well MKP needs to advance, a second is of course destined (or because they take top 3 is it a 4th that is destined?)
also, i've always enjoyed rooting for san because he is so clearly not as skilled as others, did a great job taking advantage of KA or a time in GSL though!
And SadZenith, or ManZenith depending on how he has been doing the past months. I heard that he left NsHs, so I'm very curious how he is currently playing.
On October 29 2011 13:28 Fionn wrote: Rematch of the best series in GSL history.
and that would be?
sC vs. San from the Ro8 of GSL March. I prefer it over Nestea/sC.
I remember watching this but it's not too fresh in my memory.
I will forever remember it as one of the first real macro PvTs that I've seen, and certainly one of the longest series I've ever watched in terms of game length (though San won 3-1).
Basically San being a whack-a-mole Protoss and expoing everywhere and abusing Amulet's warp-in storms while sC kept coming in with a constant stream of Marauders resulting in 20 to 30 minute slug-fests with some cute harass from San.
It is one of my favorite SC2 series of all time due to the sheer slug-fest, macro nature of the games combined with San's cute Templar and Warp Prism harass back during a time when most Protoss players were winning with all-ins and timing attacks.
On October 29 2011 13:28 Fionn wrote: Rematch of the best series in GSL history.
and that would be?
sC vs. San from the Ro8 of GSL March. I prefer it over Nestea/sC.
I remember watching this but it's not too fresh in my memory.
I will forever remember it as one of the first real macro PvTs that I've seen, and certainly one of the longest series I've ever watched in terms of game length (though San won 3-1).
Basically San being a whack-a-mole Protoss and expoing everywhere and abusing Amulet's warp-in storms while sC kept coming in with a constant stream of Marauders resulting in 20 to 30 minute slug-fests with some cute harass from San.
We'll never see it again warp in storm was ridiculous and that game showed it lol
This game has turned into a weird one base vs one base situation lol
On October 29 2011 13:28 Fionn wrote: Rematch of the best series in GSL history.
and that would be?
sC vs. San from the Ro8 of GSL March. I prefer it over Nestea/sC.
I remember watching this but it's not too fresh in my memory.
I will forever remember it as one of the first real macro PvTs that I've seen, and certainly one of the longest series I've ever watched in terms of game length (though San won 3-1).
Basically San being a whack-a-mole Protoss and expoing everywhere and abusing Amulet's warp-in storms while sC kept coming in with a constant stream of Marauders resulting in 20 to 30 minute slug-fests with some cute harass from San.
We'll never see it again warp in storm was ridiculous and that game showed it lol
San's FFs not really the best I've ever seen, especially after seeing MC's and Alicia's beastly FFs. San's kinda a bit sloppy and sometimes counter-productive.
sC with some nice kiting to try to delay San's push, but it is not enough and San takes the game.
Return of ManZenith? I hope so, but I also want sC to do well so my heart is torn.
On October 29 2011 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: SAN!!!!!!!!!! why cant you get code A?
Because he sucks at PvP.
Put him in directly in Code S with all the terrans and no tosses, and he probably has a chance to go to the semifinals again.
It's actually funny, IMO the best macro and multitasking tosses (San and Sage) are both quiet bad at PvP. They base their entire gameplay around macro, scouting, and mutitasking, skills which are quiet irrelevant in PvP.
On October 29 2011 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: SAN!!!!!!!!!! why cant you get code A?
Because he sucks at PvP.
Put him in directly in Code S with all the terrans and no tosses, and he probably has a chance to go to the semifinals again.
Man, I hate how all the Protoss players with fresh, entertaining styles are also bad at PvP. San, Sage, and JYP come to mind specifically. I'd kill to get these three into Code S for some fresh play.
On October 29 2011 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: SAN!!!!!!!!!! why cant you get code A?
Because he sucks at PvP.
Put him in directly in Code S with all the terrans and no tosses, and he probably has a chance to go to the semifinals again.
It's actually funny, IMO the best macro and multitasking tosses (San and Sage) are both quiet bad at PvP. They base their entire gameplay around macro, scouting, and mutitasking, skills which are quiet irrelevant in PvP.
Still waiting for San to show these PvZ scrubs how real Warp Prism harass is done.
On October 29 2011 13:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: SAN!!!!!!!!!! why cant you get code A?
Because he sucks at PvP.
Put him in directly in Code S with all the terrans and no tosses, and he probably has a chance to go to the semifinals again.
It's actually funny, IMO the best macro and multitasking tosses (San and Sage) are both quiet bad at PvP. They base their entire gameplay around macro, scouting, and mutitasking, skills which are quiet irrelevant in PvP.
If it's not their preferred style of play they probably don't practice the matchup much at all either.
Damn, that was a hot build by Oz. But with everyone talking about how bad san is at pvp, is it even all that viable? I would love it if we could at least get to standard 2base play in PvP.
