why did I even ask for the most anticipated match? Not even worth a question ^.^
This is once more a match that could go completely one-sided in either direction or completely even. I hope for the latter and a cool Ace-Match of Jaedong vs Innovation (and hopefully it'll be a close game)
On April 22 2013 03:27 BronzeKnee wrote: Why are there so many mirrors in Proleague... is it just chance or is there some reason?
They send out players based on maps without knowing who the other team is sending out, so Protoss favoured maps will likely have more Protoss being sent out and so on.
On April 21 2013 17:11 Daswollvieh wrote: EGTL can and must win this, especially since STX is so close to them in points. Shame that they lost against Team 8.
Exactly. Obviously it's really impressive they were able to beat WJS and SKT1 but those teams are basically a lock for the playoffs. If they want to achieve the "miracle," they're going to have to take victories against the teams competing for the last spots...like STX.
I'd go so far to say that this game is make or break for EGTL's distant playoff hopes. If they win, the dream remains alive, if still pretty farfetched. But if they can't take down a completely beatable team in 6th place STX, I don't see any hope for their playoff dreams. EG-TL will fall to 3-3, a 50% record, which is definitely not good enough to get them out of the hole they've dug themselves.
As for predictions, I think they're out the window. EG-TL could 4-0 or 0-4, we've seen both sides even this round. So far under Coach Park it's been 3.5 matches of "miracle," and 1.5 matches of EZ-TL fail. Will Jekyll or Hyde show up for this match? Nobody knows.
For me, the key players this match are Alive and Oz. Even with "good" EG-TL playing, Taeja will probably lose to Innovation and at least one of JD or Hero will lose their bad vP matchups. That means EG-TL are really relying on Alive and Oz to win their games. Both players started in Proleague strongly with convincing victories, but since have slid and both are on 3-game losing streaks. If Oz loses his game, he falls to 1-4 and I think Coach Park will have no choice but to have him hit the showers. Same with Alive, if he falls to 2-4, he's in a better position being a terran but his spot will be in jeopardy. Unfortunately EG-TL can't really afford to have Alive or Oz sucking b/c there's not exactly a competition for places on their short bench.
Either way, tonight we find out if miracles can happen or not.
Edit: I agree with thr guy above. And now that I've looked at them matchups for a third time, I really think it's 50-50. Any one game can decide this match. Also, you guys will porabably (certianly) call me crazy, but I think HerO and TaeJa are stronger that Innovation. However HerO isn't very constant in his winning form, and TaeJa is having those wrist problems T.T In a single game though, I think both TL players can take out Innovation.
Just looking at the players list, EGTL should have a decent chance against STX Soul, but they didn't get very lucky in the matchups. Taeja would have had an excellent chance of winning against any STX player except Innovation, and JD is against a Protoss.
On April 22 2013 09:45 mongmong wrote: A lot of EG-TL players sleep deprived T.T Good luck to EGTL anyway
Yeah, I can't see them winning. Probably all really down and tired as fuck. Not much time at all to prepare for PL either, which seems to be critical to the success in the league
On April 22 2013 09:45 mongmong wrote: A lot of EG-TL players sleep deprived T.T Good luck to EGTL anyway
Yeah, I can't see them winning. Probably all really down and tired as fuck. Not much time at all to prepare for PL either, which seems to be critical to the success in the league
Clearly Personally league is still much more important to EG or TL, despite the hyper of proleague. It is actually sad that lots of PL players got no personal league to play at all. It would, hence, be really hard to judge their level.
On April 22 2013 09:45 mongmong wrote: A lot of EG-TL players sleep deprived T.T Good luck to EGTL anyway
Yeah, I can't see them winning. Probably all really down and tired as fuck. Not much time at all to prepare for PL either, which seems to be critical to the success in the league
Clearly Personally league is still much more important to EG or TL, despite the hyper of proleague. It is actually sad that lots of PL players got no personal league to play at all. It would, hence, be really hard to judge their level.
You expect them to not play in WCS for the first two seasons for one proleague match?
I think these games will be delayed by a bit because of a long TvT in the earlier series. Fantasy vs Ty is still going on and after that there will be at least one more game, maybe even 2 if it goes to the ace match.
This is like the longest intro ever :S Or did i tune in just as KT finished? Even though i swear KT finished before i watched the 2 VODs of DeMuslim vs Tilea :S
On April 22 2013 18:01 LimitSEA wrote: Unlucky for JD getting a Protoss. TT
So psyched for Taeja vs Innovation. How'd Taeja look the other day?
He didn't look well vs forGG, but that could be cross-server issue. (0-2, Acer Teamstory Cup) but I'd say BoguS is a ton stronger than forGG for that matter, so... don't know how the chances are he'll win.
On April 22 2013 18:01 LimitSEA wrote: Unlucky for JD getting a Protoss. TT
So psyched for Taeja vs Innovation. How'd Taeja look the other day?
The TvP against Brown? Shaky
but it's been his weakest matchup for awhile now
Wuh-oh. I can't imagine he'll do well vs Innovation if his play seems shaky. Even in top form I dunno that he'd be able to take Innovation. :/ Ahhh well.
this match is pretty much make-or-break for EGTL. Should it be a loss, they will be 3 matches away from top4 with an awful map differences and only one game left for the last week of R4
Do you think that EG-TL can take this one? Also, will Jaedong win his game? I'm asking because I don't follow SC2 on a daily basis anymore. On a side note, what's up with this "Mind Mind Mind" song, it hurts my brain
On April 22 2013 18:11 SixSongs wrote: Do you think that EG-TL can take this one? Also, will Jaedong win his game? I'm asking because I don't follow SC2 on a daily basis anymore. On a side note, what's up with this "Mind Mind Mind" song, it hurts my brain
They can, they have the potential to beat any team, but their consistency is quiet shaky. It could be all scores from 4-0 to 0-4 if you ask me.
