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On September 16 2013 13:17 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:13 geokilla wrote:
Just watched MMA vs Innovation... The finals should have been MMA vs Taeja. MMA clearly outplayed Innovation in game 1 and 2. The finals wouldn't have been so one sided if it was Taeja vs Innovation. If only MMA didn't make that one mistake. It's not outplaying someone if you fuck up.
As much as I like INnoVation he is right. MMA outplayed INnoVation in every possible way but all it takes in TvT is a mistake and it can cost you the game. It was relatively equal to INnoVation vs Bomber on Star Station. Bomber got severely outplayed but INnoVation was out of position once to guard his 4th (instead of 3rd), lost game immediately.
I am not saying MMA deserved to be in the final, because he lost 1-2 in the end, but saying he didn't outplay INnoVation in game 2 is far from the truth as well.
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It's funny how on one page you can have people discussing how SC2 is so volatile and then have people lamenting that Innovation consistently can't beat top terran players (Taeja in particular). This argument seems to flip all the time. One minute you have people complaining because foreigners are simply unable to compete and it's always the same Koreans winning everything and then you have people complaining that the metagame is too volatile (what do you expect this early in an expansion?).
It's over exaggerated anyway. We have seen people show consistent levels of results (MVP, MC and nestea were on top for ages). Innovation, Taeja players like this have been right near the top for some time now. For the most part every tournament it's the same old faces that keep on popping up. Innovation in particular consistently looks like the best TvP and TvZ player but just can't crack TvT.
I'm not sure what people want anyway. Having a very competitive field where multiple people can win isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not all sports are dominated by a handful of players/teams and i quite enjoy when that's the case.
There are legitimate complaints to be made around the current metagame and certain matchups (PvT needs an overhaul) but the complaint about volatility just doesn't hold any ground imo.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I don't understand people who complain about "one mistake costs you the game" (not calling out anyone in particular here). It happens in many many sports. If you don't build up enough of an advantage, it can happen.
You can dominate possession 80-20 in a football game and be up 1-0 with 10 seconds left. All it takes is one defensive lapse on a corner to throw away 2 points.
You can be up 10 rounds in a Boxing match, but all it takes is one punch to knock you out.
You can be ahead an entire lap in a race, and all it takes is one wrong turn to spin out of the lead.
It happens in wars, too, and SC2 is basically a future-war game.
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On September 16 2013 07:28 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 07:27 Loxley wrote:On September 16 2013 07:26 ThomasjServo wrote:On September 16 2013 07:25 Draconicfire wrote:
Is.
Is that TLO. aye, a lot of if not all of TL was there for the bracket and SC2L Where is ret? He is there, not sure if he was on stage or not but he was last night for the grand finals which liquid won. TLO remarked, "Jos, really didn't want to play." and he was next to.... HerO.
He was there, but wasn't that outgoing at all. Just hanging around with his gf and being somewhat sad (that's how it looked to me).
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On September 16 2013 15:24 lichter wrote:
I don't understand people who complain about "one mistake costs you the game" (not calling out anyone in particular here). It happens in many many sports. If you don't build up enough of an advantage, it can happen.
You can dominate possession 80-20 in a football game and be up 1-0 with 10 seconds left. All it takes is one defensive lapse on a corner to throw away 2 points.
You can be up 10 rounds in a Boxing match, but all it takes is one punch to knock you out.
You can be ahead an entire lap in a race, and all it takes is one wrong turn to spin out of the lead.
It happens in wars, too, and SC2 is basically a future-war game.
Do you know what all of your examples have in common? Luck. In football you would simply call it lucky. In boxing its a lucky punch. In racing its bad luck.
The difference in it is, MMA severely outplayed him through the game. He was as ahead as you can potentially be without finishing your opponent and frankly he didn't make a mistake that would warrant a huge advantage turning into a loss instantly. I can see why you see no concern here, but people don't like that its so volatile. I don't think someone should lead a game 30 minutes and lose it becauce he wasn't set up perfectly right then.
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On September 16 2013 15:24 lichter wrote:
I don't understand people who complain about "one mistake costs you the game" (not calling out anyone in particular here). It happens in many many sports. If you don't build up enough of an advantage, it can happen.
You can dominate possession 80-20 in a football game and be up 1-0 with 10 seconds left. All it takes is one defensive lapse on a corner to throw away 2 points.
