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United States23455 Posts
On January 23 2014 23:32 Ammanas wrote:
Anyway, would anyone expect Reality to beat Sora at all, considering history of both?
this is very true. Reality has a 48% TvP winrate on aligulac (worst matchup) whereas Sora has a 75% winrate in PvT (best matchup). Reality hasn't won a TvP since October and since that win he is 0-7 against 7 different protoss players including Tassadar. Meanwhile Sora is 11/13 in his recent PvT's beating players like Flash, Dream, and Bbyong.
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On January 23 2014 23:03 Elite_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:41 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:40 Hopelessnoob wrote:
that win was disgusting... 3 terrans T.T Don't worry. Ryung and Dream will crush the Zergs tomorrow. not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow  Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Ryung has some trouble with late game TvZ, but TRUE doesn't even build an Infestation Pit in the match-up so Ryung shouldn't have a problem with him, and he'll beat Dream in the winner's match. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 22:01 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On January 23 2014 22:00 BlackCompany wrote:On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:41 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:40 Hopelessnoob wrote:
that win was disgusting... 3 terrans T.T Don't worry. Ryung and Dream will crush the Zergs tomorrow. not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Havnt seen a lot from Hydra, but i'd say Ryung only advances if he manages to somehow get Hack in a TvT for a spot. Otherwise True/Hack looks like a safe bet Wasnt Dream very hyped by all when the 4M movement began? I havent heard from him since then. Dream was hyped as a TvP beast at the end of WoL after this tournament. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VII_-_Katowiceand he's still a beast in TvP as well as TvZ. The only reason we don't see him in Code S all the time is because he's weak in TvT... and he gets nervous sometimes. All the Koreans know he's a practice bonjwa.
Yeah, now i remember, it was a nice run.
I went through his aligulac file and its just as you said, he is quite strong in TvZ and TvP, so there is hope that he will advance :D. Dream fighting!
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On January 23 2014 23:40 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:32 Ammanas wrote:
Anyway, would anyone expect Reality to beat Sora at all, considering history of both? this is very true. Reality has a 48% TvP winrate on aligulac (worst matchup) whereas Sora has a 75% winrate in PvT (best matchup). Reality hasn't won a TvP since October and since that win he is 0-7 against 7 different protoss players including Tassadar. Meanwhile Sora is 11/13 in his recent PvT's beating players like Flash, Dream, and Bbyong.
Yeah, I mean... sure, there is an edge for protoss in PvT matchup, there's not denying that. Besides maybe minor balance tweaks that are needed, things like map pool and metagame are heavily contributing towards that.
But the worst thing for me is that people now just circlejerk about terrans losing and not for one second stop and think about whether the protoss players are actually good. They are completely neglecting the fact, that those protoss players would probably win anyway - herO is one of the best protoss on the planet, Sora is the biggest hypetrain since DRG and everyone who followed last years Proleague has known that Classic will make a huge splash this year. Yonghwa was always capable of beating the best opponents, Squirtle is Code S player since forever and Zest + Stats are very good in their own right.
So yeah, while all of them HAD a slight advantage in the matchup, it's still a big accomplishment and it actually pains me that everyone is attributing that to only the balance and not to the players skill whatsoever.
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On January 23 2014 23:24 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 22:14 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 22:05 -Celestial- wrote:
Zerg is currently at a 7/11 64% rate of qualifying to Code S. Roughly on par with the 11/16 69% qualification rate for Protoss.
And yet Terrans only complain about one of these. Bias much. ofc Terran is complaining about Protoss. Only a single bo3 has been won in a TvP and it was really close with the protoss totally shitting the bed (even lost to mech). Gumiho, Bbyong, and Supernova (4-0 vs Coca even) all won their TvZs. Hack, Bravo, Cure, and especially theBest all losing at the hands of zerg is understandable given their ability and who they played. You know what ? It was pretty much what I said back in 2011. The only difference is that I didn't bash the terrans who won. And it was not only one season, it was a vast majority of the GSL seasons in 2011 in which terrans doubled the number of protoss, including GSL October when there were 20 terrans in code S RO32 for 5 P, only 1 P making it to the RO16. I wasn't even whining hard, just saying facts. And yet I was like a heretic here, people being like "terrans are just naturally better" or shit like this. Of course I understand your frustration, I really do. I don't say I want a revenge because P has seemed unfavored in the past. Not at all. That would be so stupid. Actually I really hope TvP gets fixed (either by a meta change or a patch). Back in 2011 I wish I would have been told this and not being bashed for saying I was frustrated.