On April 22 2013 18:10 Yello wrote: does anyone have a link to the Korean stream? I can't find it (not knowing Korean makes it pretty difficult to navigate on Korean websites)
On April 22 2013 18:10 Yello wrote: does anyone have a link to the Korean stream? I can't find it (not knowing Korean makes it pretty difficult to navigate on Korean websites)
On April 22 2013 18:11 SixSongs wrote: Do you think that EG-TL can take this one? Also, will Jaedong win his game? I'm asking because I don't follow SC2 on a daily basis anymore. On a side note, what's up with this "Mind Mind Mind" song, it hurts my brain
They can, they have the potential to beat any team, but their consistency is quiet shaky. It could be all scores from 4-0 to 0-4 if you ask me.
On April 22 2013 18:11 SixSongs wrote: Do you think that EG-TL can take this one? Also, will Jaedong win his game? I'm asking because I don't follow SC2 on a daily basis anymore. On a side note, what's up with this "Mind Mind Mind" song, it hurts my brain
They can, they have the potential to beat any team, but their consistency is quiet shaky. It could be all scores from 4-0 to 0-4 if you ask me.
Well i thought JYP was miles ahead, but i guess not having mothership core with your army and the ability to return home after getting the natural cancelled pretty much lost him the game?
On April 22 2013 18:22 Uranyl wrote: No LR today? I'm unable to see the stream and starving for informations
Basicly they base traded and where Mini killed JYP's main nexus and JYP didnt kill anything. Then they did that again and JYP's decision making was really bad so he lost.
On April 22 2013 18:22 Uranyl wrote: No LR today? I'm unable to see the stream and starving for informations
Basicly they base traded and where Mini killed JYP's main nexus and JYP didnt kill anything. Then they did that again and JYP's decision making was really bad so he lost.
I'm sorry, I can't do the LR. I'm at my parents house and I don't have a 2nd monitor over here
On April 22 2013 18:22 Uranyl wrote: No LR today? I'm unable to see the stream and starving for informations
Basicly they base traded and where Mini killed JYP's main nexus and JYP didnt kill anything. Then they did that again and JYP's decision making was really bad so he lost.
Can anyone translate what JYP typed in the chat there? I'm curious, especially since I thought they were a lot stricter about that kind of thing in Proleague.
On April 22 2013 18:31 HamsterBob wrote: Can anyone translate what JYP typed in the chat there? I'm curious, especially since I thought they were a lot stricter about that kind of thing in Proleague.
I think it was just the message that he is being revealed due to no nexus left
I'll be giving JYP, JD, and Alive a pass tonight since they were definitely up past their bed times to deal with the MLG crap. Taeja and hero gotta put the team on their back tonight.
On April 22 2013 18:31 HamsterBob wrote: Can anyone translate what JYP typed in the chat there? I'm curious, especially since I thought they were a lot stricter about that kind of thing in Proleague.
I think it was just the message that he is being revealed due to no nexus left
Oh right... I forget about that. Thanks, I'm dumb :-)
Players who play robo can still compete with a blink player who has the nexus building earlier, even having the Nexus ranging from 60%-complete. The difference between the both Nexus was about 10%-20%. JYP had the tech, had just about the same Nexus timing... All he needed to do was sit back, add a 2nd robo and just play the game out.
On April 22 2013 18:32 d.Apollo wrote: Players who play robo can still compete with a blink player who has the nexus building earlier, even having the Nexus ranging from 60%-complete. The difference between the both Nexus was about 10%-20%. JYP had the tech, had just about the same Nexus timing... All he needed to do was sit back, add a 2nd robo and just play the game out.
On April 22 2013 18:22 Uranyl wrote: No LR today? I'm unable to see the stream and starving for informations
Basicly they base traded and where Mini killed JYP's main nexus and JYP didnt kill anything. Then they did that again and JYP's decision making was really bad so he lost.
Tanks for the liitle summary. At least something
No problem^^ the game itself was kind bad, was just comical because the decision making was that bad lol
On April 22 2013 18:32 d.Apollo wrote: Players who play robo can still compete with a blink player who has the nexus building earlier, even having the Nexus ranging from 60%-complete. The difference between the both Nexus was about 10%-20%. JYP had the tech, had just about the same Nexus timing... All he needed to do was sit back, add a 2nd robo and just play the game out.
Your twitter-casts are awesome enough that I think you should do a LR. Please.
On April 22 2013 18:36 Dodgin wrote: I can see Alive, Oz and Hero all winning their matches. It should go to ace match assuming JD's match is auto loss.
Which it should be considering his ZvP. Curious to see who EG-TL would send out as Ace vs Innovation.
On April 22 2013 18:36 Dodgin wrote: I can see Alive, Oz and Hero all winning their matches. It should go to ace match assuming JD's match is auto loss.
Which it should be considering his ZvP. Curious to see who EG-TL would send out as Ace vs Innovation.
On April 22 2013 18:36 Dodgin wrote: I can see Alive, Oz and Hero all winning their matches. It should go to ace match assuming JD's match is auto loss.
Which it should be considering his ZvP. Curious to see who EG-TL would send out as Ace vs Innovation.
Should be HerO if Taeja loses
He's the only person I can think of. It can't be JD considering how ridiculous Innovation's TvZ is, but his TvP is almost as impressive. Tough spot for EG-TL to be in assuming they can get to the Ace match.
On April 22 2013 18:35 styLesdavis wrote: Bogus is so much favored against Taeja. EGTL maybe already with their backs against the wall...
Why is he so much favored ? TaeJa has been impressive too lately
Taeja qualified in Code S but I think he got very lucky against Fantasy and then faced a ZvZ specialist. I found Innovation far more impressive in his Code S group.
On April 22 2013 18:38 GunSec wrote: I can't see innovation lose to taeja, he is probably top 3 terrans in the world right now
I think TaeJa is also in that top 3 ...
Maybe a few months ago. But at the moment Flash and Innovation hold the top two spots. Taeja's looked a bit shaky lately apparently, so I can't really see him being top 3 as far as Terrans go.
Can't say that for certain though, I suppose, considering I didn't catch his game vs Brown the other day.
On April 22 2013 18:35 styLesdavis wrote: Bogus is so much favored against Taeja. EGTL maybe already with their backs against the wall...
Why is he so much favored ? TaeJa has been impressive too lately
Taeja qualified in Code S but I think he got very lucky against Fantasy and then faced a ZvZ specialist. I found Innovation far more impressive in his Code S group.