You can be up 10 rounds in a Boxing match, but all it takes is one punch to knock you out.
You can be ahead an entire lap in a race, and all it takes is one wrong turn to spin out of the lead.
It happens in wars, too, and SC2 is basically a future-war game.
Yeah I agree with you and that's also what makes this game exciting.
But I can understand people getting upset when you favourite goes out this way. It happens in real sports and wars too, but people also comlain then  . Jaedong should've won and MMA too, it's nice the game makes comebacks possible, but let the fans complain, that's how it goes.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 16 2013 15:31 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:24 lichter wrote:
I don't understand people who complain about "one mistake costs you the game" (not calling out anyone in particular here). It happens in many many sports. If you don't build up enough of an advantage, it can happen.
You can dominate possession 80-20 in a football game and be up 1-0 with 10 seconds left. All it takes is one defensive lapse on a corner to throw away 2 points.
You can be up 10 rounds in a Boxing match, but all it takes is one punch to knock you out.
You can be ahead an entire lap in a race, and all it takes is one wrong turn to spin out of the lead.
It happens in wars, too, and SC2 is basically a future-war game. Do you know what all of your examples have in common? Luck. In football you would simply call it lucky. In boxing its a lucky punch. In racing its bad luck. The difference in it is, MMA severely outplayed him through the game. He was as ahead as you can potentially be without finishing your opponent and frankly he didn't make a mistake that would warrant a huge advantage turning into a loss instantly. I can see why you see no concern here, but people don't like that its so volatile. I don't think someone should lead a game 30 minutes and lose it becauce he wasn't set up perfectly right then.
Yes, it is a lot of luck, and it is acceptable to argue that it is unfortunate.
But a lot of complaints about SC2's in-game volatility seem to suggest that the situation is somehow unique to SC2, and that it makes the game inferior to... other sports or games. The fact is, a lot of luck goes into a lot of sports and games; if you aren't ahead enough, one big, good move can reverse the tide. I can understand how people can see this as something unfortunate, but 1.) it isn't unique to SC2, it's the nature of a lot of sports (which does not defend that part of sport, but do not blame SC2 for it); 2.) you shouldn't take away from the player's ability to find and seize the opportunity to win; and 3.) a lot of people complain that it is harder to make a comeback in SC2 because of this or that reason, but when comebacks occur similar outrage transpires.
And about result volatility... I'd love to make a comparison between SC2 and pro sports but I am too lazy
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On September 16 2013 15:31 napo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 07:28 ThomasjServo wrote:On September 16 2013 07:27 Loxley wrote:On September 16 2013 07:26 ThomasjServo wrote:On September 16 2013 07:25 Draconicfire wrote:
Is.
Is that TLO. aye, a lot of if not all of TL was there for the bracket and SC2L Where is ret? He is there, not sure if he was on stage or not but he was last night for the grand finals which liquid won. TLO remarked, "Jos, really didn't want to play." and he was next to.... HerO. He was there, but wasn't that outgoing at all. Just hanging around with his gf and being somewhat sad (that's how it looked to me).
I think he put a lot of training in to this event, learned new hotkeys and stuff. Going out with 2-1 in the groups is always tough.
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I was really upset that MMA lost game 2 vs innovation, he really did play so amazingly well in game 1 and for 98% of game 2, then one mistake and GG. I noticed he made 2 factories in panic after he lost the army, maybe if he had those already and was able to pump out 4 tanks at a time he could've defended perhaps, but oh well. No bias here as I like both of them about the same, but MMA vs TaeJa i feel would've been far more competitive than what the finals were, which were a rather boring stomp apart from the first game where i always felt TaeJa was ahead anyways. Oh well, good to see MMA playing godly again anyway
TaeJa too good!
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I don't think you are referring to me especially as I don't think its unique in Starcraft 2 , I find it annoying everywhere. In addition, I never took away anything from INnoVation. While I think its dumb that a game can be turned in a moment, you still have to realize its the moment. He saw his chance, took it and blew MMA away and I can imagine that was a big mental hit to MMA because he knew just as well as we did how ahead he was.
Your last point has no value, at least not to me or others that complain I guess. People do complain there are no comebacks, because in most cases, you cannot comeback with good play / nice actions and smaller details. What we saw in MMA/INnoVation really doesn't fit comeback to me. Most people want a game where being at a disadvantage means you are at a disadvantage and not you have lost the game. In Broowar you could often times come back from a disadvantageous position due to good play, drops etc. That is actually very rare in Starcraft 2. I realize we cannot change it with complaining and I really don't complain about it, but when someone would ask, I would say that is what concerns me the most.
