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On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide
Chess is probably the onf of the most respected and played strategy games in the world and there literally is no "underdog" factor. If you're the better and more talented player you will win. For a Grandmaster elo in Chess, a genius IQ is basically required.
I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent?
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On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent?
The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans. Watching a game where the outcome is still uncertain is much more exciting then a game where the result is already known, like when a team is already winning 4-0. It is a basic concept. Suspense is appealing.
SC2 is a game where surprise is a factor. Players try and disguise their plans/builds/tech path. They try and attack in places where their opponents army is not. Armies can be caught out of position. A player can cheese or make a surprise attack. No similar concept exists in Chess, where everything is visible. A player just needs to assess the possible moves and surprise is not possible. SC2 is not chess.
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On January 12 2013 11:42 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans.
We are talking about one on one strategy games. Where did soccer come from? That's not even comparing apples to oranges; that's comparing apples to cheeseburgers.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide Chess is probably the onf of the most respected and played strategy games in the world and there literally is no "underdog" factor. If you're the better and more talented player you will win. For a Grandmaster elo in Chess, a genius IQ is basically required.I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent?
That is patently false. Most grandmasters are no more intelligent than the average human being.
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On January 12 2013 11:45 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:42 revel8 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans. We are talking about one on one strategy games. Where did soccer come from? That's not even comparing apples to oranges; that's comparing apples to cheeseburgers.
The concept of an uncertain outcome is appealing to viewers. I addressed the surprise aspect above. The best stories are ones where the ending is not easily predicted.
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On January 12 2013 08:16 Laryleprakon wrote:
tt Mvp
Hopefully we see w/e zerg nerf blizzard ends up with before GSL starts.
Well, they are talking above removing upgrades for infested terrans. That could be huge
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On January 12 2013 11:45 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:42 revel8 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans. We are talking about one on one strategy games. Where did soccer come from? That's not even comparing apples to oranges; that's comparing apples to cheeseburgers.
And one is a video game while the other is a board game. So it is still comparing apples and cheeseburgers.
First of all, SC2 (and SC, other RTS) has fog of war so you don't have perfect information. Just this alone makes it much more volatile. Games like poker are good example of this.
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On January 12 2013 11:51 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 08:16 Laryleprakon wrote:
tt Mvp
Hopefully we see w/e zerg nerf blizzard ends up with before GSL starts. Well, they are talking above removing upgrades for infested terrans. That could be huge
It would definitely make mech play a bit better. And in low eco late games, it will make just having infestors throw out a bunch of infested terrans and getting back energy less effective.
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I'm so sad that my favorite player lost 0-3.
GG goswser, but the King will not be stopped. I will look forward to GSL Season 1 2013!
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On January 12 2013 11:53 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:45 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:42 revel8 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans. We are talking about one on one strategy games. Where did soccer come from? That's not even comparing apples to oranges; that's comparing apples to cheeseburgers. And one is a video game while the other is a board game. So it is still comparing apples and cheeseburgers. First of all, SC2 (and SC, other RTS) has fog of war so you don't have perfect information. Just this alone makes it much more volatile. Games like poker are good example of this.
This is true. Also, who the heck ever WATCH chess? It's like watching paint dry.
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If you wanna compare SC2 to chess, TvZ is like chess with extra queen for the Z.
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On January 12 2013 11:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide Chess is probably the onf of the most respected and played strategy games in the world and there literally is no "underdog" factor. If you're the better and more talented player you will win. For a Grandmaster elo in Chess, a genius IQ is basically required.I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? That is patently false. Most grandmasters are no more intelligent than the average human being.
That is patently false. Most grandmasters are no more intelligent than the average human being. [/QUOTE]
This is so blatantly false I don't know where to begin.
IQ having no impact on your achievements in life is a horrible and false myth, along the lines of "apm doesn't matter."
Do you honestly believe the average IQ of chess Grandmasters is 100?
Kasparov, Fisher, Polgar all have IQ's above 170.
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lab/7378/iq.htm shows Bill Wall's findings during his studies of IQ and Chess-- they are astoundingly supportive of an extremely high positive correlation between IQ and Chess skill.
Hell, even looking at something simple as one's occupation:
http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx
we see that IQ plays a very important role. Not so in SC2, however. At least not yet, while the talent pool is still very small and the game is still filled with too many variables.
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On January 12 2013 12:16 decado90 wrote:Hell, even looking at something simple as one's occupation: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspxwe see that IQ plays a very important role. Not so in SC2, however. At least not yet, while the talent pool is still very small and the game is still filled with too many variables.
Why are you still going on about Chess?
It is nothing like SC2 because the element of surprise does not factor in Chess, but it does in SC2. Hence scouting is an important part of SC2 but Chess does not require it.
The underdog factor is appealing to people.
An unknown outcome increases dramatic tension and enjoyment for viewers, which is why people don't like spoilers of sports results or in stories.
Two fairly simple concepts. You don't need 170 IQ to understand both.