He beat Fantasy in a great match that had nothing to do with luck.
On April 22 2013 18:49 BlackCompany wrote: Scout massive ammount of hellions, try to counter it with LESS hellions and fall really behind. solid strategy here T.T
well Bogus runs straight into his nat, deflecting mines in process. Whats Taeja supposed to do there? Bogus is just too good
On April 22 2013 18:49 BlackCompany wrote: Scout massive ammount of hellions, try to counter it with LESS hellions and fall really behind. solid strategy here T.T
well Bogus runs straight into his nat, deflecting mines in process. Whats Taeja supposed to do there? Bogus is just too good
He was 2 steps ahead, 1st by deflecting the poke, 2nd by scanning the mines and properly spreading his hellions.
This is the first time I've seen a ground-mode Viking get that many kills and do that much damage - it literally changed the fight in Innovation's favor.
On April 22 2013 18:49 BlackCompany wrote: Scout massive ammount of hellions, try to counter it with LESS hellions and fall really behind. solid strategy here T.T
well Bogus runs straight into his nat, deflecting mines in process. Whats Taeja supposed to do there? Bogus is just too good
I would expect to build a bunker or two here. He did see how many hellions innovation had + he knew that he had 2 or 3 vikings. Shouldnt he know that he would just die or take massive damage if innovation attacked? 2 bunkers would have workeed wonders vs hellions or am i worng?
4 factors really: 1. First engagement was bad from Innovation - Taeja went from down 40 supply to down 20 supply after the fight 2. Taeja's gold base 3. Taeja is one tier of upgrades higher. 4. Second engagement was as bad as possible from innovation - REALLY late siege, funneled all hellions in afterwards through a tiny, tiny hole
On April 22 2013 18:59 Dodgin wrote: I really think this just came down to not enough PDD's
Taeja had like 30 marauders
I think Innovation didn't expect TaeJa to be so forward with his army. He expected him to stay nearby the third, but TaeJa had moved very aggressively to intercept Innovation's forces, catching them while they were basically strolling around.
is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
At the end of the game, but for the first half where Innovation was dominating Taeja had up to 1k minerals multiple times and also supply blocked himself.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
Good positioning allowed him to destroy Innovations army really frickin hard. I think that must have been the first time the commentators ever saw Taeja play, because you just know he will pull off stuff like this when he is maxed! Great play by him!
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
because you have to get lucky to come back from a supply gap like that.
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
the commentary sucked so fucking much...I wish there was this one single profesional caster that has played TvT more than 10 times in his life so he could provide something else than ''well there are these units moving around the map and uuugh tanks and uuugh he got his army obliterated its over gege and uugh but the game is dragging for 20 more minutes for some reason"
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
because you have to get lucky to come back from a supply gap like that.
I think he's pointing out them saying "Tajea got lucky" rather than "Innovation just made several massive mistakes".
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
On April 22 2013 19:05 SKYFISH_ wrote: the commentary sucked so fucking much...I wish there was this one single profesional caster that has played TvT more than 10 times in his life so he could provide something else than ''well there are these units moving around the map and uuugh tanks and uuugh he got his army obliterated its over gege and uugh but the game is dragging for 20 more minutes for some reason"
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
He had above 600 minerals for most of the game even till the end without being maxed.
This is what TaeJa does. He ALWAYS floats. No, it isn't ideal, but reading this shit after every game of his is a bit of a joke. Bad macro is what Fantasy did throughout BW, after all!
I attribute the reason for "terrible macro" always being mentioned is that it's harder to appreciate game sense, decision making and battle micro than it is to read a number that's ever present at the top-right of the screen...
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
On April 22 2013 19:02 opterown wrote: what the hell i tuned out when taeja got ravaged at his natural, how did he take that?
1. Taking a gold base that was unscouted by Bogus for the most time 2. Getting a good engagement with Bogus tanks at front and hellbats behind, also too little ravens vs the huge amount of marauders 3. Also having a upgrade lead
Honest question: Why ravens for marauders?
PDD stops marauder shots.
They stop 400 damage from marauders without upgrades (with ugrades more) = instawin if played right.
I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making less mistakes than your opponent. Taeja was the better player that game.
Excuse me? When did I ever say Taeja played bad? In fact, unless I'm having a stroke, I'm pretty sure I outlined several massive mistakes by Innovation that game.
I'm just pointing out that it was Innovation's game to lose. No amount of micro or good decision making would have saved Taeja had Innovation played slightly better.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
and yet innovation couldn't close the game could he?
On April 22 2013 19:12 IshinShishi wrote: I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
actually he made a valid point and all i see is 5 pages of taeja fanboys circle-jerking his victory.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
On April 22 2013 19:12 IshinShishi wrote: I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
Mech has distinctive advantages, but it's hard to rebuild. So once you lose that huge mech army it's almost always over. Sort of similar to protoss losing it's tech units in late game engagements. Mech's strength is that it's got one, big, strong push but if it fails then you're in trouble.
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
and yet innovation couldn't close the game could he?
I mean, winning the game doesnt make yourself a better player. lets be completely honest here, Bogus fucked up and nothing else
I wonder why there are so few hard air transitions when players mech, Innovation had all the time and money he wanted. Attacking into a maxed Taeja is always a very risky move!
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
and yet innovation couldn't close the game could he?
I mean, winning the gaming doesnt make yourself a better player. lets be completely honest here, Bogus fucked up and nothing else
Not fucking up makes you a better player though
"oh hey, you won that olympic gold medal, but only cause i fucked up"
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
He had above 600 minerals for most of the game even till the end without being maxed.
Yeah. But he always plays like that...
taeja could never macro, even when he owned everyone his macro sucked
99% of Taeja's wins are macro games and you say his macro sux lol
Even when he was the best terran in the world and almost win IPL TAC, his mineral increased way too fast. His macro don't sucks, but it's really not its best strenght
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
He had above 600 minerals for most of the game even till the end without being maxed.
