god that would have been pretty shameful if slivko had given that win to bling after the absurd advantage he had. Bling definitely needs to work on his PvZ.
His name is definitely french-like. And he spoke french to Stephano at Assembly. I got the impression he stated he was french. He certainly doesn't have the typical french accent in english but neither does he have a particular accent in french.
D.Apollo's computer not powerful enough to stream/cast with SC2 at high level graphics? You'd think Scan would sort him out with some powerful hardware! LOL
Anyway, D.Apollo listens! See - he cares about his viewers! Keep rocking D.Apollo!
Slivko showing his cautiousness that he displayed at IEM Sao Paolo. Namely getting the superior army through brilliant macro but then waiting and waiting rather than attacking. That's exactly how he lost in that tournament against SuperNova. It worked out in that first game against BLing, but sometimes it can allow the opponent to catch up in supply and tech. Slivko could have attacked way before Archon Toilet was possible.
His name is definitely french-like. And he spoke french to Stephano at Assembly. I got the impression he stated he was french. He certainly doesn't have the typical french accent in english but neither does he have a particular accent in french.
On March 05 2012 00:45 Seraphone wrote: It's funny how every single Zerg is now doing the DRG opening vs Protoss since he stomped every Toss at MLG/GSL.
Took them long enough to figure out to react properly. Hope they will do better so the whining will stop. Should be game - 2:0 Slivko vs Bling. Well done by slivko in game 2.
On March 05 2012 00:45 Seraphone wrote: It's funny how every single Zerg is now doing the DRG opening vs Protoss since he stomped every Toss at MLG/GSL.
this was more stephano like opening with double gas on 40, drg drones to 55-60 and takes 3 gas later
On March 05 2012 00:45 Seraphone wrote: It's funny how every single Zerg is now doing the DRG opening vs Protoss since he stomped every Toss at MLG/GSL.
Took them long enough to figure out to react properly. Hope they will do better so the whining will stop. Should be game - 2:0 Slivko vs Bling. Well done by slivko in game 2.
DRG's build just absolutely rapes two base all in's because you get so many early drones by skipping gas but the roaches/ling speed hit just as the Protoss comes so your production is just way ahead.
I could see Protoss struggling for a while once everyone rips DRG off and they have to rethink their builds.
On March 05 2012 00:45 Seraphone wrote: It's funny how every single Zerg is now doing the DRG opening vs Protoss since he stomped every Toss at MLG/GSL.
this was more stephano like opening with double gas on 40, drg drones to 55-60 and takes 3 gas later
He does it slightly differently depending on the map and how many gas he scouts from the Protoss.
Is the stream super laggy for anyone else? I'm getting random video freezes.
Also, I wish the observer was calmer with the camera/mouse. I really don't like randomly boxing things that show no information whatsoever. Especially spam boxing.
On March 05 2012 01:25 garbanzo wrote: Is the stream super laggy for anyone else? I'm getting random video freezes.
Also, I wish the observer was calmer with the camera/mouse. I really don't like randomly boxing things that show no information whatsoever. Especially spam boxing.
Yeah from time to time there are some freezes... only thing that´s strange is that it´s also happening to guys from the US as well, usually twitch is doing that for us in EU.
Man, Grubby always has hidden HTs. Somehow, he always has one up his sleeve or his back pocket. It feels like Grubby still has the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade.
On March 05 2012 01:26 davidk wrote: Crazy opening??! Sounding good! Please keep me posted! (can't watch stream -
Cloud opened with CC first, grubby with gateway + forge and applies pressure with cannon + zealot, cloud holds but with quite some scv losses, so his early cc advantage is sort of denied.
Maybe they should try switch back to low graphics. I don't know if that has anything to do with the problems but it was fine before (except for the lower quality, of course).
On March 05 2012 01:40 AlternativeEgo wrote: Maybe they should try switch back to low graphics. I don't know if that has anything to do with the problems but it was fine before (except for the lower quality, of course).
Yeah, I don't recall having issues with the lower graphics setting.
On March 05 2012 02:02 Youtakenocandle wrote: No offense to cloud but if you want to become a sc2 legend, then losing to an european terran isn't a good sign.
Umm...so you're instead offending European Terrans like Kas and Happy?
On March 05 2012 02:02 Youtakenocandle wrote: No offense to cloud but if you want to become a sc2 legend, then losing to an european terran isn't a good sign.
You probably meant no offense "Grubby".
1. It was a pretty minor but very important mistake that put him behind quite a lot.
2. The series is not over yet - what´s your point.
3.If you´re trolling - try harder and be smarter about it.
Just think, those two hidden bases in bottom right won Grubby that game. Cloud had units waypointed to scout that position before any mining had occurred there, but he recalled them before they scouted there! That decision proved crucial. On such small issues can games be decided.
Grubby took the risk of a sneaky move and it paid off. Well played.
Cloud played really well, especially first game where he held the early aggression and if he read the game correctly that grubby was greedy, he could have won it no problem. Second game it was Grubby making a huge blunder with the messed up scout and Cloud reacted perfectly. Game 3 Grubby was pretty strong with decision making and unit control. The one thing I really missed, because it is such a nice map for doing it, multiple drops by terran. I think Cloud didn´t do a single drop that game. When Grubby is spread out thin MMM will be able to smash heads. Cloud was probably afraid of HTs feedbacking the dropships, too timid imho. Grubby on the other hand made a ballsy hidden 4th - and it paid off.
Does diestar train a lot ? His play looked really weak. Late on upgrades, bad army composition and really weird pushes, with less than half his tanks sieged.
On March 05 2012 03:38 MandoRelease wrote: Does diestar train a lot ? His play looked really weak. Late on upgrades, bad army composition and really weird pushes, with less than half his tanks sieged.
stephano just knows how to use lings properly, which means he has loads of gas for fast infestors, upgrades and hive.
terran have to make tanks, stim, combat shield and medivacs before upgrades... otherwise you can't even beat lings.
"marines are OP" is a myth.... they're godlike, but lings and zealots are godlike as well, so it's not OP.
