On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
All threads eventually end up talking about Mvp. It is the law of SC2.
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I mean to be fair to MKP he came back form a hiatus and Dream has a reputation of being one of the best at multitasking in the world. Dream is crazy fast I take a lot of solace in the fact that MKP wasnt the one constantly attacking like he usually would he changed his whole play style AND composition to get the win. MKP who thinks a little bit more is a new thing but I believe he will be far more dangerous because of it.
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
Mvp's macro is top-notch actually. I suppose micro is hard for him given his condition, but sometimes he has really impressive splits (like the bio/Hellbat game vs Jaedong or Stephano).
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:54 Dosey wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:43 LibertyRises wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
in that game against rain, he got into a really nice position and the SCV pull is pretty much the best option there, but yea he should have gone the other direction
against dream he played really defensive until his single BC won the game rofl. can't say much for his TvZs since both were proxy raxes.
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:54 Dosey wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:43 LibertyRises wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
in that game against rain, he got into a really nice position and the SCV pull is pretty much the best option there, but yea he should have gone the other direction
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:54 Dosey wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:43 LibertyRises wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
in that game against rain, he got into a really nice position and the SCV pull is pretty much the best option there, but yea he should have gone the other direction
against dream he played really defensive until his single BC won the game rofl. can't say much for his TvZs since both were proxy raxes.
But he got into that good position by being the pitbull that he is. Rain underestimated him, didn't FF, and paid for it. Against a player like Rain (I'm assuming Rain is still considered top class Protoss?), those opportunities will be few and far between. especially if MKP falls back into his predictably aggressive ways. If he's adding variety to his play though, he could prove to be a force again.
On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
Mvp's macro is top-notch actually. I suppose micro is hard for him given his condition, but sometimes he has really impressive splits (like the bio/Hellbat game vs Jaedong or Stephano).
His macro's always been pretty fantastic - don't get me wrong he's pretty good mechanically but he just didn't have the full package of micro multitasking and macro that innovation or mma did. At least from what I've seen.
On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
Mvp's macro is top-notch actually. I suppose micro is hard for him given his condition, but sometimes he has really impressive splits (like the bio/Hellbat game vs Jaedong or Stephano).
His macro's always been pretty fantastic - don't get me wrong he's pretty good mechanically but he just didn't have the full package of micro multitasking and macro that innovation or mma did. At least from what I've seen.
Mvp is a player which showcases the most ridiculous macro or micro in times when he needs to succeed. He is a player that succeeds when he needs to. I remember the game vs a zerg on Star Station which was unbelievable, due to his wrist injury. He microed the bio army in amazing ways.
On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
All threads eventually end up talking about Mvp. It is the law of SC2.
All Hail The King of Wings
Well we yet have to see something close to his utter domination so yea, it will turn into an Mvp thread, sooner or later.
On March 04 2014 21:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Creator better than hero opter? :s
MKP's shape surprised me since he's returned, wonder how much he was playing while on his LoL hiatus. Enjoyed the clash of styles in the ace as well. MKP would be properly terrifying if he had the brain of an Mvp or Supernova but as he is he's looking pretty decent
I think mvp with any top terrans mechanics would be fucking terrifying. It's not like mvp was ever really known for being mechanically gifted (yes he could pull off what he needed to but he was no innovation).
Mvp's macro is top-notch actually. I suppose micro is hard for him given his condition, but sometimes he has really impressive splits (like the bio/Hellbat game vs Jaedong or Stephano).
His macro's always been pretty fantastic - don't get me wrong he's pretty good mechanically but he just didn't have the full package of micro multitasking and macro that innovation or mma did. At least from what I've seen.
Mvp is a player which showcases the most ridiculous macro or micro in times when he needs to succeed. He is a player that succeeds when he needs to. I remember the game vs a zerg on Star Station which was unbelievable, due to his wrist injury. He microed the bio army in amazing ways.