Yeah. But he always plays like that...
taeja could never macro, even when he owned everyone his macro sucked
99% of Taeja's wins are macro games and you say his macro sux lol
Even when he was the best terran in the world and almost win IPL TAC, his mineral increased way too fast. His macro don't sucks, but it's really not its best strenght
its obviously not terrible, but when u compare taeja to bomber or ryung pure macro wise theres a huge difference
On April 22 2013 19:02 Big J wrote: is there a way to turn of the bias in those casters? start of the game: "Innovation so good" x1000 Taeja stomps Innovations army: "Taeja got lucky in that engagement" ...
You seem pretty biased yourself.
Taeja didn't win that, Innovation lost it. Not scouting and being careless while attempting to mech is a recipe for disaster, even when you have a huge lead.
Jesus, too many bogus fanboys in here. Winning the game is usually about making fewer mistakes than your opponent and exploiting your opponent's mistakes. Taeja was the better player that game in both aspects.
up until that decisive engagement, everyone in this LR is like wtf Taeja why so bad
and yet innovation couldn't close the game could he?
I mean, winning the gaming doesnt make yourself a better player. lets be completely honest here, Bogus fucked up and nothing else
Not fucking up makes you a better player though
"oh hey, you won that olympic gold medal, but only cause i fucked up"
It's still worth mentioning. Especially when in a game like this, where one side has such a huge lead it takes over 5 minutes of straight overall bad decision-making, bad engagements and not scouting for a comeback to be even possible. It would probably have been harder for Taeja to come back if Innovation just straight up walked away from the computer after getting that huge lead.
On April 22 2013 19:12 IshinShishi wrote: I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
Mech has distinctive advantages, but it's hard to rebuild. So once you lose that huge mech army it's almost always over. Sort of similar to protoss losing it's tech units in late game engagements. Mech's strength is that it's got one, big, strong push but if it fails then you're in trouble.
Does it truly have a strong push though ? You can't even push fast enough with mech ,a bio player has plenty of time to troll everywhere because a meching player has to push very slowly, unlike a protoss player than can just waltz over anywhere like they don't even care once their ball is ready, every second your army is moving is one that can mean your doom if you get caught.
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
He had above 600 minerals for most of the game even till the end without being maxed.
Yeah. But he always plays like that...
taeja could never macro, even when he owned everyone his macro sucked
99% of Taeja's wins are macro games and you say his macro sux lol
Even when he was the best terran in the world and almost win IPL TAC, his mineral increased way too fast. His macro don't sucks, but it's really not its best strenght
its obviously not terrible, but when u compare taeja to bomber or ryung pure macro wise theres a huge difference
Tottally agree. If he had a perfect macro, he would be unbeatable....
On April 22 2013 19:01 Clefairy wrote: Taeja winning even with terrible macro
Terrible macro? He was making 5 SCVs at the same time!
He had above 600 minerals for most of the game even till the end without being maxed.
Yeah. But he always plays like that...
taeja could never macro, even when he owned everyone his macro sucked
99% of Taeja's wins are macro games and you say his macro sux lol
Even when he was the best terran in the world and almost win IPL TAC, his mineral increased way too fast. His macro don't sucks, but it's really not its best strenght
its obviously not terrible, but when u compare taeja to bomber or ryung pure macro wise theres a huge difference
Tottally agree. If he had a perfect macro, he would be unbeatable....
So if he had Flash macro he would be unbeatable xD idd
On April 22 2013 19:12 IshinShishi wrote: I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
Mech has distinctive advantages, but it's hard to rebuild. So once you lose that huge mech army it's almost always over. Sort of similar to protoss losing it's tech units in late game engagements. Mech's strength is that it's got one, big, strong push but if it fails then you're in trouble.
Does it truly have a strong push though ? You can't even push fast enough with mech ,a bio player has plenty of time to troll everywhere because a meching player has to push very slowly, unlike a protoss player than can just waltz over anywhere like they don't even care once their ball is ready, every second your army is moving is one that can mean your doom if you get caught.
well Flash lost to Reality, that pretty much sums mech vs bio.
taeja's micro ain't even that good either, I wonder what makes him win so much if neither his micro nor his macro are that impressive, a mistery indeed.
On April 22 2013 19:25 IshinShishi wrote: taeja's micro ain't even that good either, I wonder what makes him win so much if neither his micro nor his macro are that impressive, a mistery indeed.
On April 22 2013 19:25 IshinShishi wrote: taeja's micro ain't even that good either, I wonder what makes him win so much if neither his micro nor his macro are that impressive, a mistery indeed.
On April 22 2013 19:12 IshinShishi wrote: I think it comes down to mech being too easy to take advantage of, mech is quite terrible unless you are a 600 apm robot that makes perfect moves everywhere, otherwise it's bio trolling here and then trolling there and back again, then suddenly you are caught unsieged and that's game. I saw byun getting out maneuvered by random NA terrans that would never beat him if he played standard, mech is just bad.
Mech has distinctive advantages, but it's hard to rebuild. So once you lose that huge mech army it's almost always over. Sort of similar to protoss losing it's tech units in late game engagements. Mech's strength is that it's got one, big, strong push but if it fails then you're in trouble.
Does it truly have a strong push though ? You can't even push fast enough with mech ,a bio player has plenty of time to troll everywhere because a meching player has to push very slowly, unlike a protoss player than can just waltz over anywhere like they don't even care once their ball is ready, every second your army is moving is one that can mean your doom if you get caught.
Well, I think there are plenty of games in the TvT and TvZ MU's where the game ends with a huge mech army sieging up the third/nat of the opponent? But sure, there is a dance between taking advantage of immobility and all that, but that's what this game is about in the end, right?
On April 22 2013 19:28 Dodgin wrote: Taeja's micro used to be really good before his wrists exploded
Was going to say, his micro's always been pretty good. Since his wrists disappeared he's basically become Mvp 2.0. Relies on out thinking his opponents and crisp decision making.
EDIT: That said, last game was more about him just being solid and not making mistakes, while exploiting Innovation's. Very solid.
On April 22 2013 19:25 IshinShishi wrote: taeja's micro ain't even that good either, I wonder what makes him win so much if neither his micro nor his macro are that impressive, a mistery indeed.