I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
On March 05 2012 03:52 Nouar wrote: I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
this attack is where you really see the difference between euro terrans and koreans like Polt or aLive... the targetting of infestors with tanks was inexistent here, and he got owned.
@ nam nam : he lived in Los Angeles, and doesn't really have an british accent.
On March 05 2012 03:52 Nouar wrote: I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
Wouldn't the uk be a better guess?
He sounds American, though. No hint of a British accent.
On March 05 2012 03:52 Nouar wrote: I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
He live in LA i think. But yeah, his english is very very very good if he's french. oO
On March 05 2012 03:52 Nouar wrote: I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
He live in LA i think. But yeah, his english is very very very good for a french.
Ah, that explains his constant use of the word "bro" :p I like him, he's pretty good.
On March 05 2012 03:52 Nouar wrote: I kinda like that other commentator, not doing a bad job, no really bad habits at the first sight... Seems fine.
good diction, no hesitation... If that guy is french he's lived at least 10 years in the US or has an english-speaking parent cause I've NEVER heard a french from france speaking without the least bit of accent like that.
Wouldn't the uk be a better guess?
He sounds American, though. No hint of a British accent.
I think he is from US since he do got a slight american accent but maybe he lived in french thats why he speak it so well or got a french parent.
Good play by Stephano. Diestar could not really do much to stop him in that last game. He almost won the first big battle, when he pushed with Marauders and Hellions but that Spine Crawler was the difference. After that Stephano looked pretty comfortable. His Overlord spread was excellent in the mid/late game.
Stephano, or how to get away with a double hatch first vs a top EU terran o_O Pretty exciting ZvP coming ahead, I just hope it won't be a mirror final -.-
The thing is, Stephano doesn't have to try very hard to beat EU Terrans. His unit control alone wins him games he should not be able to roll through given the BOs. Look at those two games - first game Diestar hard countered Stephano's roach-ling bust with hellion-marauders and did zero damage in the counter attack. Second game Stephano went double expand before pool and Diestar couldn't punish him for it. That's the problem with EU Terrans.
On March 05 2012 04:02 Azarkon wrote: The thing is, Stephano doesn't have to try very hard to beat EU Terrans. His unit control alone wins him games he should not be able to roll through given the BOs. Look at those two games - first game Diestar hard countered Stephano's roach-ling bust with hellion-marauders and did zero damage in the counter attack. Second game Stephano went double expand before pool and Diestar couldn't punish him for it. That's the problem with EU Terrans.
Yeah, you can clearly see Stephano isn't trying very hard against foreign terrans. :/
On March 05 2012 03:38 MandoRelease wrote: Does diestar train a lot ? His play looked really weak. Late on upgrades, bad army composition and really weird pushes, with less than half his tanks sieged.
Stephano can have this effect on the other player when he plays :D
Poor showing by Grubby. Every time I see him play PvZ I feel like he's got a mental block in that match up.
More Millennium team kills coming. On one hand they do deserve it as one of the best EU teams, on the other hand I kind of don't like watching team mates hard countering each other because they know each other so well. Meh.
On March 05 2012 04:43 Azarkon wrote: Poor showing by Grubby. Every time I see him play PvZ I feel like he's got a mental block in that match up.
More Millennium team kills coming. On one hand they do deserve it as one of the best EU teams, on the other hand I kind of don't like watching team mates hard countering each other because they know each other so well. Meh.
It's not going to be the case. If Feast knows Stephano's playstyle it's because he's on the top of EU, not because he's from the same team as him. Millenium players don't train together that much.
On March 05 2012 04:40 Noocta wrote: Slivko and Titan, new generation of european pro on the rise !
Both are Russian too, and when you add guys like Bratok & Happy Russia is looking like a strong contender to Sweden and Ukraine in EU domination.
Not supricing the russians have seen the huge amount of money in sc2 so expect in the next years a huge surge of fantastic and upcomming russian and eastern european players
Are the twitch transcoders not working for others as well? For some reason the stream is quite laggy for me (I can normally watch 1080p fine) and am unable to turn it down a notch.
This game is like deja vu, except Stephano didn't go infestors and Feast didn't gg out as soon as his push failed. But really, is that push supposed to work? Seems like the top Zergs all know how to handle it.
On March 05 2012 04:40 Noocta wrote: Slivko and Titan, new generation of european pro on the rise !
Both are Russian too, and when you add guys like Bratok & Happy Russia is looking like a strong contender to Sweden and Ukraine in EU domination.
Not supricing the russians have seen the huge amount of money in sc2 so expect in the next years a huge surge of fantastic and upcomming russian and eastern european players
Hopefully we can start seeing them at more Euro tournaments in the coming months.
On March 05 2012 05:16 zerker2strong wrote: nice try apollo but he made lings cuz he forgot his greater spire and he is affraid for a push lool
Didn't look like he forgot. He was getting double air upgrades on his 2 spires. He started greater spire right as they finished. Just didnt need it. Corruptors were for colossus.
This game really demonstrated how the strength of economy is the most important thing in Starcraft. Stephano could throw away virtually as much as he liked there and still never lose.
On March 05 2012 05:44 Crying wrote: Seriously does stephano loses ever PVZ?
Please don't start this, someone will just angrily answer you that he beat just scrub protosses and that probably, maybe, perhaps, i don't know, can be, could possibly be at the same level of a random codeA protoss.
Yea i've seen that he beated TitaN , but i didn't watched the games to say if it was because stephano got outplayed.Really macro game vs Stephano seems hell,and he's as cheese proof as Fantasy in BW
On March 05 2012 05:44 Crying wrote: Seriously does stephano loses ever PVZ?
Against Titan last week.
Well, I'd say he didn't play 100% against Titan, he played not safe all-ins with no tech behind, as if he wanted the games to be short. Still Titan played much better than Feast with much better thought builds and deserved to win.
Only protoss really giving a hard time to Stephano is MC, games between those two are tense and beautiful, but in the end, MC wins
Edit : Not saying MC would be the only one, probably any top Code S protoss (Oz, Puzzle, Genius, HerO) would, but MC is the only one he faced in tournaments lately (counting out the win vs HerO at the Blizzard cup where HerO wasn't really here)
On March 05 2012 05:44 Crying wrote: Seriously does stephano loses ever PVZ?