It was one of his games vs Stephano in the final of WCS EU, Mvp was down in economy and behind in upgrades that game, the only thing he had going for him still was a strong army, and then he pulled out micro that I only thought MKP was capable of, it was fascinating and awe inspiring to witness. So yes, Mvp can and will win when he wants to win, all hail the king!
I was in school for this one, but doesn't the ace player have to be one of the players seeded earlier? Or is there just a mistake in the OP that Rain was in the ace match, but in no prior match.
On March 04 2014 23:52 Mafab wrote: I was in school for this one, but doesn't the ace player have to be one of the players seeded earlier? Or is there just a mistake in the OP that Rain was in the ace match, but in no prior match.
Anyone on the team can play as ace even if they didn't play earlier. DRG did the same thing in round 1
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:54 Dosey wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:43 LibertyRises wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
in that game against rain, he got into a really nice position and the SCV pull is pretty much the best option there, but yea he should have gone the other direction
against dream he played really defensive until his single BC won the game rofl. can't say much for his TvZs since both were proxy raxes.
an SCV pull is the worst option if your opponent sits on 4 - 5 colossus and you have close to zero vikings. He should´ve added a 2nd starport the moment he lose his 2 medivacs early on. Then he could´ve been able to pull off an scv pull. But with one starport he needed to stretch out the game until he is ready to counter those colossi. I think all loses today were made because of some very poor judgements and mistakes: Choya could´ve taken his MSC with his army, killed the hive and got out cleanly. Fantasy would´ve had a real chance to hold the push if he had his 4 widow mines well positioned at his main line of defence, so that the improved AoE damage can stack up. State should never pursuited the units down his ramp. If he makes a hold on top of his ramp with MSC and stalkers, he can hold this easily. sOo, boy I don´t know what he thought was coming. It was so clear. Get an early spinecrawler, don´t chase down your ramp and get an earlier pool! And last but not least Marineking, who just plays his thing stubbornly as ever and doesn´t ever react to the circumstances or what his opponent is doing. I think Prime can win matches like that, but they need Creator to play as the Ace, because he seems the only one to combine enough mental, strategical and mechanical skills at the moment. (And well, the strategical component can be considered as hopeless for Marineking at this point)
On March 04 2014 21:41 opterown wrote: prime plays CJ next week, I BELIEVE IN PRIME
Prime is bound to win that match, but really that says more about CJ than it does about Prime.
Seems MKP really has given Prime a bit of a shot in the arm though, which is nice. They finally have a player who can win games and who is not named Creator.
i dno i'd say it's probably even, depends on the matchups really. creator needs to take out someone big on CJ, mkp needs a mediocre player, and then creator can take the ace since he's probably slightly better than herO
On March 04 2014 21:54 Dosey wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:43 LibertyRises wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:36 RyLai wrote: MKP threw that Ace match really hard. He forced his way through the most difficult to break position, and in the second engage he was missing 10-20 supply cause his units were split due to path-finding (fucking map awareness please).
Prime should've won this series, but MKP... Idk what happened in his head. And I don't know what was up with the casters... "MKP'S GOT TOO MUCH!" There's like 5 Colossi standing vs half a dozen bio units...
This is T v P. He was on a timer, theres ffs so no amount of mirco is going to get all your forces engaging the protoss army it never happens unless the toss is backed into the corner. T v P is about damage control on the fly man and usually for someone who displays a distinct lack of thought or foresight in his games because of his overwhelming emotion I thought he actually had a good grasp on the game and the right thought process. It wasnt a throw either. Protoss as is, is really tough for terran and considering that toss was RAIN who has mechanical ability up the ying yang it was an impressive showing.
