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[Code S] Semi-Finals 2012 GSL Season 5 - Page 186

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Genealogy
Profile Joined November 2012
Sweden65 Posts
December 01 2012 13:11 GMT
#3701
Waited until 4 AM to watch this, while watching some IPL5 as well, event started, I saw 4-5 Korean dudes speaking on the stage for a few seconds, and boom, my internet was cut Why karma, why?
tns
Profile Joined June 2011
1054 Posts
December 01 2012 13:23 GMT
#3702
Ryung I love you!!
firebathero miss u♥! http://youtu.be/AXkoG9GnpcM - 1998/11/30 to 2001/05/18 BW stabilized! - WoL v.alpha HotS v.beta LotD v.gamma... summer 2017 SC3 (sc1remastered)
RyuuZer0
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Australia36 Posts
December 01 2012 13:33 GMT
#3703
I have to admit that was pretty damn funny from Ryung.
Doubt I'll even watch the finals now, ZvZ puts me to sleep.
WigglingSquid
Profile Joined August 2011
5194 Posts
December 01 2012 13:35 GMT
#3704
Are there EHQ vods somewhere on GomTV?
budar
Profile Joined February 2011
175 Posts
December 01 2012 14:02 GMT
#3705
Nice to see people have moved from "BL/infestor OP" to "Zerg OP" as the Zerg players get most of their wins based on other plays.

Also, the few posts saying that Zerg is designed badly while Protoss design is mostly fine really made me laugh, so thanks for that :D. Any Zerg player will agree with you that Zerg design is very flawed (probably for slightly different reasons), but honestly, how can anyone think Protoss design is mostly fine? It's kind of the definition of bad design, mostly due to FF (as retarded or more retarded than fungal, but people have just accepted it after months of crying to no avail), Colossi (a-move massable AoE) and Mothership (hero units have no place in a competitive RTS, except in a WC3-like game to an extent).
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24813 Posts
December 01 2012 14:29 GMT
#3706
On December 01 2012 23:02 budar wrote:
Nice to see people have moved from "BL/infestor OP" to "Zerg OP" as the Zerg players get most of their wins based on other plays.

Also, the few posts saying that Zerg is designed badly while Protoss design is mostly fine really made me laugh, so thanks for that :D. Any Zerg player will agree with you that Zerg design is very flawed (probably for slightly different reasons), but honestly, how can anyone think Protoss design is mostly fine? It's kind of the definition of bad design, mostly due to FF (as retarded or more retarded than fungal, but people have just accepted it after months of crying to no avail), Colossi (a-move massable AoE) and Mothership (hero units have no place in a competitive RTS, except in a WC3-like game to an extent).

I said that Protoss designed is flawed if you would read exactly what I said. I believe it's my posts you're referring to anyway. I've advocated in the past things like, removing warpgate as a mechanic, enabling Protoss to have stronger gateway units that wouldn't have to rely on the sentry. You would also add some kind of change to gateway timings, or zealot build timings to prevent things like proxy gates being too good with stronger gateway units.

Anyway, Protoss have problems with design for sure, but in the specific case of PvZ, it's how Zerg design works, especially the larva mechanic. It's actually a problem with how TvZ works now as well, come to think of it. It's also that the balance between droning and offensive units, and optimal compositions being figured out by Zergs that has brought these Zerg problems into focus. In the days where Zergs were trying to go Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Deathballs, yes Protoss seemed broken in those days. As Zergs have figured things out better, it has brought the inherent advantages of the race into focus. Some of these interactions are the result of some very very smart players working things out on the Zerg end, and not at all to do with 'patch zergs' or anything.