Protoss lost their 5s storm warpin base defense (kaydarin nerf). The Code A / UD / Code S structure delayed the effect for Code S. (Plus at the beginning of sc2 many top players choose T / nowadays imo its more even cause there are established star players for all races.)
Imo its a matter of maybe one month, then we will see P nerfs from Blizz.
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On January 23 2014 23:42 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:03 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:41 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:40 Hopelessnoob wrote:
that win was disgusting... 3 terrans T.T Don't worry. Ryung and Dream will crush the Zergs tomorrow. not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Ryung has some trouble with late game TvZ, but TRUE doesn't even build an Infestation Pit in the match-up so Ryung shouldn't have a problem with him, and he'll beat Dream in the winner's match. On January 23 2014 22:01 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On January 23 2014 22:00 BlackCompany wrote:On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:41 Elite_ wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry. Ryung and Dream will crush the Zergs tomorrow. not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Havnt seen a lot from Hydra, but i'd say Ryung only advances if he manages to somehow get Hack in a TvT for a spot. Otherwise True/Hack looks like a safe bet Wasnt Dream very hyped by all when the 4M movement began? I havent heard from him since then. Dream was hyped as a TvP beast at the end of WoL after this tournament. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VII_-_Katowiceand he's still a beast in TvP as well as TvZ. The only reason we don't see him in Code S all the time is because he's weak in TvT... and he gets nervous sometimes. All the Koreans know he's a practice bonjwa. Yeah, now i remember, it was a nice run. I went through his aligulac file and its just as you said, he is quite strong in TvZ and TvP, so there is hope that he will advance :D. Dream fighting!
Who knows? With the extreme lack of Terran players Dream could win this season of Code S. ;o
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you don't need to nerf P. Just make maps bad for blink
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As of now idk if Sora is pretty good or what. A few months ago i would say Sora is pretty good but with the current situation of tvp and the state of protoss in particular. I am doubtful he is that good from what i am thinking or is just benefiting the current state of the game right now like how other zergs beat other player who are far beyond their level during BL-Infestor . Maybe i am underrating him but it is hard to not to underrate a protoss right now.
Though i didn't doubt Reality would lose to Sora since i feel like Sora is overall better than Reality. I guess.
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On January 23 2014 23:51 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:40 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 23 2014 23:32 Ammanas wrote:
Anyway, would anyone expect Reality to beat Sora at all, considering history of both? this is very true. Reality has a 48% TvP winrate on aligulac (worst matchup) whereas Sora has a 75% winrate in PvT (best matchup). Reality hasn't won a TvP since October and since that win he is 0-7 against 7 different protoss players including Tassadar. Meanwhile Sora is 11/13 in his recent PvT's beating players like Flash, Dream, and Bbyong. Yeah, I mean... sure, there is an edge for protoss in PvT matchup, there's not denying that. Besides maybe minor balance tweaks that are needed, things like map pool and metagame are heavily contributing towards that. But the worst thing for me is that people now just circlejerk about terrans losing and not for one second stop and think about whether the protoss players are actually good. They are completely neglecting the fact, that those protoss players would probably win anyway - herO is one of the best protoss on the planet, Sora is the biggest hypetrain since DRG and everyone who followed last years Proleague has known that Classic will make a huge splash this year. Yonghwa was always capable of beating the best opponents, Squirtle is Code S player since forever and Zest + Stats are very good in their own right. So yeah, while all of them HAD a slight advantage in the matchup, it's still a big accomplishment and it actually pains me that everyone is attributing that to only the balance and not to the players skill whatsoever.