On April 22 2013 19:28 Dodgin wrote: Taeja's micro used to be really good before his wrists exploded
dude...... word that differently for the love of god
It's a joke that stems from the Mvp image where he's exploding and it says " fuck yeah Mvp " so whenever someone has wrist problems we say they exploded
That was some pretty terrible decision-making. See nydus, take all your units and donate them. Had those hellions/hellbats been home he would have held without breaking a sweat.
TaeJa's macro is good but not stellar. TaeJa's micro is pretty good, but not stellar either (especially since his wrists injuries).
Why is he so good so ? Decision making and brilliant engagements. That what make the difference between good pro-players and winning pro-players.
Think about Stephano's play for instance. He doesn't have marvellous micro, nor astonishing macro. But he knows how to engage and he knows what choices to make on the fly in game.
On April 22 2013 19:34 Serimek wrote: TaeJa's macro is good but not stellar. TaeJa's micro is pretty good, but not stellar either (especially since his wrists injuries).
Why is he so good so ? Decision making and brilliant engagements. That what make the difference between good pro-players and winning pro-players.
Think about Stephano's play for instance. He doesn't have marvellous micro, nor astonishing macro. But he knows how to engage and he knows what choices to make on the fly in game.
edit : I'm quite late for the discussion :D
I think stephano has pretty op late game army control.
On April 22 2013 19:34 Serimek wrote: TaeJa's macro is good but not stellar. TaeJa's micro is pretty good, but not stellar either (especially since his wrists injuries).
Why is he so good so ? Decision making and brilliant engagements. That what make the difference between good pro-players and winning pro-players.
Think about Stephano's play for instance. He doesn't have marvellous micro, nor astonishing macro. But he knows how to engage and he knows what choices to make on the fly in game.
edit : I'm quite late for the discussion :D
Stephano's micro is really good what are you saying. His macro too.
At this level you need to be good in almost every aspect of the game. And Taeja's overall mechanics (before his wrist injury) are some of the best i seen/
On April 22 2013 19:31 LeeDawg wrote: TIL that hellbats require an upgrade at the tech lab
Transforming hellions into hellbats does. Building them only requires an armory.
really? that seems convoluted and silly
It's to stop hellbat timings from being too strong. If you didn't need to get the factory with techlab, you could just get an armory and then transform your 6-8 hellions very early on. If the zerg didn't go fast roaches he'd probably die.
On April 22 2013 19:31 LeeDawg wrote: TIL that hellbats require an upgrade at the tech lab
Transforming hellions into hellbats does. Building them only requires an armory.
really? that seems convoluted and silly
It's to stop hellbat timings from being too strong. If you didn't need to get the factory with techlab, you could just get an armory and then transform your 6-8 hellions very early on. If the zerg didn't go fast roaches he'd probably die.
that actually makes sense. I play protoss so the nuances of early game tvz are lost on me
On April 22 2013 19:49 Dodgin wrote: oh, so violet isn't going to dreamhack. I wonder why, seems kind of important with the WCS points it gives and all that.
On April 22 2013 19:49 Dodgin wrote: oh, so violet isn't going to dreamhack. I wonder why, seems kind of important with the WCS points it gives and all that.
gstl?
actually no, azubu doesn't play next week
hrmmm
When does he play his WCS match's, he migth want to be fully prepared or Azubu finally ran out of money!
Also players gonna have to pick WCS NA code A or dreamhack by the looks of Hyuns tweets.
Hero should have gone into colossus void ray after he saw dear tech colossus as well. Colossus VR is like the best composition you can have unless the other player goes pure voids.
On April 22 2013 20:04 Disengaged wrote: Sigh voidrays bs
Yeah because HerO had a stargate just sitting there the entire game. Why whine about a unit in a mirror? At least it's not who has the most collossus anymore.
hero's pivotal mistake was just not taking the first expand in time. He was behind all game because of that, later natural, later third, lower army count etc. The voidray switch was not even so relevant, just regular army would have beaten hero too..
On April 22 2013 20:04 Disengaged wrote: Sigh voidrays bs
Yeah because HerO had a stargate just sitting there the entire game. Why whine about a unit in a mirror? At least it's not who has the most collossus anymore.
because a bs unit can destroy a mirror just as easily as it can destroy other match-ups. not saying it's the case, but you can surely hate a unit in a mirror. in fact, more so...
On April 22 2013 20:14 RogerChillingworth wrote: has alive won a game like...ever?
You must be new here...
To be honest, I got it all messed up, I thought that JYP, Alive and Hero will win their matches, while Taeja would lose to Innovation. If we follow up my way of thinking and what is happening, then Jaedong will win his match! :D
On April 22 2013 20:14 RogerChillingworth wrote: has alive won a game like...ever?
You must be new here...
To be honest, I got it all messed up, I thought that JYP, Alive and Hero will win their matches, while Taeja would lose to Innovation. If we follow up my way of thinking and what is happening, then Jaedong will win his match! :D
actually i'm more than 2 years less newer than you : DDD!!! but no, he has lost the last several matches in proleague i think. for someone who used to be tip-top, and with the state of terran atm, i'm kind of surprised.
On April 22 2013 20:14 RogerChillingworth wrote: has alive won a game like...ever?
You must be new here...
To be honest, I got it all messed up, I thought that JYP, Alive and Hero will win their matches, while Taeja would lose to Innovation. If we follow up my way of thinking and what is happening, then Jaedong will win his match! :D
That is, if Oz win his match, which seems unlikely. x)
On April 22 2013 20:14 RogerChillingworth wrote: has alive won a game like...ever?
You must be new here...
To be honest, I got it all messed up, I thought that JYP, Alive and Hero will win their matches, while Taeja would lose to Innovation. If we follow up my way of thinking and what is happening, then Jaedong will win his match! :D
actually i'm more than 2 years less newer than you : DDD!!! but no, he has lost the last several matches in proleague i think. for someone who used to be tip-top, and with the state of terran atm, i'm kind of surprised.
and damn, Oz always going for blind FE.
I didn't mean literally "new", just that you didn't follow up Alive from the day when he joined EG. Yes, he lost matches, but afaik, all his lost matches(except this one) were TvT though?