Please don't start this, someone will just angrily answer you that he beat just scrub protosses and that probably, maybe, perhaps, i don't know, can be, could possibly be at the same level of a random codeA protoss.
I don't get what you are freaking out over. Do you have a problem with someone thinking Stephano is Code A level or something?
On March 05 2012 05:44 Crying wrote: Seriously does stephano loses ever PVZ?
He lost to Titan this week in the Raidcall tourny.
How was the series?
I just had time to watch the last one and all I could see was an incredibly trolly Stephano going for an endless 3base v 3base stream of roach/ling that was obviously not going to work since Titan didn't 2base-push but went for a 3rd and had enough gas to go double robo fast enough to render the typical Stephano's 12min 3base maxed on roaches strategy useless.
Given how effective Stephano's attacks are on the third at Daybreak, I'm surprised no European Protosses work on walling it off completely with cannons behind. Korean Protosses have been doing it for quite some time, and even Polt, as Terran, tried walling it fully with depots and a bunker during his Asus game with Stephano.
On March 05 2012 05:52 Woizit wrote: Given how effective Stephano's attacks are on the third at Daybreak, I'm surprised no European Protosses work on walling it off completely with cannons behind. Korean Protosses have been doing it for quite some time, and even Polt, as Terran, tried walling it fully with depots and a bunker during his Asus game with Stephano.
To be honest your third should be always walled with 3 gateways and a single cannon in PVZ,no matter what.Runbys in starcraft 2 are so much more deadly than BW.
On March 05 2012 05:44 Crying wrote: Seriously does stephano loses ever PVZ?
He lost to Titan this week in the Raidcall tourny.
How was the series?
I just had time to watch the last one and all I could see was an incredibly trolly Stephano going for an endless 3base v 3base stream of roach/ling that was obviously not going to work since Titan didn't 2base-push but went for a 3rd and had enough gas to go double robo fast enough to render the typical Stephano's 12min 3base maxed on roaches strategy useless.
He won the first one pretty easily and the second was pretty epic. Stephano went pool 10 into expand, very bizarre build, then he went into double spire, mass mutalisks and he played with them for 20 min. He was not far from the win, but he was struggle on 2 bases where Titan was on 3. gg.
Difference between Feast and Titan is that Titan had a 2-base pressure build that transitioned smoothly into 3-base macro. Feast had his third denied multiple times in the first game and in the second game he failed to put enough pressure on until it was too late.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
Is not. Unless you consider players like Lucky,Violet, Zenio, Hyung, Inori, Polt, Puma not top end Koreans, that is. He did very poorly at the HSC (being tired & half drunk doesn't help, although I'm not sure he would have done better if not, MC & MKP were in top shape), lost to Polt more than he won, but that doesn't make his record terrible.
And now ZvZ, Slivko has a chance, Stephano tends to rely on his micro a lot, and sometimes it fails.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
He just beat Zenio 2-0 yesterday. But he struggled v. Polt (although he did take a series off him in a small tournament) and at HSC4 he played poorly, although apparently he was hungover.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
Is not. Unless you consider players like Lucky,Violet, Zenio, Hyung, Inori, Polt, Puma not top end Koreans, that is. He did very poorly at the HSC (being tired & half drunk doesn't help, although I'm not sure he would have done better if not, MC & MKP were in top shape), lost to Polt more than he won, but that doesn't make his record terrible.
And now ZvZ, Slivko has a chance, Stephano tends to rely on his micro a lot, and sometimes it fails.
Neither Hyung, nor Inori nor Puma are top koreans. Violet, Lucky end Zenio aren't top end koreans aswell (though they are s-level). Polt is the only one and most of the time I see them playing Stephano loses (even if played on EU server...)...
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
Is not. Unless you consider players like Lucky,Violet, Zenio, Hyung, Inori, Polt, Puma not top end Koreans, that is. He did very poorly at the HSC (being tired & half drunk doesn't help, although I'm not sure he would have done better if not, MC & MKP were in top shape), lost to Polt more than he won, but that doesn't make his record terrible.
And now ZvZ, Slivko has a chance, Stephano tends to rely on his micro a lot, and sometimes it fails.
Plus he beat Hero and DRG at Blizzard Cup. So Stephano has demonstrated he can take games from a lot of top Koreans.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
Is not. Unless you consider players like Lucky,Violet, Zenio, Hyung, Inori, Polt, Puma not top end Koreans, that is. He did very poorly at the HSC (being tired & half drunk doesn't help, although I'm not sure he would have done better if not, MC & MKP were in top shape), lost to Polt more than he won, but that doesn't make his record terrible.
And now ZvZ, Slivko has a chance, Stephano tends to rely on his micro a lot, and sometimes it fails.
Neither Hyung, nor Inori nor Puma are top koreans. Violet, Lucky end Zenio aren't top end koreans aswell (though they are s-level). Polt is the only one and most of the time I see them playing Stephano loses (even if played on EU server...)...
Well, Stephano beated Polt 3 2 in the finals of an online cup a few weeks ago (on EU server), but lost 2 semi-finals of the MSI pro cup against him and lost assembly as well. He has a problem with Polt style. And I'm just saying his record is not terrible , I'm not saying he is crushing koreans left and right; he is obviously not and he is far from being able to win Code S, although I'm fairly sure he could hold his own on Code A qualifiers / first Code S rounds.
And I'll break it to you, being code S is top level, unless you limit top level to the very best 5 - 6 players in the world, which Stephano isn't in, that I won't argue with you about
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
Is not. Unless you consider players like Lucky,Violet, Zenio, Hyung, Inori, Polt, Puma not top end Koreans, that is. He did very poorly at the HSC (being tired & half drunk doesn't help, although I'm not sure he would have done better if not, MC & MKP were in top shape), lost to Polt more than he won, but that doesn't make his record terrible.
And now ZvZ, Slivko has a chance, Stephano tends to rely on his micro a lot, and sometimes it fails.