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I've long wished mirror mu's had a higher max supply. P vs P rewards people for not being able to expo, to some extent. T vs T allows anyone to get maxed, no matter how bad they get outplayed, due to how inefficient it is to attack into sieged tanks. I feel bad for MMA. I'd like to think if the supply cap was even 230, that he would win that game 100 out of 100 times.
In BW, if you outplayed your opponent in T vs T and had more eco, you at least got to tech up to OP BC's, but against bio + mech, what can you really make to capitalize off you outplaying your opponent? More structures? When that's your only real adv, you do want to take battles on their side of the map to give you time to utilize your extra facilities. I don't know what else MMA could have done besides agree to a turtle fest and starve him out. What a horrible way to lose. After losing a game like that, it's really 2 losses in 1, as I imagine it's impossible to focus/care after that.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you.
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you.
I support Chelsea and I'm all for them
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I think I can agree with you even though I slightly prefer the different approach but generally speaking I would say we have a similar take on it
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 16 2013 15:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you. I support Chelsea and I'm all for them
Nothing beats Fergie Time
![[image loading]](http://thechelseablog.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/FergieTime.png)
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On September 16 2013 15:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you. I support Chelsea and I'm all for them
gross. the way that club and plastic fans treated Rafa was disgraceful. at least Mourinho is back so you can go back to enjoying your boring boring Chelsea. cheers
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 16 2013 16:28 jonich0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you. I support Chelsea and I'm all for them gross. the way that club and plastic fans treated Rafa was disgraceful. at least Mourinho is back so you can go back to enjoying your boring boring Chelsea. cheers
Let the hate flow through you
I actually thought Rafa Benitez did a remarkable job with what he had to work with and how many matches he had to play. I dislike Mourinho. I like the players.
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On September 16 2013 16:29 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 16:28 jonich0n wrote:On September 16 2013 15:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you. I support Chelsea and I'm all for them gross. the way that club and plastic fans treated Rafa was disgraceful. at least Mourinho is back so you can go back to enjoying your boring boring Chelsea. cheers Let the hate flow through you I actually thought Rafa Benitez did a remarkable job with what he had to work with and how many matches he had to play. I dislike Mourinho. I like the players.
Rafa's pretty brilliant, shame the English media was so biased and shit on him so much during all his time in England. top man, top manager. Well at least you sound like one of the more sensible ones. Not like pretty much all the Chelsea fans I meet in the States.
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are there any replay of taejas games? o:
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On September 16 2013 16:34 jonich0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 16:29 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 16 2013 16:28 jonich0n wrote:On September 16 2013 15:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 16 2013 15:57 lichter wrote:
Nah I wasn't referring to you. There are some people out there who just do nothing but complain and try to make it seem like it's somehow unique to the game. I just wanted to address that it happens in a lot of different sports.
I support Arsenal and you can't imagine how much I've raged over stoppage time equalizers.
The last point is another general statement that doesn't reference this situation in particular. But I see a lot of people swing between opinions with as much volatility (though often when favorites are involved). "omg no comebacks" one minute to "one mistake gg" the next. I suppose the nature of those comebacks isn't as interesting because they are "one big move" type of comebacks, instead of a "claw your way back" type of comeback, but I still stand by my opinion that if you aren't far enough ahead, then one big move should still kill you. I support Chelsea and I'm all for them gross. the way that club and plastic fans treated Rafa was disgraceful. at least Mourinho is back so you can go back to enjoying your boring boring Chelsea. cheers Let the hate flow through you I actually thought Rafa Benitez did a remarkable job with what he had to work with and how many matches he had to play. I dislike Mourinho. I like the players. Rafa's pretty brilliant, shame the English media was so biased and shit on him so much during all his time in England. top man, top manager. Well at least you sound like one of the more sensible ones. Not like pretty much all the Chelsea fans I meet in the States.
Well i live in Newcastle and support said team. I can you this when you shit all over the fans in the press even though its from a previous team ( in his case Liverpool ) you will never be loved.
Football is a tribal game not just a sport,the rivalries within it are generations old and the Fans never forget and they rarely forgive. Rafa is a good manager for sure but should never have went to Chealsea
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EPT