On April 22 2013 20:32 Clefairy wrote: EG-TL doesn't know how good Void Rays are
they aren't that great beyond the lategame really. Not too hard to counter by just mixing in some templar. Especially when attack upgrades get into the equation robo + templar beats robo + voids fairly well
On April 22 2013 20:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Please hydra bust Jaedong...
Does that work in this game?
Against Protoss? Frequently, especially if you manage to hit a really nice timing against someone pooling phoenix to 4 for queen snipes or taking a super fast third.
Honestly Comet showing some nerves in this game. If he left his stalkers at all his bases instead of pushing for a strong timing, his lead would have been there, not by much but definitely there, since he started both his second and third earlier. Minus 30 probes cost him the game; great phoenix harass by Oz and props to him for making the plays that kept him in it.
On April 22 2013 20:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Please hydra bust Jaedong...
Does that work in this game?
Against Protoss? Frequently, especially if you manage to hit a really nice timing against someone pooling phoenix to 4 for queen snipes or taking a super fast third.
There are better busts though I think.
You would have to go 2 base and they would see it coming with hallucinated Phenix when they don't see your third. Plus Hydras need some sort of buffer or they just die really fucking fast.
Jaedong deserved to lose this with his retarded build order. He couldn't make a spine because his super late pool wasn't done when the zealots got to his main.
lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
On April 22 2013 20:56 Markwerf wrote: lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
On April 22 2013 20:56 Markwerf wrote: lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
I think he would have had a great chance of winning even if Jaedong only went for 2 hatches. Zealots are pretty sturdy against zerglings!
if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
On April 22 2013 20:56 Markwerf wrote: lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
dumbest thing ive heard TT
Yeah, 15 hatch loses hard to 8/8 proxy gates. You think the extra 75 mins would have made any difference? You need a spine, and the 16 pool after 15 hatch is way too late to get that before the zealots show up.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
Yeah, would have liked to see a stalemate as well, tried at least!
On April 22 2013 20:56 Markwerf wrote: lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
dumbest thing ive heard TT
lol smartass it's just true. 15 hatch defends it relatively well, but third hatch was a waste.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
Nah zealots do really well against zerglings and drones. 3 zealots to defend gates and 4 to kill gas would have won it easy.
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
or trap sends all zealots after the extractor and jd can't kill the gateways fast enough
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
Yeah, would have liked to see a stalemate as well, tried at least!
there's no way..Trap coul'dve just sent 3 zealots and left 4. It's not as if JD could kill the 3 zealots and take no losses. And he only managed to do so much damage to them with a really good surround. Trap could've just sent his zealots around a different way and outrun JD to the extractor. Honestly he could've sent all 7 zealots to the extractor and probably won. It was ova. Zealots are good at this point in the game.
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
No way jaedong would have been able to take down the buildings quicker than the 4 zealots taking down an extractor.
If Jaedong had another 25 gold to build another extractor, could have been possible, but he had none at all.
And 3 Zealots parked in strategic positions around the buildings can take down jaedongs army no problem.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
On April 22 2013 20:56 Markwerf wrote: lol such a risky protoss build. Even if it's 15 hatch, without the quick third zerg still wins relatively easily. Only because of the fast third did JD lose really.
dumbest thing ive heard TT
Yeah, 15 hatch loses hard to 8/8 proxy gates. You think the extra 75 mins would have made any difference? You need a spine, and the 16 pool after 15 hatch is way too late to get that before the zealots show up.
you just need to be able to get out enough lings. If you recognize it fast enough it's actually not a difficult hold, just escape your lings and kill his base. The 100ish minerals you lose trying to make the third matter a lot in this case. Of course JD also made some other mistakes like going for a queen which you shouldn't in this scenario. The kespa players in general are a bit worse in these weird scenario's because they are just so rare now, because they actually just suck if the zerg knows what to do.
On April 22 2013 20:59 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: if jaedong stayed in the game maybe he could've won/stalemate? trap only had 7 zealots to split up, and jaedongs little army was able to take down 3 zealots, so if he sends 4 to hit gas, then he can counter attack, and if he sends 3 to attack, then he can defend. then he can just heal up? o__o
Trap could just mix the healthy zealots with the dmg ones and send 3 for the extractor and defend with the rest... no way JD could kill all zealots, even if he killed the ones defending the pylon and gates, trap would kill 1 extractor faster than the rest of JD forces kills 3 buildings. So.. no way JD would win it.
That was great decision making by Trap. His team was ahead so he could gamble knowing JD and his greedy ZvP. He rolled the dice knowing that there was a fair chance of winning. GG, that's it.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
I know, JD knows eveybody knows that. But this is not how you play starcraft. You want to surprise your opponent, get every advantage you can, and risky play (or retard play according to LR polite posters) definitely is part of this. I mean, proxy 2 gates against Zerg is as risky (retarded) than what JD did in this game.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
hatch first is being played by a ton of pros. You just see if you can get it down, else you play 15 or 16pool... If the map allows to defend against a canon rush with drones it's a good choice.
And fast third... the only build that you get a BO loss against is the double proxy gate, which is hardly ever being played because it's holdable by anything if scouted and a BO loss against pool first as well as 6-10pool rushes.
It's not "stupid". You go for it and accept the occasional BO loss, while getting a nice advantage if you don't get the BO loss.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
you're an idiot. 15 hatch v P is ok. You simple scout the natural with your 9 ov as usual and only do it if you see the lack of a scouting probe... It's quite standard on 4p maps or to do when P uses a no scouting build... Of course you don't do it if you get 9 scouted... But you can easily react to that.
That loss must have been really demoralizing for JD. This loss is also coming right after getting eliminated by a foreigner in WCS: NA the day before. I hope he doesn't go into a deeper slump after today.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
hatch first is being played by a ton of pros. You just see if you can get it down, else you play 15 or 16pool... If the map allows to defend against a canon rush with drones it's a good choice.
And fast third... the only build that you get a BO loss against is the double proxy gate, which is hardly ever being played because it's holdable by anything if scouted and a BO loss against pool first as well as 6-10pool rushes.