Neither Hyung, nor Inori nor Puma are top koreans. Violet, Lucky end Zenio aren't top end koreans aswell (though they are s-level). Polt is the only one and most of the time I see them playing Stephano loses (even if played on EU server...)...
People can think that that he can't beat top level koreans, it's a respectable opinion.
The 'point' is that this Seraphone hater user is argumenting the fact that Stephano's not codeS level beacuse he doesn't beat "toplevel koreans" often.
As if current 2012 season1 codeS players like Lucky, Yugioh, Curious, Inca, Keen, Nada can do any better?
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
First of all let me just say, that Stephano is easily the best non Korean player right now. He's the most consistant, the most solid across all matchups and in general just clearly the best foreign player.
However, against Koreans he hasn't done that well since ESWC. And when he has beaten Koreans since then it's been against Code B Koreans like Puma.
Another thing is that people on TL/Reddit always say foreigners are Code S/A level but when they go to Korea they lose, always. Just look at Idra, Huk, Morrow, Thorzain, Sase, Naniwa, Sjow, Select, Tod.
All of them have been to Korea with all sorts of people thinking they are good enough for Code S and/or Code A and in most cases they have been raped. At best they do what Sjow did where he beats a poor player in Sjow's best matchup and his opponents worst and then get dropped soon after.
Not one single foreigner has ever won through Code B.
You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
You can say that MKP and MC are the cream of the crop but neither made the Round of 4 in Code S. MKP didn't get out of the second group. Polt who slammed Stephano pretty hard at Assembly is in Code B. Code S (in fact GSL in general) is incredibly fucking difficult now and if you win 50% of your games (which Stephano doesn't, he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans) you will at best be in Code A and even be in Code B.
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You can bring up excuses for every game I'm sure (and people will) but that is not the record of a guy who is 'easily' Code S material.
Stephano is a really good player, the best outside of Korea but he doesn't show the consistantcey outside of Korea against Koreans to suggest he would make Code S the legitimate way, much less maintain his spots over the course of multiple seasons. That's even ignoring the clear advantage foreigners have in foreign tournaments, when all foreigners play worse in Korea and vice versa.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Another tournament with stephano in it...almost as bad as idra....."ZOMG HE LOST HERE IS TONS OF EXCUSES WHY!!!!" "STEPHANO WON B/C HE IS NUMBER ONE ZERG WORLD DUH!"
Stephano is AMAZING at playing foreigners b/c he has ALL their numbers...no doubt about that....non korean trained players have a hard time against stephano, while Koreans say he is one of the best foreigners....
Stephano has a hard time against korean pressure due to not practicing in korea...would love to see him move to korea and compete..i didnt say "Stephano gonna own this shit Code S champ next season!"
would like to see stephano tone down his arrogance and go to a LAN with koreans in it NOWADAYS where the top of the top tier are there....but....
the threads with idra/stephano will always be the same :\
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
First of all let me just say, that Stephano is easily the best non Korean player right now. He's the most consistant, the most solid across all matchups and in general just clearly the best foreign player.
However, against Koreans he hasn't done that well since ESWC. And when he has beaten Koreans since then it's been against Code B Koreans like Puma.
Another thing is that people on TL/Reddit always say foreigners are Code S/A level but when they go to Korea they lose, always. Just look at Idra, Huk, Morrow, Thorzain, Sase, Naniwa, Sjow, Select, Tod.
All of them have been to Korea with all sorts of people thinking they are good enough for Code S and/or Code A and in most cases they have been raped. At best they do what Sjow did where he beats a poor player in Sjow's best matchup and his opponents worst and then get dropped soon after.
Not one single foreigner has ever won through Code B.
You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
You can say that MKP and MC are the cream of the crop but neither made the Round of 4 in Code S. MKP didn't get out of the second group. Polt who slammed Stephano pretty hard at Assembly is in Code B. Code S (in fact GSL in general) is incredibly fucking difficult now and if you win 50% of your games (which Stephano doesn't, he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans) you will at best be in Code A and even be in Code B.
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You can bring up excuses for every game I'm sure (and people will) but that is not the record of a guy who is 'easily' Code S material.
Stephano is a really good player, the best outside of Korea but he doesn't show the consistantcey outside of Korea against Koreans to suggest he would make Code S the legitimate way, much less maintain his spots over the course of multiple seasons. That's even ignoring the clear advantage foreigners have in foreign tournaments, when all foreigners play worse in Korea and vice versa.
I still think it is worth mentioning that no zerg (beside DRG) is doing well in Korea. Zergs are struggling against top Korean P and especially T right now. It would be surprising if somehow Stephano was able to change that.
On March 05 2012 06:17 Al Bundy wrote: Stephano is the best foreigner, nothing more. There is no need to get angry over this discussion.
Naniwa, Huk, Sase, Thorzain ?
Huge winning record against huk and sase, and naniwa/thorzain are just not winning enough stuff like him
Thorzain I agree with but it's not really fair to compare how much he's winning with players living in Korea. It will always favor a top eu or na player not living in Korea. If you want to argue he's better than Huk and Naniwa fine, but please don't use the amount of tournaments won as a argument.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
First of all let me just say, that Stephano is easily the best non Korean player right now. He's the most consistant, the most solid across all matchups and in general just clearly the best foreign player.
However, against Koreans he hasn't done that well since ESWC. And when he has beaten Koreans since then it's been against Code B Koreans like Puma.
Another thing is that people on TL/Reddit always say foreigners are Code S/A level but when they go to Korea they lose, always. Just look at Idra, Huk, Morrow, Thorzain, Sase, Naniwa, Sjow, Select, Tod.
All of them have been to Korea with all sorts of people thinking they are good enough for Code S and/or Code A and in most cases they have been raped. At best they do what Sjow did where he beats a poor player in Sjow's best matchup and his opponents worst and then get dropped soon after.
Not one single foreigner has ever won through Code B.
You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
You can say that MKP and MC are the cream of the crop but neither made the Round of 4 in Code S. MKP didn't get out of the second group. Polt who slammed Stephano pretty hard at Assembly is in Code B. Code S (in fact GSL in general) is incredibly fucking difficult now and if you win 50% of your games (which Stephano doesn't, he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans) you will at best be in Code A and even be in Code B.