1. Zerg have figured out openers that give incredible economy, very quickly. 3 hatch before gas, low-ling count openings would have been seen as suicidal back in the early days of WoL.
2. Because these kind of openings have been figured out, the advantages of Zerg at a fundamental level are more visible, and the benefits reaped from certain aspects of Zerg design.
3. Protoss because they rely on sentries to engage cost-efficiently, cannot do non-committal 'hard' pressures to try to slow down the Zerg economy. Or, if they do it's hugely risky, because losing sentries doing a poke and finding there's more units than you expected, outright loses the game for a Toss player. Zerg units are also faster than most gateway units, so you can't retreat.
4. Protoss can do pressures, but they're based around timings. Think of +1 Zealot 4 gate pressure builds. This isn't a pressure that Zergs had to figure out how to beat. The answer is really simple - 'build units'. It's a case of recognising that a Protoss is doing that build, and Zergs have gotten better at doing this. However, certain maps, and the ledges upon which overlords can be placed also contribute to this. On certain maps, unless you get a pylon out on the map, there is no way to send out stuff like a 4 gate +1 Zealot pressure without being spotted leaving your base. That alone gives the Zerg time to prepare 100% for the timing.
5. Zerg macro mechanics scale better with skill/mechanics than the Protoss ones do. A Zerg with perfect injects and good creepsread will benefit more than a Protoss player with perfect chronoboost. Thus as Zergs get better as a group at this stuff, the race design is exposed more and more as having, if not flaws, potential problems.

In a non-pressure game, a Zerg can achieve things that no other race can. The case in point that I can recall was one of the Hyun/Parting Fightclub series, and one game in particular, I think Metropolis.

He managed to get something like, maxed with a bunch of infestors, hive tech finished, 5 hatches taken AND was pressuring Parting as well. At 13ish minutes.

No other race, even in a game literally against no opponent, can achieve that combination of economy/tech/standing army, in that timing apart from Zergs. Partly that is because Hyun is a phenomenal player, who I respect a lot.

However, you could put literally anyone who plays SC2 in a custom game to practice the greediest builds possible/viable, and I don't think you could achieve that mix of infrastructure with Protoss or Terran.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Undead1993
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany17651 Posts
December 01 2012 14:32 GMT
#3707
On December 01 2012 21:45 THM wrote:
What can I say, Ryung said it best in the end of Game 5
The changes tested on the antiga balance map can't come early enough.

you know, that they say they won't change the infestor whatsoever.
SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
December 01 2012 14:32 GMT
#3708
Holy shit, I was wondering why this Innovation guy looked so familiar then I realized he was (T)Bogus.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 14:47:03
December 01 2012 14:46 GMT
#3709
2012 Patch-Zerg Olympiad : Las Vegas







j/k :p
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
December 01 2012 14:48 GMT
#3710
On December 01 2012 23:32 Undead1993 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 21:45 THM wrote:
What can I say, Ryung said it best in the end of Game 5
The changes tested on the antiga balance map can't come early enough.

you know, that they say they won't change the infestor whatsoever.

No, they don't say that at all.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
December 01 2012 14:51 GMT
#3711
I just wake up and it seems the world is burning
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Mensol
Profile Joined September 2012
14536 Posts
December 01 2012 14:54 GMT
#3712
Ryung, The people's champion.
If you don't know what the fuck you are doing, how are your enemies supposed to know what the fuck you are doing. - imaqtpie on NA teams at Worlds.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
December 01 2012 14:55 GMT
#3713
Glad that one of the moon-4 got the boot... Unfortunately he will return to code s next season but 3 out of 4 are out of the gsl entirely so i cant complain
Rhaegar_tar
Profile Joined February 2012
France847 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 14:59:28
December 01 2012 14:58 GMT
#3714
A zvz finals...great -_-
MHT
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1026 Posts
December 01 2012 15:16 GMT
#3715
NOOOOO! not ZvZ!!
budar
Profile Joined February 2011
175 Posts
December 01 2012 15:27 GMT
#3716
On December 01 2012 23:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 23:02 budar wrote:
Nice to see people have moved from "BL/infestor OP" to "Zerg OP" as the Zerg players get most of their wins based on other plays.

Also, the few posts saying that Zerg is designed badly while Protoss design is mostly fine really made me laugh, so thanks for that :D. Any Zerg player will agree with you that Zerg design is very flawed (probably for slightly different reasons), but honestly, how can anyone think Protoss design is mostly fine? It's kind of the definition of bad design, mostly due to FF (as retarded or more retarded than fungal, but people have just accepted it after months of crying to no avail), Colossi (a-move massable AoE) and Mothership (hero units have no place in a competitive RTS, except in a WC3-like game to an extent).


snip..

