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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 06 2014 22:50 Ghanburighan wrote:Where did Rogue come from? I've seen him a lot recently, and he plays scary good, but he just appeared from nowhere.
Rogue (formerly Savage, Ryul2) was a mediocre player on Team 8's roster during the last proleague. Showed a bit of promise but hardly anything spectacular save for a few games.
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On February 06 2014 22:51 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:50 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
Edited.
And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big.  Come on, TOP was´nt that bad, he had some pretty good series and runs during his career. It's debatable, I've seen TOP lose to low-tier European players in the past year or so.
Of course he isn't that good now. But during 2011 he was one of the (pun def. intended) TOP terran players, just below Mvp/MKP.
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On February 06 2014 22:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:38 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 Destructicon wrote:
Protoss is doing well now left, right and center, they are winning qualifiers, they are winning tournaments and they are winning online cups too. Not sure there is much arguing to be had against that at this point. However, there aren't a million "new" Protoss players that are winning stuff. It's mostly the same guys - just as when the same Terrans were winning everything in 2011. The best of the P should be winning tournaments because they win against mediocre P, right? And if the problem is only in PvT, good Z like Soulkey should be taking out mediocre P as well. So, you shouldn't look at who wins, but who wins against who and where the representation lies in the end. For example, Code A does have some rather surprising P like Yonghwa, Myungsik, Panic and Paralyze. These guys were not considered as Code S contenders a little while ago, in fact, they were relatively unknown. Now, in this tournament, Paralyze beat Maru, while the latter is considered the best TvP player on the planet. Edit: too many responses to this stuff. That's enough I think.
How can you put Yonghwa in that list, he has been around for ages now and has been worth a lot for IM in teamleagues. Besides that, stuff like Paralyze beating Maru just happens during online qualifiers. If you look at the history of IEM qualifiers, there have always been a few weird results in there. Or take WCS qualifiers for example, where Diestar eliminated First. Stuff like that just happens from time to time.
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Complete and utter domination by PartinG. I kinda like it, but god dammit Soulkey make him work for that spot! 
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4713 Posts
On February 06 2014 22:52 NovaMB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:50 Destructicon wrote:On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten  CranK, Rain  Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round Wtf, Rogue was playing under the name Climax? He was Savage, switched to CliMax and then switched to Rogue.
Man, that's one hell of an identity crisis, thanks.
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On February 06 2014 22:52 Zealously wrote:
If you don't follow the Korean scene extremely closely, you might find results you think are illogical and chalk it up to imbalances. I'm saying don't do that. In most cases the players were extremely good anyway.
Quoted for fucking truth.
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4-gate for Parting? 
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could anyone plz briefly summarize the parting vs soulkey games for those at work?
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On February 06 2014 22:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:52 Zealously wrote:
If you don't follow the Korean scene extremely closely, you might find results you think are illogical and chalk it up to imbalances. I'm saying don't do that. In most cases the players were extremely good anyway. Quoted for fucking truth.
Agreed. People yelling "PROTOSS OP!" when players like San/Parting are winning are just mindlessly repeating the current circlejerk hive mind.
Anyway, loving Parting's play today, he is on fire and clearly out for blood. Wow.
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On February 06 2014 22:53 Doublemint wrote:Complete and utter domination by PartinG. I kinda like it, but god dammit Soulkey make him work for that spot!
Apollo is right, you can be perfectly fine being behind on bases as long you are stable on 3. Make mass static def, slowly increase SH count, play very conservatively and make sure you have creep spread and static defense before taking new expos.
SK just played that too aggressively. I've seen Stephano be down 2 bases to 4 vs toss and still win. It's all about conserving units and maxing out with the proper composition. You can max out AND build a bank on 3 bases as zerg as long as you are careful enough.
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On February 06 2014 22:53 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten CranK, Rain Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round Where did Rogue come from? I've seen him a lot recently, and he plays scary good, but he just appeared from nowhere. Rogue (formerly Savage, Ryul2) was a mediocre player on Team 8's roster during the last proleague. Showed a bit of promise but hardly anything spectacular save for a few games.
Ah, he's Savage. Ok.
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On February 06 2014 22:56 Tsubbi wrote:
could anyone plz briefly summarize the parting vs soulkey games for those at work?
![[image loading]](http://www.mybrokenfiat.com/uploads/7/3/4/6/7346785/1445429.jpg)
edit: of course I make this post right before Parting loses to speedlings walking into his base lol
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On February 06 2014 22:53 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:51 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:50 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big. Come on, TOP was´nt that bad, he had some pretty good series and runs during his career. It's debatable, I've seen TOP lose to low-tier European players in the past year or so. Of course he isn't that good now. But during 2011 he was one of the (pun def. intended) TOP terran players, just below Mvp/MKP.
According to our Aligulac statistics, before his GSL August finals TOP was rated #28 in the world, and in the Terran roster he was eclipsed, in order of rating, by Mvp, PuMa, Bomber, MMA, GanZi, MarineKing, Strelok, Ryung, Kas, GoOdy, TheStC, TaeJa, GuMiHo, Polt and SuperNoVa. All of which good players, sure, but still...
You can find the stats here, once again this being 3 days before the GSL August 2011 finals.
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On February 06 2014 22:51 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:50 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
Edited.
And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big. Come on, TOP was´nt that bad, he had some pretty good series and runs during his career. It's debatable, I've seen TOP lose to low-tier European players in the past year or so.
Not saying, he is good now. But during his Prime, he had victories over Byun, sC, aLive,SuNo, Nestea, Polt and more.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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quick! someone lower the game speed!
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4713 Posts
Soulkey strikes back, looks like we've got ourselves a game on our hands.
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On February 06 2014 22:52 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:47 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:38 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 Destructicon wrote:
Protoss is doing well now left, right and center, they are winning qualifiers, they are winning tournaments and they are winning online cups too. Not sure there is much arguing to be had against that at this point. However, there aren't a million "new" Protoss players that are winning stuff. It's mostly the same guys - just as when the same Terrans were winning everything in 2011. The best of the P should be winning tournaments because they win against mediocre P, right? And if the problem is only in PvT, good Z like Soulkey should be taking out mediocre P as well. So, you shouldn't look at who wins, but who wins against who and where the representation lies in the end. For example, Code A does have some rather surprising P like Yonghwa, Myungsik, Panic and Paralyze. These guys were not considered as Code S contenders a little while ago, in fact, they were relatively unknown. Now, in this tournament, Paralyze beat Maru, while the latter is considered the best TvP player on the planet. I'm saying that the whole "Protoss is OP"-debate comes down to people in 90% of the cases simply not knowing the players that are showing up. It's largely the same discussion that people were having when Zerg players were having their fair share of success in late 2012/early 2013. If you don't follow the Korean scene extremely closely, you might find results you think are illogical and chalk it up to imbalances. I'm saying don't do that. In most cases the players were extremely good anyway.
ALL the players on the korean pro teams at extremely good. And have a protoss from that group 'break out' is not surprising regardless of the meta/balance. But when you have 10 protosses 'breaking out' and 2-3 terrans, there must be a reason why. So you can't just look at a specific match and say balance was the reason for losing. But when you look at the trend in general, you have to consider this factor.
I mean look at Yoda, a great player. But did the hell bat nerf hurt him, most likely. Is it JUST the nerf, of course not. But to say game balance has NOTHING to do with a player's performance is not correct either.
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Looks like we'll need a picture of Robin slapping Batman now
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EPT
