EPT
Why karma, why?[Code S] Semi-Finals 2012 GSL Season 5 - Page 186
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Genealogy
Sweden65 Posts
Why karma, why? | ||
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tns
1054 Posts
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RyuuZer0
Australia36 Posts
Doubt I'll even watch the finals now, ZvZ puts me to sleep. | ||
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
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budar
175 Posts
Also, the few posts saying that Zerg is designed badly while Protoss design is mostly fine really made me laugh, so thanks for that :D. Any Zerg player will agree with you that Zerg design is very flawed (probably for slightly different reasons), but honestly, how can anyone think Protoss design is mostly fine?  It's kind of the definition of bad design, mostly due to FF (as retarded or more retarded than fungal, but people have just accepted it after months of crying to no avail), Colossi (a-move massable AoE) and Mothership (hero units have no place in a competitive RTS, except in a WC3-like game to an extent). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24853 Posts
On December 01 2012 23:02 budar wrote: Nice to see people have moved from "BL/infestor OP" to "Zerg OP" as the Zerg players get most of their wins based on other plays. Also, the few posts saying that Zerg is designed badly while Protoss design is mostly fine really made me laugh, so thanks for that :D. Any Zerg player will agree with you that Zerg design is very flawed (probably for slightly different reasons), but honestly, how can anyone think Protoss design is mostly fine? It's kind of the definition of bad design, mostly due to FF (as retarded or more retarded than fungal, but people have just accepted it after months of crying to no avail), Colossi (a-move massable AoE) and Mothership (hero units have no place in a competitive RTS, except in a WC3-like game to an extent).I said that Protoss designed is flawed if you would read exactly what I said. I believe it's my posts you're referring to anyway. I've advocated in the past things like, removing warpgate as a mechanic, enabling Protoss to have stronger gateway units that wouldn't have to rely on the sentry. You would also add some kind of change to gateway timings, or zealot build timings to prevent things like proxy gates being too good with stronger gateway units. Anyway, Protoss have problems with design for sure, but in the specific case of PvZ, it's how Zerg design works, especially the larva mechanic. It's actually a problem with how TvZ works now as well, come to think of it. It's also that the balance between droning and offensive units, and optimal compositions being figured out by Zergs that has brought these Zerg problems into focus. In the days where Zergs were trying to go Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Deathballs, yes Protoss seemed broken in those days. As Zergs have figured things out better, it has brought the inherent advantages of the race into focus. Some of these interactions are the result of some very very smart players working things out on the Zerg end, and not at all to do with 'patch zergs' or anything. 1. Zerg have figured out openers that give incredible economy, very quickly. 3 hatch before gas, low-ling count openings would have been seen as suicidal back in the early days of WoL. 2. Because these kind of openings have been figured out, the advantages of Zerg at a fundamental level are more visible, and the benefits reaped from certain aspects of Zerg design. 3. Protoss because they rely on sentries to engage cost-efficiently, cannot do non-committal 'hard' pressures to try to slow down the Zerg economy. Or, if they do it's hugely risky, because losing sentries doing a poke and finding there's more units than you expected, outright loses the game for a Toss player. Zerg units are also faster than most gateway units, so you can't retreat. 4. Protoss can do pressures, but they're based around timings. Think of +1 Zealot 4 gate pressure builds. This isn't a pressure that Zergs had to figure out how to beat. The answer is really simple - 'build units'. It's a case of recognising that a Protoss is doing that build, and Zergs have gotten better at doing this. However, certain maps, and the ledges upon which overlords can be placed also contribute to this. On certain maps, unless you get a pylon out on the map, there is no way to send out stuff like a 4 gate +1 Zealot pressure without being spotted leaving your base. That alone gives the Zerg time to prepare 100% for the timing. 5. Zerg macro mechanics scale better with skill/mechanics than the Protoss ones do. A Zerg with perfect injects and good creepsread will benefit more than a Protoss player with perfect chronoboost. Thus as Zergs get better as a group at this stuff, the race design is exposed more and more as having, if not flaws, potential problems. In a non-pressure game, a Zerg can achieve things that no other race can. The case in point that I can recall was one of the Hyun/Parting Fightclub series, and one game in particular, I think Metropolis. He managed to get something like, maxed with a bunch of infestors, hive tech finished, 5 hatches taken AND was pressuring Parting as well. At 13ish minutes. No other race, even in a game literally against no opponent, can achieve that combination of economy/tech/standing army, in that timing apart from Zergs. Partly that is because Hyun is a phenomenal player, who I respect a lot. However, you could put literally anyone who plays SC2 in a custom game to practice the greediest builds possible/viable, and I don't think you could achieve that mix of infrastructure with Protoss or Terran. | ||
