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On February 06 2014 22:47 Shellshock wrote:
Rogue clearly the best player on Jin Air
Ryul2 new zerg bonjwa confirmed.
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On February 06 2014 22:38 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:36 Destructicon wrote:
Protoss is doing well now left, right and center, they are winning qualifiers, they are winning tournaments and they are winning online cups too. Not sure there is much arguing to be had against that at this point. However, there aren't a million "new" Protoss players that are winning stuff. It's mostly the same guys - just as when the same Terrans were winning everything in 2011.
The best of the P should be winning tournaments because they win against mediocre P, right? And if the problem is only in PvT, good Z like Soulkey should be taking out mediocre P as well. So, you shouldn't look at who wins, but who wins against who and where the representation lies in the end. For example, Code A does have some rather surprising P like Yonghwa, Myungsik, Panic and Paralyze. These guys were not considered as Code S contenders a little while ago, in fact, they were relatively unknown. Now, in this tournament, Paralyze beat Maru, while the latter is considered the best TvP player on the planet.
Edit: too many responses to this stuff. That's enough I think.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On February 06 2014 22:47 Shellshock wrote:
Rogue clearly the best player on Jin Air
He's gonna all kill SKT
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On February 06 2014 22:42 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:09 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, third premier level tournament in a row (after Asus and IEM Sao Paulo) with no terrans in the top 4. And that's on top of the Code A result.
And blink was shown to be unchanged in potency. Since when is an online qualifier considered a premier tournament in and of itself? also this: On February 06 2014 22:11 NovaMB wrote:
ASUS and IEM had a Terran each in the semis (ForGG, jjakji) Edited. And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. It's fine that you don't agree with Pigbaby, Trust and Paralyze being in the Ro16 - but you really need to read up on Hurricane and Zest.
Again, I am not saying they are bad players. And the top of the korean player pool is so close that I wouldn't disagree on any of those 5 make it. But to have ALL 5 make it is something else.
Let's try this, list of all the players that you feel has a chance to do well in a tournament (not necessary win, but do well). With terran, your list might go 10 deep, with protoss, it will be in the 20 range.
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At least Terran won some TvTs 
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Rogue has beaten  CranK, Rain  Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:09 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, third premier level tournament in a row (after Asus and IEM Sao Paulo) with no terrans in the top 4. And that's on top of the Code A result.
And blink was shown to be unchanged in potency. Since when is an online qualifier considered a premier tournament in and of itself? also this: On February 06 2014 22:11 NovaMB wrote:
ASUS and IEM had a Terran each in the semis (ForGG, jjakji) Edited. And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big. 
Come on, TOP was´nt that bad, he had some pretty good series and runs during his career.
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On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten CranK, Rain Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round
Where did Rogue come from? I've seen him a lot recently, and he plays scary good, but he just appeared from nowhere.
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On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten CranK, Rain Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round
That's a pretty swell kill list there O_o. Seems to be quite on fire.
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4713 Posts
On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten CranK, Rain Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round
Wtf, Rogue was playing under the name Climax?
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On February 06 2014 22:47 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:47 Shellshock wrote:
Rogue clearly the best player on Jin Air He's gonna all kill SKT
he completely dodged ZvT in this qualifier though. And also only played one ZvZ against sacsri. He's the Protoss-killer!
Edit: I just realized that SKT probably won't field a Terran either. So gogo Rogue all-kill :D
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On February 06 2014 22:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:38 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 Destructicon wrote:
Protoss is doing well now left, right and center, they are winning qualifiers, they are winning tournaments and they are winning online cups too. Not sure there is much arguing to be had against that at this point. However, there aren't a million "new" Protoss players that are winning stuff. It's mostly the same guys - just as when the same Terrans were winning everything in 2011. The best of the P should be winning tournaments because they win against mediocre P, right? And if the problem is only in PvT, good Z like Soulkey should be taking out mediocre P as well. So, you shouldn't look at who wins, but who wins against who and where the representation lies in the end. For example, Code A does have some rather surprising P like Yonghwa, Myungsik, Panic and Paralyze. These guys were not considered as Code S contenders a little while ago, in fact, they were relatively unknown. Now, in this tournament, Paralyze beat Maru, while the latter is considered the best TvP player on the planet. Edit: too many responses to this stuff. That's enough I think.
YongHwa is only "relatively unknown" to the untrained viewer's eye, he's been one of the most underrate Protoss in SC2 history. When he plays well he looks top 3, and when he doesn't we're reminded why most viewers haven't heard too much of him, but to look at results alone and not games when you assess that is a little silly.