It's not "stupid". You go for it and accept the occasional BO loss, while getting a nice advantage if you don't get the BO loss.
While not stupid, I don't think is the way to go when you are forced to win to give your team a chance. IMO, in those situations you should play safer.
On April 22 2013 21:10 EpiK wrote: That loss must have been really demoralizing for JD. This loss is also coming right after getting eliminated by a foreigner in WCS: NA the day before. I hope he doesn't go into a deeper slump after today.
on the side note, JD is always welcome to play BW! Yay!
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
hatch first is being played by a ton of pros. You just see if you can get it down, else you play 15 or 16pool... If the map allows to defend against a canon rush with drones it's a good choice.
And fast third... the only build that you get a BO loss against is the double proxy gate, which is hardly ever being played because it's holdable by anything if scouted and a BO loss against pool first as well as 6-10pool rushes.
It's not "stupid". You go for it and accept the occasional BO loss, while getting a nice advantage if you don't get the BO loss.
While not stupid, I don't think is the way to go when you are forced to win to give your team a chance. IMO, in those situations you should play safer.
This is a retarded line of thinking... You don't change your play depending on what is at stake.. You play the strategy that gives you the biggest chance of winning, it absolutely does not matter at all what the situation is. Understanding that is a key thing to being a pro, adapting your style to the occasion is a flaw and only makes you weaker and more predictable.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
Even if the other guy rolled over and die he would still be outplayed.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
hatch first is being played by a ton of pros. You just see if you can get it down, else you play 15 or 16pool... If the map allows to defend against a canon rush with drones it's a good choice.
And fast third... the only build that you get a BO loss against is the double proxy gate, which is hardly ever being played because it's holdable by anything if scouted and a BO loss against pool first as well as 6-10pool rushes.
It's not "stupid". You go for it and accept the occasional BO loss, while getting a nice advantage if you don't get the BO loss.
While not stupid, I don't think is the way to go when you are forced to win to give your team a chance. IMO, in those situations you should play safer.
This is a retarded line of thinking... You don't change your play depending on what is at stake.. You play the strategy that gives you the biggest chance of winning, it absolutely does not matter at all what the situation is. Understanding that is a key thing to being a pro, adapting your style to the occasion is a flaw and only makes you weaker and more predictable.
I'm not speaking about a change of style, but in those situations you can try to drone scout. That's it.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
Even if the other guy rolled over and die he would still be outplayed.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
Even if the other guy rolled over and die he would still be outplayed.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
Even if the other guy rolled over and die he would still be outplayed.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
Losing the build order battle in a Bo1 is not getting "absolutely outplayed". For you to get outplayed, there must be some actual "play" in the first place :D What you can say is that Trap read Jaedong well or knew his weaknesses or flaws or something, but he didn't actually outplay him, someone else could have told Trap to do that build after all...
It was more than a build order loss. It was a poor choice of build order even in a normal game (since the probe should be able to block the 15 hatch), and because if you're going to really fast 3 hatch you should at least scout.
Player B picked a terrible build order, hence player A "absolutely outplayed" him (by doing nothing special...). A very smart thing to say indeed.
Here is a better use of the word "outplay": "Taeja outplayed Innovation". :p
Even if the other guy rolled over and die he would still be outplayed.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
I know, JD knows eveybody knows that. But this is not how you play starcraft. You want to surprise your opponent, get every advantage you can, and risky play (or retard play according to LR polite posters) definitely is part of this. I mean, proxy 2 gates against Zerg is as risky (retarded) than what JD did in this game.
Ordinarily, but when you take the same risk every time, and play in a format where people prepare for each opponent, you start to run into issues. It's like how MKP used to go CC first without scouting every TvZ and then take gas. He played vs Life, and Life killed him with a 7 roach rush. You simply cannot take the same risk every game as a standard, or you're not surprising your opponent.
The problem is that JD is so insecure in his ZvP and isn't very good in the matchup that he attempts to compensate by taking huge blind risks to gain an advantage. That's why we saw a super fast triple hatch after hatch first with no lings and no scouting. Nobody plays that way normally, but he felt he had to take the risk to get ahead.
But the idea that you're going to teach JD the basics is laughable. He already knows 15 hatch is a serious risk, it just happens to be one that he is prepared to take due to his deficiencies in other areas in the matchup. He's also banking in large part that his opponents know his micro and cheese defense is strong, so they won't even attempt to cannon rush or proxy gate him. It turned out to not be a safe bet.
On April 22 2013 21:33 Irre wrote: Holy shit Taeja! After the most perfect TvP ever the other night in proleague and now beating innovation...He could win GSL if his wrists hold up..
that would be cool but in a way, I don't really want him to win the GSL since he's leaving to go to WCS AM next season and wouldn't be around to defend his title.
On April 22 2013 21:33 Irre wrote: Holy shit Taeja! After the most perfect TvP ever the other night in proleague and now beating innovation...He could win GSL if his wrists hold up..
that would be cool but in a way, I don't really want him to win the GSL since he's leaving to go to WCS AM next season and wouldn't be around to defend his title.
That makes me want him to win even more, actually.
On April 22 2013 21:10 EpiK wrote: That loss must have been really demoralizing for JD. This loss is also coming right after getting eliminated by a foreigner in WCS: NA the day before. I hope he doesn't go into a deeper slump after today.
Or it´s learning experience that scouting pays off.
On April 22 2013 21:33 Irre wrote: Holy shit Taeja! After the most perfect TvP ever the other night in proleague and now beating innovation...He could win GSL if his wrists hold up..
that would be cool but in a way, I don't really want him to win the GSL since he's leaving to go to WCS AM next season and wouldn't be around to defend his title.
pretty sure he has the option to change after the first season so thus he would stay in Korea if he won GSL obviously. Pretty much guarantees you a spot in the world finals groups.
On April 22 2013 21:33 Irre wrote: Holy shit Taeja! After the most perfect TvP ever the other night in proleague and now beating innovation...He could win GSL if his wrists hold up..
that would be cool but in a way, I don't really want him to win the GSL since he's leaving to go to WCS AM next season and wouldn't be around to defend his title.
That makes me want him to win even more, actually.