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On January 12 2013 11:53 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:45 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:42 revel8 wrote:On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? The most popular sport in the world, football, is one where an underdog can beat a much more talented team. Happens all the time. It is part of the reason for it's popularity as it helps maintains the interest and optimism of fans. We are talking about one on one strategy games. Where did soccer come from? That's not even comparing apples to oranges; that's comparing apples to cheeseburgers. And one is a video game while the other is a board game. So it is still comparing apples and cheeseburgers. First of all, SC2 (and SC, other RTS) has fog of war so you don't have perfect information. Just this alone makes it much more volatile. Games like poker are good example of this.
if the player map hacks then he has perfect vision, or if he has a friend that is observing. Both of these are are much harder to prevent in on line tournies
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Not sure what to think about MVP losing 3-0. I;m gonna go watch the VOD now to see wth happened.
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That's a shame about Mvp, but maybe people can give goswser a little credit since he beat Mvp, rather than crediting his last round's win to beating a slumping MMA.
Of course, it has been said that Mvp is taking it easy until HotS, but the winner of IEM Singapore is still favored in my mind.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 12 2013 12:16 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 11:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 11:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 10:40 X3GoldDot wrote:On January 12 2013 10:38 decado90 wrote:On January 12 2013 08:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 12 2013 08:07 Canucklehead wrote:
People talk about goswser having prepared builds and sniping mvp, but when the skill difference is that great, sniping shouldn't be possible or even matter. Back in bw a foreigner could map hack against flash if he wanted to and he still wouldn't be able to beat him. It's just disappointing to see, which is why a lot of people have a problem with it. And if his physical problems are as bad as the evidence suggests, the skill difference isn't great enough to matter. You have any idea how many Korean Terrans Goswser has beaten? It's a lot more than just MVP. But, all in all I agree with the guy you quoted. Foreign vs Korean TvT and TvP are the only matchups you can predict with confidence anymore. Even if a player's skill is unrivaled by the other's-- Bomber vs Scarlett, Gumiho vs Vortix, Roro vs idra, or Grubby vs MC for example-- you can't blindly bet on the more skilled player like you could in BW. better player wins 100% of the time is a bullshit theory that should NEVER EVER happen, the underdog factor is what makes games interesting, as both players have enough chances to win that it wont be a 1sided landslide Chess is probably the onf of the most respected and played strategy games in the world and there literally is no "underdog" factor. If you're the better and more talented player you will win. For a Grandmaster elo in Chess, a genius IQ is basically required.I don't understand. You like games where both players have a decent chance to win, despite skill or talent? That is patently false. Most grandmasters are no more intelligent than the average human being. This is so blatantly false I don't know where to begin. IQ having no impact on your achievements in life is a horrible and false myth, along the lines of "apm doesn't matter." Do you honestly believe the average IQ of chess Grandmasters is 100? Kasparov, Fisher, Polgar all have IQ's above 170. http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lab/7378/iq.htm shows Bill Wall's findings during his studies of IQ and Chess-- they are astoundingly supportive of an extremely high positive correlation between IQ and Chess skill. Hell, even looking at something simple as one's occupation: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspxwe see that IQ plays a very important role. Not so in SC2, however. At least not yet, while the talent pool is still very small and the game is still filled with too many variables.
Bobby Fischer's IQ is allegedly 180 and 167 and 170, sources can't even agree on what it really was. The only source was the Stanford-Binet IQ he took at his high school, which was rumored to be 180. Kasparov's IQ is actually 135 when he was requested to take a test (which is slightly hilarious because it's lower than mine, yet I would never dare say I have the potential to surpass him in chess mastery). Ironically Judith Polgar was raised to play chess from childhood to prove that talent was irrelevant in the field, which only supports my point. Also you're using the highest performers for your point when multiple studies show that the correlation between IQ and performance drops drastically as you reach the very top.
Actually his findings prove the opposite: the correlation between IQ and chess suggests that chess helps increase cognitive functioning, not that people with innately high intelligence are better at chess than others.
And that graph proves what? That there is a correlation between "higher" occupations and higher IQ, which is what one would expect if cognitive ability could be influenced by everyday tasks?
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On January 12 2013 13:05 Za7oX wrote:
Not sure what to think about MVP losing 3-0. I;m gonna go watch the VOD now to see wth happened.
I didn't watch it but it's probably not worth your time. There's been no announcement that his wrists are getting any better which means they can only be getting worse, so I don't find it as an accomplishment that any other pro-gamer 3-0's him anymore. Some people just like to hype a foreigner beating one of the best koreans, even if the korean is hanging upside down with one hand tied behind his back.
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On January 11 2013 12:36 aLt_F4tw wrote:
Goswser mega upset would be great.
That was great.
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On January 12 2013 15:19 aLt_F4tw wrote:That was great.
What's more great is that you expected that to not happen with MVP's wrist. It's not an upset. Anyone with a brain was expecting it, especially in TvZ not to mention Goswser is a good player.
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EPT