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On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:09 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, third premier level tournament in a row (after Asus and IEM Sao Paulo) with no terrans in the top 4. And that's on top of the Code A result.
And blink was shown to be unchanged in potency. Since when is an online qualifier considered a premier tournament in and of itself? also this: On February 06 2014 22:11 NovaMB wrote:
ASUS and IEM had a Terran each in the semis (ForGG, jjakji) Edited. And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big.
TOP was at a GSL finals when 1-1-1 was in its prime...
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On February 06 2014 22:50 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Since when is an online qualifier considered a premier tournament in and of itself?
also this:
[quote]
Edited. And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big. Come on, TOP was´nt that bad, he had some pretty good series and runs during his career.
It's debatable, I've seen TOP lose to low-tier European players in the past year or so.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 06 2014 22:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:38 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 Destructicon wrote:
Protoss is doing well now left, right and center, they are winning qualifiers, they are winning tournaments and they are winning online cups too. Not sure there is much arguing to be had against that at this point. However, there aren't a million "new" Protoss players that are winning stuff. It's mostly the same guys - just as when the same Terrans were winning everything in 2011. The best of the P should be winning tournaments because they win against mediocre P, right? And if the problem is only in PvT, good Z like Soulkey should be taking out mediocre P as well. So, you shouldn't look at who wins, but who wins against who and where the representation lies in the end. For example, Code A does have some rather surprising P like Yonghwa, Myungsik, Panic and Paralyze. These guys were not considered as Code S contenders a little while ago, in fact, they were relatively unknown. Now, in this tournament, Paralyze beat Maru, while the latter is considered the best TvP player on the planet.
I'm saying that the whole "Protoss is OP"-debate comes down to people in 90% of the cases simply not knowing the players that are showing up. It's largely the same discussion that people were having when Zerg players were having their fair share of success in late 2012/early 2013. If you don't follow the Korean scene extremely closely, you might find results you think are illogical and chalk it up to imbalances. I'm saying don't do that. In most cases the players were extremely good anyway.
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On February 06 2014 22:50 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:45 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:42 vthree wrote:On February 06 2014 22:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:33 Xoronius wrote:On February 06 2014 22:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:19 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 06 2014 22:15 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 22:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Since when is an online qualifier considered a premier tournament in and of itself?
also this:
[quote]
Edited. And I'm not saying that this qualifier is a premier event, I'm saying that it's of comparable level - which is due to the representation and overall prize pool at the end. Korean tosses have always (and I do mean *always*, never forget how Creator and Squirtle among many others got started) done very well in online qualifiers and events and for the most part have failed to deliver in the actual main tournament. But whatever, infer what you want, it's no use discussing balance here. I don't think the 'failed to deliver in the main tournament' has been the case for about six months now. If we look at this tournament, it's Parting and Sora again, who did well at previous events they attended. The fact, that it is PartinG and Sora again, should show you, that those two are consistent players, not just two random guys, who are there because of their race. That's exactly what I was saying - the same guys who do well in these qualifiers are the same that do well in Premier events, but MoP was trying to argue that they result of the qualifier is somehow non-representative of current balance because P does worse in offline main events. So how is Protoss overpowered if it's only the already-established GOOD players who are doing well? Pigbaby, Hurricane, Trust, Zest, Paralyze all made Ro16. Are they BAD players? Of course not. But does P's current strength help them get a bit further in brackets? Of course. Just like guys like IMHappy, TOP, Ensnare, Virus probably wouldn't have done as well if not for 1-1-1. Tear, Trust and Wooki have all had their share of success in the past. They are in no way, shape or form comparable to players like TOP, Ensnare and Virus. If anything the reason those players remained in Code S was because of the abysmal system rather than race imbalance. If GSL back then worked like it does now, I assure you Happy would've been the only of those you mentioned still in Code S when the 1-1-1 trend got big. TOP was at a GSL finals when 1-1-1 was in its prime...
Ok, if you see MyungSik or Paralyze or Panic in the finals this GSL season you can call me a retard, but until then....
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4713 Posts
Damn, some sexy moves during this PartinG vs Soulkey game, you guys are debating too much and not watching enough.
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On February 06 2014 22:52 NovaMB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 22:50 Destructicon wrote:On February 06 2014 22:49 NovaMB wrote:Rogue has beaten CranK, Rain Sacsri, Zest and Sora on his way to the final. And some poor Australian in the first round Wtf, Rogue was playing under the name Climax? He was Savage, switched to CliMax and then switched to Rogue.
He was Ryul2 first and foremost... 
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EPT