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You can bring up excuses for every game I'm sure (and people will) but that is not the record of a guy who is 'easily' Code S material.
Stephano is a really good player, the best outside of Korea but he doesn't show the consistantcey outside of Korea against Koreans to suggest he would make Code S the legitimate way, much less maintain his spots over the course of multiple seasons. That's even ignoring the clear advantage foreigners have in foreign tournaments, when all foreigners play worse in Korea and vice versa.
Are you ignoring Blizzard Cup results?
They weren't played in 2012.
And they were best of 1's which proved nothing either way. Best of 1's are really dumb.
Like DRG did a real bad all in vs Stephano and lost.
Stephano did a crappy all in vs MC and lost.
That doesn't prove Stephano is better than DRG or worse than MC because they're just really silly best of 1's.
MVP beat Stephano on an extremely Terran favoured map and Hero did something really stupid and completely threw his game vs Stephano away.
There's nothing to be learnt from the Blizzard Cup.
On March 05 2012 06:21 m0ck wrote: I still think it is worth mentioning that no zerg (beside DRG) is doing well in Korea. Zergs are struggling against top Korean P and especially T right now. It would be surprising if somehow Stephano was able to change that.
Except Zerg in the finals of almost every tournament MLG/Assembly/GSL....
On March 05 2012 06:21 m0ck wrote: I still think it is worth mentioning that no zerg (beside DRG) is doing well in Korea. Zergs are struggling against top Korean P and especially T right now. It would be surprising if somehow Stephano was able to change that.
Except Zerg in the finals of almost every tournament MLG/Assembly/GSL....
People i swear....
DRG in gsl/mlg are you just ignoring facts, 3 zergs in RO16 gsl, 1 zerg in RO8 gsl...
On March 05 2012 06:21 m0ck wrote: I still think it is worth mentioning that no zerg (beside DRG) is doing well in Korea. Zergs are struggling against top Korean P and especially T right now. It would be surprising if somehow Stephano was able to change that.
Except Zerg in the finals of almost every tournament MLG/Assembly/GSL....
People i swear....
Read what I'm writing, then take another swing at it.
On March 05 2012 06:17 Al Bundy wrote: Stephano is the best foreigner, nothing more. There is no need to get angry over this discussion.
Naniwa, Huk, Sase, Thorzain ?
Huge winning record against huk and sase, and naniwa/thorzain are just not winning enough stuff like him
Thorzain I agree with but it's not really fair to compare how much he's winning with players living in Korea. It will always favor a top eu or na player not living in Korea.
Yeah, but that's the downside of going to Korea, which at this point is looking like a bad investment for a lot of the players involved.
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
And that is why people need to theorize about whether he could or could not be in codeS, because he's not willing to participate in the GSL at all.
Comparing A with B is a natural thing to everyone that seeks competition, you see A guy doing well, and you compare it to the other B guy, even if they never played each other and they are in different leagues.
If you'd have to judge only based on the games they play, one could not possibly argument that players like Nada, Keen, Curious, Yugioh, Inca, Fin, Bomber and Happy are better players than Stephano, even if, yes, they got to codeS by themselves because they played in codeA, none's saying they deserve it less than Stephano. It's just a natural thing to compare players.
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: You can say that MKP and MC are the cream of the crop but neither made the Round of 4 in Code S. MKP didn't get out of the second group. Polt who slammed Stephano pretty hard at Assembly is in Code B. Code S (in fact GSL in general) is incredibly fucking difficult now and if you win 50% of your games (which Stephano doesn't, he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans) you will at best be in Code A and even be in Code B.
Stop being such an hater.
You're fucking mentioning MC, MKP and Polt.
Do you realize the level of these players?
I'll repeat, once again, since you're arbitrarily avoiding this point;
man the haters flooding another thread, but I really don"t blame you guys, you hate stephano and your favorites foreigners sucks balls, so you have a lot of time to waste
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
And that is why people need to theorize about whether he could or could not be in codeS, because he's not willing to participate in the GSL at all.
Comparing A with B is a natural thing to everyone that seeks competition, you see A guy doing well, and you compare it to the other B guy, even if they never played each other and they are in different leagues.
If you'd have to judge only based on the games they play, one could not possibly argument that players like Nada, Keen, Curious, Yugioh, Inca, Fin, Bomber and Happy are better players than Stephano, even if, yes, they got to codeS by themselves because they played in codeA, none's saying they deserve it less than Stephano. It's just a natural thing to compare players.
Bomber is definitely better than Stephano.
Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are.
The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
That is how hard GSL is.
A lot of people seem to think that beating players like this half the time is good enough, it's not. You need to beat these players all the time because if you don't win all your games in a row you won't make Code S.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them. He has also beaten MMA previously, again you strangely has somehow forgotten to list that in your 'full record against Koreans.' Hmmm.
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
And that is why people need to theorize about whether he could or could not be in codeS, because he's not willing to participate in the GSL at all.
Comparing A with B is a natural thing to everyone that seeks competition, you see A guy doing well, and you compare it to the other B guy, even if they never played each other and they are in different leagues.
If you'd have to judge only based on the games they play, one could not possibly argument that players like Nada, Keen, Curious, Yugioh, Inca, Fin, Bomber and Happy are better players than Stephano, even if, yes, they got to codeS by themselves because they played in codeA, none's saying they deserve it less than Stephano. It's just a natural thing to compare players.
Bomber is definitely better than Stephano.
Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are.
The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
That is how hard GSL is.
A lot of people seem to think that beating players like this half the time is good enough, it's not. You need to beat these players all the time because if you don't win all your games in a row you won't make Code S.
and now you're gonna tell us that DRG is obviously not Code S level since he failed to qualify to Code A, right?