It would be like the action hero who turns toward the camera and doesn't look at the explosion.
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
I know, JD knows eveybody knows that. But this is not how you play starcraft. You want to surprise your opponent, get every advantage you can, and risky play (or retard play according to LR polite posters) definitely is part of this. I mean, proxy 2 gates against Zerg is as risky (retarded) than what JD did in this game.
Definitely risky by Trap, but ...
- STX was up 3-2, so if Trap's risk doesn't pay off, it doesn't matter - JD is supposed to be head and shoulders above Trap (Maybe?) so why would a better player take a monumental risk to get ahead
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
I know, JD knows eveybody knows that. But this is not how you play starcraft. You want to surprise your opponent, get every advantage you can, and risky play (or retard play according to LR polite posters) definitely is part of this. I mean, proxy 2 gates against Zerg is as risky (retarded) than what JD did in this game.
Definitely risky by Trap, but ...
- STX was up 3-2, so if Trap's risk doesn't pay off, it doesn't matter - JD is supposed to be head and shoulders above Trap (Maybe?) so why would a better player take a monumental risk to get ahead
On April 22 2013 20:55 Cokefreak wrote: Outplayed.
Baiting hard.
JD was absolutely outplayed. A stupid build order without scouting deserves to lose. Micro and whatever doesn't count for anything if you can't get the very basics right.
You should teach the basics to JD, I'm sure he will be grateful.
I know you're trying to be snarky, but we're talking about such basic stuff (don't 15 hatch v P!) that yes, even I could teach him.
I know, JD knows eveybody knows that. But this is not how you play starcraft. You want to surprise your opponent, get every advantage you can, and risky play (or retard play according to LR polite posters) definitely is part of this. I mean, proxy 2 gates against Zerg is as risky (retarded) than what JD did in this game.
Definitely risky by Trap, but ...
- STX was up 3-2, so if Trap's risk doesn't pay off, it doesn't matter - JD is supposed to be head and shoulders above Trap (Maybe?) so why would a better player take a monumental risk to get ahead
JD got TRAPPED hard. X_X
JD isn't better then Trap.
I know.. but admitting that would burn a hole in my heart.
Coach Park is going to have a terrible time coming up for an entry for next week's game because of Dreamhack, and possibly WCS America Challenger League qualifiers if any of them can even take part if it's really on at the same time as Dreamhack.
On April 22 2013 23:19 Clefairy wrote: Coach Park is going to have a terrible time coming up for an entry for next week's game because of Dreamhack, and possibly WCS America Challenger League qualifiers if any of them can even take part if it's really on at the same time as Dreamhack.
EGTL only has 1 match next week and it's on Tuesday
All he had to do was scout and it was a free win...there's no way to gain a large advantage over a hatch first as long as he drone scouts...that was so disappointing an end to a fantastic match.
On April 23 2013 00:44 Shantastic wrote: All he had to do was scout and it was a free win...there's no way to gain a large advantage over a hatch first as long as he drone scouts...that was so disappointing an end to a fantastic match.
Trap did it because he knew that JD will not scout. Pretty sure that he analyzed his games. At least he is streaming periodically.
On April 23 2013 00:44 Shantastic wrote: All he had to do was scout and it was a free win...there's no way to gain a large advantage over a hatch first as long as he drone scouts...that was so disappointing an end to a fantastic match.
Trap did it because he knew that JD will not scout. Pretty sure that he analyzed his games. At least he is streaming periodically.
Yeah, i've seen Jaedong 15hatch often in ZvP... streaming is so bad for the players.
lol beside Bisu 4/6 of my players have won so far and all anti players have lost also. Pretty good round for me especially trading TY for Flash and Dear for herO(joint).
On April 22 2013 23:43 Gladiator333 wrote: Had to leave for work so missed after Taeja vs Innovation. But damn, Jaedong you have HerO on your team, practice that JvP?! T_T
Meh, HerO is not doing so well with pvz lately either.
I am not surprised they lost this match. Considering almost everyone on EGTL's line up today played in WCS NA past couple days which is pulling 2 all nighters I would not have been surprised if stx soul had 4-0'd them.
You know, after rewatching taeja vs bogus, I'm confused as to why bogus didn't move up to taeja's third after the first fight 13 minutes into the game. He had 8 tanks + 4 vikings while taeja only had 2 tanks and 4 marauders/ 4marines. His 4 vikings could see how many tanks there were and he could also take out taeja's tank on the high ground with the air vision. He had also successfully stopped taeja's harass on his own third so I'm not sure what his attention was on.
On April 23 2013 03:39 blade55555 wrote: I am not surprised they lost this match. Considering almost everyone on EGTL's line up today played in WCS NA past couple days which is pulling 2 all nighters I would not have been surprised if stx soul had 4-0'd them.
I can only imagine how tired they all were xD
That's true but it's not like they didn't know about the WCS tournament schedule beforehand. I'm sure coach park or the practice manager adjusted their schedules accordingly. Also, it's not really apparent from this match's performance that they were playing worse than usual. What's surprising is OZ pulling through in his match.
STX Soul so good now ^^ About JD, sometimes greedy play gets punished xD On an other note, I feel bad for him, I hope he can step up his ZvP. It's the only matchup he gets to play nowadays.
On April 23 2013 05:07 SneX wrote: STX Soul so good now ^^ About JD, sometimes greedy play gets punished xD On an other note, I feel bad for him, I hope he can step up his ZvP. Now that PL is toss heavy.
On April 22 2013 20:34 Emzeeshady wrote: now Jaedong loses ZvP
Ya, I was right
Seriously how have they maanaged to put him against a Toss almost every week. He is like Idra level ZvP (diamond level).
I'm certain you know but just in case, coaches select the players for each map, they don't know who they will face. It's just bad luck really. And cmon, his ZvP aint diamond level. Seen him won many zvp on his streams whle he was grandmaster.
Not too bad a day for my FPL. Only Oz counting against me, and hero lost. Glad I removed taeja from my anti-team, it's already bad enough having Oz and Hero on it.
On the plus side, this day will be very helpful to my argument that Taeja is the best terran in the world! :D
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