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:45 THM wrote: What can I say, Ryung said it best in the end of Game 5 The changes tested on the antiga balance map can't come early enough. you know, that they say they won't change the infestor whatsoever. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
 Bogus. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
j/k :p | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On December 01 2012 23:32 Undead1993 wrote: you know, that they say they won't change the infestor whatsoever. No, they don't say that at all. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Mensol
14536 Posts
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farnham
1378 Posts
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Rhaegar_tar
France847 Posts
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MHT
Sweden1026 Posts
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budar
175 Posts
On December 01 2012 23:29 Wombat_NI wrote: snip.. 5. Zerg macro mechanics scale better with skill/mechanics than the Protoss ones do. A Zerg with perfect injects and good creepsread will benefit more than a Protoss player with perfect chronoboost. Thus as Zergs get better as a group at this stuff, the race design is exposed more and more as having, if not flaws, potential problems. snip.. I'm not sure if I was referring to your post, but in any case, this post you wrote now I consider very reasonable. However, if you consider your points from a slightly different point of view, you'll easily see that Protoss design plays just as big a role in these issues. For example, all of FF, warpgate and Colossi contribute to why gateway units (zealots and stalkers) can't really fight against any army on reasonable terms. 1. They rely on FFs basically cutting off half the opponents army at which point gateway units stack up well against the other half. 2. Warpgate allows insane offensive production at certain points of a game that basically eliminates the defender's advantage which is a crucial aspect of balancing economy and units for Zerg. This means that Zerg either crushes the attack if they see it coming in time, or they straight up die because it's basically impossible to "gain momentum" while defending a warpgate attack. 3. Colossi provide such insane (and uninteresting) AoE that warpgate units turn into meat shields. Colossi don't support the army (like a Reaver does for example), they *are* the army. For proof of that, see any TvP battle in which the Colossi are killed of quickly. All these things are just the tip of the iceberg that is the design problems of SC2. As anyone who actually thinks about these things from a maximally unbiased point of view understands, it's extremely complex. For what it's worth, I personally think Brood War has design problems as well (for one, most spells are extremely "overpowered"), but they turned out to create an insanely interesting game because of extreme mechanical difficulty and extreme dedication of the players who figured things out. That's actually the thing that annoys me the most. All of these SC2 LR threads turn into balance whines so quickly while the balance is fairly good considering how complex the "balancing act" is. Anyway, the point I quoted above I agree with 100%. As a matter of fact, I've considered both Larva inject and MULE very problematic additions to the game from the get-go, while I though chronoboost might have some potential to be interesting. However, chronoboost turned out to be completely uninteresting and has pretty obvious uses, mostly in developing your economy/build in the early game and getting upgrades later on. MULE and Larva inject have actually proven to be problematic, but it has taken a lot longer for Larva inject to "become a problem" because it is so much harder to use than either MULE or chronoboost. The MULE problem has been masked by many Terran nerfs, but that's actually a potential reason why Terran is struggling nowadays. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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sHt_
France239 Posts
(nothing against Huk, i cheered for him long time ago, but i've seen his play lately and it's pretty bad, imo and if you can't beat him at the moment you shouldn't end up in the GSL final.) On a side note, TB YOUR AWESOME :p | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On December 02 2012 00:32 darkness wrote: Did Ryung get criticised for saying imba? I missed this. :D you can say that... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2kX7Q.png) esports will never forget  | ||
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Dougalis
Great Britain59 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Hm, good thing my friend just decided to let me log on his GOM acc, which has all every single GOM-streamed tourney VoDs accessible. You might be right, perhaps game 7 was just so good that it is influencing my views on the rest of the series. Going to actually re-watch and see. game 2(i think) was also fucking brilliant just saying, the engaagments in that match where probably some of the best ive ever seen in sc2 , fucking brilliant series. when mma picked up his tanks and dropped them on the infestors i think i nearly wet my pants, still have those games on my hdd , watch them every now and then | ||
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