On March 05 2012 06:40 jazzyjazz wrote: =( Ret. That was a pretty bad engagement in the end with the vikings surrounding the broodlords. But upgraded marines are just SO effective against zerg in the lategame T.T having a few more spinecrawlers may help though.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
If you treat 2011 results as meaningless because they are too far away, I treat HSC as meaningless because he was drunk and not trying his best. And overall in 2012 there are not enough games to have a valuable sample. If we put IPL3 out (underdog and on fire) and HSC out (drunk), it's still more or less 50%... If you add online events, he is largely over 50% I think. And I really don't see why we should completely rule them out, especially games played on US server which are widely regarded as more or less balanced. Which doesn't mean I think he can win GSL or even reach top8. Only zerg able to do that atm is DRG, his ZvT is so much better than Stephano atm.
On March 05 2012 06:40 jazzyjazz wrote: =( Ret. That was a pretty bad engagement in the end with the vikings surrounding the broodlords. But upgraded marines are just SO effective against zerg in the lategame T.T having a few more spinecrawlers may help though.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
Real is not a representative of the Korean scene. He might be from Korea but he lives in Germany, plays on a foreign team and has never played in the GSL.
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
If your going to be selective with Stephano's tournament results you might as well remove the Homestory IV games, I don't think anyone believes he took himself remotely seriously that weekend.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: You are Code S/A level when you earn it and keep it like Huk did for a time. You're not Code A or S level by winning online/offline tournaments vs foreigners who are also not Code A. Whether Stephano could hang in Code A or S or not, he needs to prove it by winning three Code A games in a row and then maintaining his spot over a Code S season.
And that is why people need to theorize about whether he could or could not be in codeS, because he's not willing to participate in the GSL at all.
Comparing A with B is a natural thing to everyone that seeks competition, you see A guy doing well, and you compare it to the other B guy, even if they never played each other and they are in different leagues.
If you'd have to judge only based on the games they play, one could not possibly argument that players like Nada, Keen, Curious, Yugioh, Inca, Fin, Bomber and Happy are better players than Stephano, even if, yes, they got to codeS by themselves because they played in codeA, none's saying they deserve it less than Stephano. It's just a natural thing to compare players.
Bomber is definitely better than Stephano.
Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are.
The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
That is how hard GSL is.
A lot of people seem to think that beating players like this half the time is good enough, it's not. You need to beat these players all the time because if you don't win all your games in a row you won't make Code S.
and now you're gonna tell us that DRG is obviously not Code S level since he failed to qualify to Code A, right?
DRG not making Code S was fucking ages ago when barely anyone dropped from Code S and it was stupid hard to get in. Since the format revamp unless you get really bad bracket luck (Polt) or are slumping extremely hard (Bomber) you will get Code S if you're good enough.
That aside the fact that even guys like Polt and Bomber who are considerably better than Stephano have struggled to make Code S is yet more evidence that Stephano would not be able to beat 5 CreatorPrime's in a row to get there.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Bomber is definitely better than Stephano. .
Based on? Based on falling from codeS to codeA with disgustingly bad play? Oh wait, allkilling the weakest korean team in the GSTL?
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name is Fin. And he's overrated.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
Jesus what a diehard...stephano fan...why don't u just relax ur hands and stop raging at the people who aren't gonna read what u said and post whatever they want?
When will people learn not to feed the trolls....should be a TL rule
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
The fact you even entertain the idea that Stephano is better than Bomber is hilarious. Hero is a borderline Code S player who will make Code S if he gets a solid bracket and plays well but isn't good enough to be Code S all the time. Why does Hero making Code S once matter more than the three times he didn't make it since he moved to Liquid?
On March 05 2012 06:40 jazzyjazz wrote: =( Ret. That was a pretty bad engagement in the end with the vikings surrounding the broodlords. But upgraded marines are just SO effective against zerg in the lategame T.T having a few more spinecrawlers may help though.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
Real is not a representative of the Korean scene. He might be from Korea but he lives in Germany, plays on a foreign team and has never played in the GSL.
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
The debate has not run it's course but possibly you're arguments have. You have just selectively ignored those Korean results that weaken your argument. Why ignore the Zenio result this weekend? Why ignore the Real result? Why ignore the Blizzard Cup results? Why ignore the MMA result? All these results are part of the data-set and cannot be swept under the carpet. If you are going to have a complete list of Korean results, then make it a complete list or don't bother.
Aaaaaand 2 - 2, as I said before, relying too much on micro, slight hole in the wall = loss. That's sad, he had the upper hand, better strategy and stronger opening, but no baneling...
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
I agree with your comment but still Stephano is a great player, id put him top 10-15...
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
Real is not a representative of the Korean scene. He might be from Korea but he lives in Germany, plays on a foreign team and has never played in the GSL.
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
The debate has not run it's course but possibly you're arguments have. You have just selectively ignored those Korean results that weaken your argument. Why ignore the Zenio result this weekend? Why ignore the Real result? Why ignore the Blizzard Cup results? Why ignore the MMA result? All these results are part of the data-set and cannot be swept under the carpet. If you are going to have a complete list of Korean results, then make it a complete list or don't bother.
Online tournaments have zero worth for comparing player skill.
One player might have 500ms, he might be playing at 4am from a PC Bang. He might be travelling and playing from another LAN. They are entirely without merit in any serious discussion over player ability.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
Puma says otherwise! Of course you will have to now say Puma is a bad player because otherwise his 3-0 loss weakens your theory.
Oh and you forgot a defeat for TSL_MyWay/Hyun off your 'complete list' too. Strange that.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
I agree with your comment but still Stephano is a great player, id put him top 10-15...
Stephano is definitely still a really good player (the best outside of Korea) but I have major issues with people saying he can make Code S easy.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
Real is not a representative of the Korean scene. He might be from Korea but he lives in Germany, plays on a foreign team and has never played in the GSL.
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
The debate has not run it's course but possibly you're arguments have. You have just selectively ignored those Korean results that weaken your argument. Why ignore the Zenio result this weekend? Why ignore the Real result? Why ignore the Blizzard Cup results? Why ignore the MMA result? All these results are part of the data-set and cannot be swept under the carpet. If you are going to have a complete list of Korean results, then make it a complete list or don't bother.
Online tournaments have zero worth for comparing player skill.