5. Zerg macro mechanics scale better with skill/mechanics than the Protoss ones do. A Zerg with perfect injects and good creepsread will benefit more than a Protoss player with perfect chronoboost. Thus as Zergs get better as a group at this stuff, the race design is exposed more and more as having, if not flaws, potential problems.

snip..

I'm not sure if I was referring to your post, but in any case, this post you wrote now I consider very reasonable. However, if you consider your points from a slightly different point of view, you'll easily see that Protoss design plays just as big a role in these issues. For example, all of FF, warpgate and Colossi contribute to why gateway units (zealots and stalkers) can't really fight against any army on reasonable terms.

1. They rely on FFs basically cutting off half the opponents army at which point gateway units stack up well against the other half.
2. Warpgate allows insane offensive production at certain points of a game that basically eliminates the defender's advantage which is a crucial aspect of balancing economy and units for Zerg. This means that Zerg either crushes the attack if they see it coming in time, or they straight up die because it's basically impossible to "gain momentum" while defending a warpgate attack.
3. Colossi provide such insane (and uninteresting) AoE that warpgate units turn into meat shields. Colossi don't support the army (like a Reaver does for example), they *are* the army. For proof of that, see any TvP battle in which the Colossi are killed of quickly.

All these things are just the tip of the iceberg that is the design problems of SC2. As anyone who actually thinks about these things from a maximally unbiased point of view understands, it's extremely complex. For what it's worth, I personally think Brood War has design problems as well (for one, most spells are extremely "overpowered"), but they turned out to create an insanely interesting game because of extreme mechanical difficulty and extreme dedication of the players who figured things out.

That's actually the thing that annoys me the most. All of these SC2 LR threads turn into balance whines so quickly while the balance is fairly good considering how complex the "balancing act" is.

Anyway, the point I quoted above I agree with 100%. As a matter of fact, I've considered both Larva inject and MULE very problematic additions to the game from the get-go, while I though chronoboost might have some potential to be interesting. However, chronoboost turned out to be completely uninteresting and has pretty obvious uses, mostly in developing your economy/build in the early game and getting upgrades later on. MULE and Larva inject have actually proven to be problematic, but it has taken a lot longer for Larva inject to "become a problem" because it is so much harder to use than either MULE or chronoboost. The MULE problem has been masked by many Terran nerfs, but that's actually a potential reason why Terran is struggling nowadays.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 15:32:36
December 01 2012 15:32 GMT
#3717
Did Ryung get criticised for saying imba? I missed this. :D
sHt_
Profile Joined January 2011
France239 Posts
December 01 2012 15:32 GMT
#3718
As much as i wanted Ryung to win the whole thing, i didn't expected much of him after i saw that he lost to Huk earlier that day :d
(nothing against Huk, i cheered for him long time ago, but i've seen his play lately and it's pretty bad, imo and if you can't beat him at the moment you shouldn't end up in the GSL final.)

On a side note, TB YOUR AWESOME :p
In Blizzard's imaginary world, players sit at home devising plans to maximize the usage of destructible rocks (c) Ver
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
December 01 2012 15:38 GMT
#3719
On December 02 2012 00:32 darkness wrote:
Did Ryung get criticised for saying imba? I missed this. :D

you can say that...

[image loading]
esports will never forget
Dougalis
Profile Joined June 2011
Great Britain59 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 15:45:23
December 01 2012 15:44 GMT
#3720
On December 01 2012 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 21:13 opterown wrote:
On December 01 2012 21:02 Wombat_NI wrote:
MMA vs DRG at Blizzcup is an example of two top level players meeting at the peak of their powers. Regardless of who you were rooting for, you didn't get the sense that your boy didn't bring his chops to the table.

they both played kinda meh except for the last game haha

Hm, good thing my friend just decided to let me log on his GOM acc, which has all every single GOM-streamed tourney VoDs accessible.

You might be right, perhaps game 7 was just so good that it is influencing my views on the rest of the series. Going to actually re-watch and see.


game 2(i think) was also fucking brilliant just saying, the engaagments in that match where probably some of the best ive ever seen in sc2 , fucking brilliant series. when mma picked up his tanks and dropped them on the infestors i think i nearly wet my pants, still have those games on my hdd , watch them every now and then
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