Squirtle....c'mon,r u gonna say younghwa and all the other toss players who advanced? does it ever occur in your mind that since when there're so many talented,most skilled non-terran players esp when they play against terrans,
oh wait, since nerf of mine and hellbat
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On January 23 2014 23:57 Elite_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:42 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On January 23 2014 23:03 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:41 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:40 Hopelessnoob wrote:
that win was disgusting... 3 terrans T.T Don't worry. Ryung and Dream will crush the Zergs tomorrow. not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Ryung has some trouble with late game TvZ, but TRUE doesn't even build an Infestation Pit in the match-up so Ryung shouldn't have a problem with him, and he'll beat Dream in the winner's match. On January 23 2014 22:01 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On January 23 2014 22:00 BlackCompany wrote:On January 23 2014 21:54 Shellshock wrote:On January 23 2014 21:53 Tchado wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 Elite_ wrote:On January 23 2014 21:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 23 2014 21:43 Tchado wrote:
[quote]
not a fucking chance Dream could do it if he's in prime form. Especially given how unimpressive Hydra's been in SPL. Ryung, I'm afraid, is a dead man Nope. Ryung will advance from his group in first place. Yeah and I'm a blue eye white dragon. No terran will advance tomorrow Group seems fairly wide open to me imo. I think Ryung was struggling a little with zerg before but that was a few months ago so idk how he's doing now. Personally I went with TRUE and Dream because I think Dream has very good TvZ Havnt seen a lot from Hydra, but i'd say Ryung only advances if he manages to somehow get Hack in a TvT for a spot. Otherwise True/Hack looks like a safe bet Wasnt Dream very hyped by all when the 4M movement began? I havent heard from him since then. Dream was hyped as a TvP beast at the end of WoL after this tournament. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VII_-_Katowiceand he's still a beast in TvP as well as TvZ. The only reason we don't see him in Code S all the time is because he's weak in TvT... and he gets nervous sometimes. All the Koreans know he's a practice bonjwa. Yeah, now i remember, it was a nice run. I went through his aligulac file and its just as you said, he is quite strong in TvZ and TvP, so there is hope that he will advance :D. Dream fighting! Who knows? With the extreme lack of Terran players Dream could win this season of Code S. ;o
Man, that would be awesome! PvP is coinflippy enough to screw a few PvT experts. But i guess that he would then be forgotten like Seed and Jjakji.
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On January 23 2014 21:42 shadymmj wrote:
i try to refrain from making balance comments, but doesn't anyone notice that all sora does is defend with warp ins, POs and frankly uncallable mind games such as if and when he will all-in, and then takes just one engagement to win? all the drops were deflected with ease despite sora's army not being in a good position, nor did he really scout them. hack was undoubtedly the more active player there.
So players should never be allowed to win by defending the whole game or what?
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On January 23 2014 23:51 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:40 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 23 2014 23:32 Ammanas wrote:
Anyway, would anyone expect Reality to beat Sora at all, considering history of both? this is very true. Reality has a 48% TvP winrate on aligulac (worst matchup) whereas Sora has a 75% winrate in PvT (best matchup). Reality hasn't won a TvP since October and since that win he is 0-7 against 7 different protoss players including Tassadar. Meanwhile Sora is 11/13 in his recent PvT's beating players like Flash, Dream, and Bbyong. Yeah, I mean... sure, there is an edge for protoss in PvT matchup, there's not denying that. Besides maybe minor balance tweaks that are needed, things like map pool and metagame are heavily contributing towards that. But the worst thing for me is that people now just circlejerk about terrans losing and not for one second stop and think about whether the protoss players are actually good. They are completely neglecting the fact, that those protoss players would probably win anyway - herO is one of the best protoss on the planet, Sora is the biggest hypetrain since DRG and everyone who followed last years Proleague has known that Classic will make a huge splash this year. Yonghwa was always capable of beating the best opponents, Squirtle is Code S player since forever and Zest + Stats are very good in their own right. So yeah, while all of them HAD a slight advantage in the matchup, it's still a big accomplishment and it actually pains me that everyone is attributing that to only the balance and not to the players skill whatsoever.
There is no denying that Protosses in Code S are some of the best players in the world. The problem, I feel, is that our assessment of player skill is quite dependent on how the race globally does (be it pure strength, being ahead in the metagame, maps, etc..). Like, I, Terran player, would probably consider Reality as mediocre (because let's face it, he loses a lot) and Sora quite good, because he wins shit, but I think I should wait a bit before calling every Protoss who wins a TvP godly and every Terran who loses a TvP awful, if you don't mind.
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Seeing these games, I feel like there's two things wrong in the TvP matchup.
Speed boost medivacs need to go or be significantly nerfed, and the radius of EMP should be reduced by one. To make this a fair matchup, you can't give one race all the mobility and make the other rely on a weaker version of the (OP) PF.