One player might have 500ms, he might be playing at 4am from a PC Bang. He might be travelling and playing from another LAN. They are entirely without merit in any serious discussion over player ability.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
Yeah, MKP at ESWC who knew what was coming, and Puma at Assembly do agree with you Very few korean terrans give him a hard time, not many, maybe 5 ot 6, can do what Polt did at Assembly. 4 1 doesn't reflect how close and tense the game were, 2 or 3 of these games could have been won by Stephano had he better endgame vs Terran. But well, he is no DRG
On topic, I really hate the no-baneling style from Stephano, when he makes it work it looks brillant, but you can't make one SINGLE micro error or you're done. And half of the time, the error comes :s
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
every zergs are struggling hard vs terran atm
this thread keeps getting better :D
SLIVKO SHOW THEM STEPHANO IS MORTAL!
I mean top top korean zergs vs top korean terrans i.e. the best reference
On March 05 2012 06:58 kubiks wrote: what was the opening for the 4rth game ? didn't looked
Can anyone respond to my question, instead of discussing about stephano ? It's a goddamn livethread, not a general forum thread or stephano fanclub !
Hatch first (15 or 16) for Slivko, 14 pool 14 gas or smg like that for Stephano. Stephano went aggressive, took a slight lead, decided he didn't need banelings, and was proven the opposite :D
On March 05 2012 05:50 Crying wrote: Stephano could easily be Code S , if he was training in Korea,that guy is a monster guys.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
every zergs are struggling hard vs terran atm
I don't think it has much to do with the Zerg race. I just think some of the major Zergs are coincidently slumping at once (Nestea, Losira, July).
Only five Zergs have ever really had success with Zerg in Korea (Nestea, Leenock, July, Losira, DRG).
I don't think you can make massive balance suggesstions of the back of one Code S. I just think Nestea isn't what he was (and he has always been weakest vs Terran anyway), Leenock got stuck in the Group of death and July and Losira have been slumping long before this Code S season.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Bomber is definitely better than Stephano. .
Based on? Based on falling from codeS to codeA with disgustingly bad play? Oh wait, an allkilling the weakest korean team in the GSTL?
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
The fact you even entertain the idea that Stephano is better than Bomber is hilarious. Hero is a borderline Code S player who will make Code S if he gets a solid bracket and plays well but isn't good enough to be Code S all the time. Why does Hero making Code S once matter more than the three times he didn't make it since he moved to Liquid?
It seems as though you think Bomber is still a relevant player when discussing top Korean talent. Why?
The reality is that Stephano has hardly practiced vs Terran for the last 2 months. He has been focusing on fighting Protoss. So currently Stephano is not in tip-top condition against Terran and a player on top form like Polt can and should defeat him with clever play.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Bomber is definitely better than Stephano. .
Based on? Based on falling from codeS to codeA with disgustingly bad play? Oh wait, an allkilling the weakest korean team in the GSTL?
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
The fact you even entertain the idea that Stephano is better than Bomber is hilarious. Hero is a borderline Code S player who will make Code S if he gets a solid bracket and plays well but isn't good enough to be Code S all the time. Why does Hero making Code S once matter more than the three times he didn't make it since he moved to Liquid?
It seems as though you think Bomber is still a relevant player when discussing top Korean talent. Why?
Bomber is just doing an MC. He's still a top quality player and will prove it soon enough.
Just stop. Stephano's record vs top end Koreans is quite poor since ESWC.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
2 messages in a row hating on Stephano, I know I shouldn't even answer, but whatever:
He said he can be in codeS, he didn't say he can beat every "top end Korean" he faces.
he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
every zergs are struggling hard vs terran atm
this thread keeps getting better :D
SLIVKO SHOW THEM STEPHANO IS MORTAL!
yeah right come back another time
going 2-3 against a pretty new up and comer....yes...i would say he is mortal <3
grats to stephano...u still need to work on ur ZvZ <3
Yeah, very nice series, Stephano has a slight edge when it comes to conventional ZvZ play, but both held attacks with incredible micro & decisions. ZvZ is nail-biting when it comes down to the single baneling that makes all the difference in the world
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: [quote] he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
every zergs are struggling hard vs terran atm
this thread keeps getting better :D
SLIVKO SHOW THEM STEPHANO IS MORTAL!
yeah right come back another time
going 2-3 against a pretty new up and comer....yes...i would say he is mortal <3
grats to stephano...u still need to work on ur ZvZ <3
slivko is really good and already beats stephano in a bo3 in IEM Kiev qualification tournament if i remember right. nice job stephano won 3 scan invitational.
On March 05 2012 06:08 Seraphone wrote: [quote] he wins under 50% of his games vs Koreans
Proof ?
Stephano's record vs Korean players on LAN who actually competed in Season 1 of GSL 2012. 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 1-4 vs Polt.
You take only LAN event, online events with $$ prizes aren't meaningful ? You disregard online events as well as events in winter 2011, I disregard HSC, it's my right as well as it's yours. See my point ?
Thing is, it's your opinion vs mine, we both have "facts" to back it up, and while it's interesting to discuss it it's however tiring in the end because the same arguments are rehearsed every time. And we will never know, as Stephano will never play in GSL
And it looks like Stephano is (again) going to take another EU tournament
Online results are meaningless. You have no idea how much anyone is lagging or what hour of the night they're played in. It's just worthless for both sides.
Stephano's record vs Koreans in full.
1-4 vs Polt 3-0 vs Puma 0-2 vs MKP 0-2 vs MC 0-2 vs Sound 0-1 vs MVP 0-1 vs MC 1-0 vs DRG 1-0 vs Hero 3-2 vs Tails 2-0 vs MKP 1-2 vs Boxer 0-2 vs TheSTC 4-0 vs Lucky 3-1 vs TheSTC 2-1 vs Inori 2-0 vs Violet 2-0 Boxer 0-2 vs Alive 0-2 vs MC
In terms of series that's 10-10, in terms of games that's 25-24.
Which means overall he has a 50% win rate. It's worth point out that half of his series and game wins were at IPL. If we only use games since IPL his record is 5-8.