MKP has never really had a good grasp on the game... he's just a pitbull with great mechanics. Once the better players adapt to his aggression again, he'll have a tough time winning just as before.
i dno his builds look pretty good in the maps against dream and rain, although he was a bit mechanically meh against dream
I haven't seen his other games, hell I haven't seen any Starcraft since August. But from what I saw tonight, it was the same old MKP that I remember: Bash your head against something until it breaks or breaks you.
in that game against rain, he got into a really nice position and the SCV pull is pretty much the best option there, but yea he should have gone the other direction
against dream he played really defensive until his single BC won the game rofl. can't say much for his TvZs since both were proxy raxes.
an SCV pull is the worst option if your opponent sits on 4 - 5 colossus and you have close to zero vikings. He should´ve added a 2nd starport the moment he lose his 2 medivacs early on. Then he could´ve been able to pull off an scv pull. But with one starport he needed to stretch out the game until he is ready to counter those colossi. I think all loses today were made because of some very poor judgements and mistakes: Choya could´ve taken his MSC with his army, killed the hive and got out cleanly. Fantasy would´ve had a real chance to hold the push if he had his 4 widow mines well positioned at his main line of defence, so that the improved AoE damage can stack up. State should never pursuited the units down his ramp. If he makes a hold on top of his ramp with MSC and stalkers, he can hold this easily. sOo, boy I don´t know what he thought was coming. It was so clear. Get an early spinecrawler, don´t chase down your ramp and get an earlier pool! And last but not least Marineking, who just plays his thing stubbornly as ever and doesn´t ever react to the circumstances or what his opponent is doing. I think Prime can win matches like that, but they need Creator to play as the Ace, because he seems the only one to combine enough mental, strategical and mechanical skills at the moment. (And well, the strategical component can be considered as hopeless for Marineking at this point)
Marineking isn't hopeless strategically.
He just has to go back to his greatest strength which is his ability to be unpredictable with his mechanics as something he can fall back on.
He isn't as mechanically gifted as the kinds of pros we see now, and in the seasons leading up to when he retired he had become incredibly predictable (cheese or CC first) which made him easy to deal with.
Marineking in Proleague has so far shown a pretty good variety of builds, 2 raxing vs Zerg is the only thing he's repeated and even then he did so in wildly different ways.
If he can keep that trend going, I can see him doing pretty well.
Thing is with him though is that he gambles. a LOT. He'll go for an attack someone like MVP wouldn't but that's part of what makes him strong at times.
Nothing tops what MKP did with his MM army on creep vs KyrixZenith speed banes
A lot tops that actually
What the hell are you smoking lol. I'm not a MKP fan and not a prime fan but Kyrix MKP game 2 (i think) is the best micro i have EVER seen for a terran.
But those baneling control are not good and MKP was on creep for the game against Kyriux.....
It's nowhere impressive.... the guy is rolling bane left and right and don't know what to do. No bane splits. I guess it's a foreigner with those banes ? It's not korean value (also ok kyrix was not near the level we have today. At least he splited his bane)
MarineKing was barely on the creep at all. Most of his micro was off creep in the middle of the tree things (still impressive - but not on creep)
Unless the highlight video missed that out, which I doubt it, as it would have been the main focal point of the micro
Maybe you're right.
But the baneling controls on the happy vids are just BAD (ok i'm gold) but from a watcher perspective this is bad micro for a gm with banes
Yeah it was definitely a case of "kite the ball of banes by having a section of marines close to it at all times" - I agree with you.
Not sure if you are being sarcastic because i don't really get what you are saying. My point was the marine control is good but the bane control isn't. It's just a pack of bane running arround. Not lots of small packs. But maybe i'm wrong. I don't have a good memory so...
Yeah I wasn't being sarcastic, I was agreeing with you (as I said in my post...)
I was saying that if the Terran can direct the 'a-move' clump of shit by having a small pocket of marines taking the 'agro', then they can split everything behind that clump and minimise losses. its DEFINITELY not easy and im simplifying it - but thats basically what happy did.
In addition though - In the MKP v Kyrix game, there was a part where all the banes were ahead of the roaches, and you could assume he was targetting them, but he may very well have just been stutter stepping and they were being auto'd as they were the closest thread to the marines (i dont think the roaches were in range or were targetting priority if they were)
Again, its not easy to do, and people make out that they can do it (like great blink micro)
Yeah it looks like you can do it, but when youre playing on a stage, infront of many, whilst macroing your shit, doing harass, and pulling that off - its impressive and it shits me when people think otherwise.
EPT