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On January 24 2014 00:06 1nnovation wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:51 Ammanas wrote:On January 23 2014 23:40 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 23 2014 23:32 Ammanas wrote:
Anyway, would anyone expect Reality to beat Sora at all, considering history of both? this is very true. Reality has a 48% TvP winrate on aligulac (worst matchup) whereas Sora has a 75% winrate in PvT (best matchup). Reality hasn't won a TvP since October and since that win he is 0-7 against 7 different protoss players including Tassadar. Meanwhile Sora is 11/13 in his recent PvT's beating players like Flash, Dream, and Bbyong. Yeah, I mean... sure, there is an edge for protoss in PvT matchup, there's not denying that. Besides maybe minor balance tweaks that are needed, things like map pool and metagame are heavily contributing towards that. But the worst thing for me is that people now just circlejerk about terrans losing and not for one second stop and think about whether the protoss players are actually good. They are completely neglecting the fact, that those protoss players would probably win anyway - herO is one of the best protoss on the planet, Sora is the biggest hypetrain since DRG and everyone who followed last years Proleague has known that Classic will make a huge splash this year. Yonghwa was always capable of beating the best opponents, Squirtle is Code S player since forever and Zest + Stats are very good in their own right. So yeah, while all of them HAD a slight advantage in the matchup, it's still a big accomplishment and it actually pains me that everyone is attributing that to only the balance and not to the players skill whatsoever. Squirtle....c'mon,r u gonna say younghwa and all the other toss players who advanced? does it ever occur in your mind that since when there're so many talented,most skilled non-terran players esp when they play against terrans, oh wait, since nerf of mine and hellbat
I'm going to attempt to decipher this as you whining that there aren't any Terran players considered skilled because they have been weak for a while which is hiding their true skill. I would like to point out that most of the good Korean Terrans ran off to the other WCS regions.
Bomber, Polt, Taeja, MMA, Mvp, Jjakji, among other Terrans who have left Korea to play in Europe and America. Compared to the number of Protoss who made the switch... Duckdeok. Then he retired. Innovation should have made Code S, but his TvP has been deceptively weak for a while, losing to Naniwa in the Season 2 finals, Duckdeok at Blizzcon among other surpririsng losses. Flash has struggled heavily in individual leagues ever since he made the switch, his grand achievement is finishing last in the group of death and almost beating Life at MLG when Terran was considered stronger and the game had just been released. None of these other Terrans have ever been higher quality then low-tier Code S player or journeyman Code A qualifier.
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Also: for every Terran who you'll consider good at TvP, I will probably find 10 Protosses you consider good at PvT.
Conversely, for every Protoss you consider bad at PvT, I will put down my pants and go get ass-raped by a boar.
Protip: I'm not taking any risks.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 24 2014 01:10 ZenithM wrote:
Also: for every Terran who you'll consider good at TvP, I will probably find 10 Protosses you consider good at PvT.
Conversely, for every Protoss you consider bad at PvT, I will put down my pants and go get ass-raped by a boar.
Protip: I'm not taking any risks.
Creator: 9-19
Stork: 3-6
Terminator: 2-6
Hurricane: 13-14
Pigbaby: 2-4
eMotion: 7-10
sOs: 21-22
Tassadar: 7-11
CranK: 19-25
Billowy: 4-4
will it be an orgy sir
terrans with ~60% TvP
Taeja
Maru
jjakji
Innovation
MMA
Polt
TY
Bbyong
so 80 PvT masters plz
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United States23455 Posts
On January 24 2014 01:10 ZenithM wrote:
Also: for every Terran who you'll consider good at TvP, I will probably find 10 Protosses you consider good at PvT.
Conversely, for every Protoss you consider bad at PvT, I will put down my pants and go get ass-raped by a boar.
Protip: I'm not taking any risks.
Creator is kind of bad at PvT. The only terrans he's beaten since June 2013 are hanbin, Labyrinth, Legend, and Bunny. He even just lost to eins in the IEM Cologne qualifiers.
I dunno where you're going to find a boar, but I'd recommend backing out of this deal.
EDIT: fucking lichter stealing my thunder.
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Fucking Creator, refusing to cheese and all-in like everybody.
+ Show Spoiler +It's ![[image loading]](http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/84223080-300x231.jpg) time!
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On January 24 2014 01:28 ZenithM wrote:Fucking Creator, refusing to cheese and all-in like everybody. + Show Spoiler +It's time!
I look forward to seeing the next picture.
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On January 24 2014 01:06 SixStrings wrote:
Seeing these games, I feel like there's two things wrong in the TvP matchup.
Speed boost medivacs need to go or be significantly nerfed, and the radius of EMP should be reduced by one. To make this a fair matchup, you can't give one race all the mobility and make the other rely on a weaker version of the (OP) PF.
Back in my days trolling meant something.
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EPT