If we only use games in 2012 his record is 1-4 in series and 4-10.
That's a 28% win rate vs Korean players (not all of whom were Code S/A) in 2012.
You are just ignoring those results that are in favour of Stephano. You are ignoring the Blizzard Cup and pretending they are meaningless because they show Stephano can live with top level Koreans.
Also you conveniently forgot that Stephano beat Real 2-0 at Assembly. So that means according to your own figures, Stephano has defeated Koreans most of the times he has played against them.
No, he is not. And 2 0 vs Alive was at IPL pool play, so it's valid. Seraphone is maybe not a Stephano fan, but I think the list he gave is valid
This debate has run its course. Stephano's record in 2012 vs Koreans who actually playing in GSL speaks for itself.
And what makes 01 / 01 / 2012 such an amazing date we have to skip all results before it ? If you want to pick a start date, you should pick the one when Stephano decided to become a pro, and that's around july 2011.
2 - 1 , gg Slivko. Would be nice to see a bo war won by Stephano for the next one
I think Stephano did a lot better when Koreans didn't expect his style especially vs Terran. He's still extremely good vs Protoss (although not MC but MC doesn't play like anyone else). He has barely played ZvZ vs Koreans so I can't comment on that.
But a lot of Koreans played Stephano at IPL and ESWC expecting Muta/Ling/Bane and what they got was Ling/Infestor/Ultra with super fast ups. Since Koreans started stealing his build and Terran's went into games vs Stephano knowing he plays like this Stephano has struggled badly. The reason I use 2012 is because it was when Koreans started playing Stephano knowing they were playing Stephano and not a standard Zerg. Once they realised that Stephano has struggled to win at all vs Korean Terran's.
every zergs are struggling hard vs terran atm
this thread keeps getting better :D
SLIVKO SHOW THEM STEPHANO IS MORTAL!
yeah right come back another time
going 2-3 against a pretty new up and comer....yes...i would say he is mortal <3
grats to stephano...u still need to work on ur ZvZ <3
If you look at the build orders, it would have been closer to 1-4. The fact that he managed to put up a good fight even on opening that weren't in his favor shows he's good
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Bomber is definitely better than Stephano. .
Based on? Based on falling from codeS to codeA with disgustingly bad play? Oh wait, an allkilling the weakest korean team in the GSTL?
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
The fact you even entertain the idea that Stephano is better than Bomber is hilarious. Hero is a borderline Code S player who will make Code S if he gets a solid bracket and plays well but isn't good enough to be Code S all the time. Why does Hero making Code S once matter more than the three times he didn't make it since he moved to Liquid?
It seems as though you think Bomber is still a relevant player when discussing top Korean talent. Why?
Bomber is just doing an MC. He's still a top quality player and will prove it soon enough.
I dont understand you logic. Bomber haven´t showned anything for months and last time we saw him he lost to Puma at MLG providence and you still say Bomber are better then Stephano who just beat puma 3-0 at assemply?
Even though Stephano been active and winning tournaments left and right and got 2 place at Assemply one of EU biggest lans.
Just becuase Polt got his number doesnt mean Stephano isnt one the worlds best zerg. Look how bad the big hitting zergs are doing atm. The meta game has shifted and terrans seem to have figured out most of the zergs and thats why they are doing abit bad atm, Losira,Nestea,Leenock,Idra, and the list goes on the only zergs atm doing well its DRG and Stephano. Losira lost 2-0 to grubby at MLG a player Stephano dominates
Ofcourse Stephano will also lose matches but to say he doesnt face koreans is simply not true he faced and beat many of them online and offline. He just dominated Zenio in a ZvZ the other day and thats a Code S zerg. And it wasnt even close. So like Boxer sayd Stephano is a code S zerg for sure and he proves it again and again.
I simply cant understand how you can place a player like Bomber over Stephano when Bomber haven´t showed anything. However when that is sayd ZvT is clearly Stephano´s worst matchup and he needs to work on that.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Bomber is definitely better than Stephano. .
Based on? Based on falling from codeS to codeA with disgustingly bad play? Oh wait, an allkilling the weakest korean team in the GSTL?
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: Curious, ForGG and Happy probably are. .
Again, based on? On the fact that they have "codeS" written next to them? Their results are bad. Their games are unimpressive if not for Happy's TvZ. His name if Fin. And he's overrated.
On March 05 2012 06:38 Seraphone wrote: The thing that you're missing is that you don't make Code S by beating a guy like MVPTails or Hero once.
You make Code S by beating 5 MVP.Tails in a row in Code B and 3 Liquid'Hero's in a row in Code A without losing a single game.
Hero is codeS level and he showed it. Your idea of having to beat "3 Hero" in codeA to get to codeS is out of this world, especially since you have right under your eyes the depressing list of codeA scrubs that tried this season.
You're just extremely delusional on the level of a foreign player and you're extremely exaggerating the level of players who battle on codeA for a spot in codeS.
The fact you even entertain the idea that Stephano is better than Bomber is hilarious. Hero is a borderline Code S player who will make Code S if he gets a solid bracket and plays well but isn't good enough to be Code S all the time. Why does Hero making Code S once matter more than the three times he didn't make it since he moved to Liquid?
It seems as though you think Bomber is still a relevant player when discussing top Korean talent. Why?
Bomber is just doing an MC. He's still a top quality player and will prove it soon enough.
Calling it an MC requires to have results before that that come close to MCs. This looks a lot more like a TOP. (Looking at Korean results you could also add players like San or Anypro but they have no foreign results)
Honestly Bomber has been dropping off slowly ever since July when he was at his best (with a GSL RO8 appearance).
EPT![[image loading]](http://files.team-dignitas.net/upload/scan_invitational_sc2.jpg)
SCAN Invitational tournament![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pXnJx.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cnANM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png)
vs Slivko ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c0/Antiga_Shipyard.jpg/116px-Antiga_Shipyard.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/5/59/ESV_Cloud_Kingdom.jpg/115px-ESV_Cloud_Kingdom.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/ba/Shakuras_Plateau_2.0.jpg/120px-Shakuras_Plateau_2.0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VuUOj.png)