On October 29 2011 14:06 Spacekyod wrote: Damn, that was a hot build by Oz. But with everyone talking about how bad san is at pvp, is it even all that viable? I would love it if we could at least get to standard 2base play in PvP.
Dunno why San didn't expand. Robo + blink is the safest tech path to secure an expansion.
On October 29 2011 14:37 red4ce wrote: I hope sC takes this. That way MKP is guaranteed to go through even if he loses his last match and I can go to sleep soundly.
I think mkp needs to beat san to advance otherwise there would be a 3 way tie with them being all 2-1.
On October 29 2011 14:37 red4ce wrote: I hope sC takes this. That way MKP is guaranteed to go through even if he loses his last match and I can go to sleep soundly.
I think mkp needs to beat san to advance otherwise there would be a 3 way tie with them being all 2-1.
On October 29 2011 14:37 red4ce wrote: I hope sC takes this. That way MKP is guaranteed to go through even if he loses his last match and I can go to sleep soundly.
I think mkp needs to beat san to advance otherwise there would be a 3 way tie with them being all 2-1.
No MKP and San would be 2-1 if San wins. If MKP wins it will be a 3 way tie between the other three.
On October 29 2011 14:42 Kiyo. wrote: This seems like a bit late for a 1/1/1. Looks like it might get crushed.
edit: or not. Banshees are pretty good.
Unfortunately not =:: Great idea by oz to engage outside of his base, but i think he made a big mistake with too many stalkers and then using them to target the tanks while immortals targeted marines and scv's.
Even with his unit comp i think oz still could've taken it, just a bad engagement. Run the stalkers in closer to the tanks as they were sieging to negate siege range perhaps?
On October 29 2011 14:42 Kiyo. wrote: This seems like a bit late for a 1/1/1. Looks like it might get crushed.
edit: or not. Banshees are pretty good.
Unfortunately not =:: Great idea by oz to engage outside of his base, but i think he made a big mistake with too many stalkers and then using them to target the tanks while immortals targeted marines and scv's.
Yea, pretty much this. He needed to focus the tanks with immortals better, and focus the banshees with stalkers. Those banshees tore up his army as the fight went on because his stalkers weren't focusing anything.
On October 29 2011 14:37 red4ce wrote: I hope sC takes this. That way MKP is guaranteed to go through even if he loses his last match and I can go to sleep soundly.
I think mkp needs to beat san to advance otherwise there would be a 3 way tie with them being all 2-1.
No MKP and San would be 2-1 if San wins. If MKP wins it will be a 3 way tie between the other three.
Oh you're right, I gave sc an extra win for some reason and thought he was 2-1 as well.
On October 29 2011 14:42 Kiyo. wrote: This seems like a bit late for a 1/1/1. Looks like it might get crushed.
edit: or not. Banshees are pretty good.
Unfortunately not =:: Great idea by oz to engage outside of his base, but i think he made a big mistake with too many stalkers and then using them to target the tanks while immortals targeted marines and scv's.
Actually the immortals were hitting the tanks, as was just shown in the instant replay.
Oz's only mistake really was not focusing the shees with his stalkers, but that's kind of iffy in the face of a ton of marines.
On October 29 2011 14:42 Kiyo. wrote: This seems like a bit late for a 1/1/1. Looks like it might get crushed.
edit: or not. Banshees are pretty good.
Unfortunately not =:: Great idea by oz to engage outside of his base, but i think he made a big mistake with too many stalkers and then using them to target the tanks while immortals targeted marines and scv's.
Actually the immortals were hitting the tanks, as was just shown in the instant replay.
Oz's only mistake really was not focusing the shees with his stalkers, but that's kind of iffy in the face of a ton of marines.
At the end, but not right away. It definitely would have at least helped if the immortals and stalkers had traded positions in the flank.
btw, anyone else think its funny how they are broadcasting in 4:3? :p
On October 29 2011 14:54 Heavenly wrote: I'm kind of halfwatching but was there a reason he didn't immediately focus on the SCV building the CC..?
Maybe because it was a rather fast CC? It may have been a 14cc or 15cc, though I may be mistaken. Pretty greedy play, but MKP likes this kind of stuff.
On October 29 2011 14:42 Kiyo. wrote: This seems like a bit late for a 1/1/1. Looks like it might get crushed.
edit: or not. Banshees are pretty good.
Unfortunately not =:: Great idea by oz to engage outside of his base, but i think he made a big mistake with too many stalkers and then using them to target the tanks while immortals targeted marines and scv's.
Actually the immortals were hitting the tanks, as was just shown in the instant replay.
Oz's only mistake really was not focusing the shees with his stalkers, but that's kind of iffy in the face of a ton of marines.
At the end, but not right away. It definitely would have at least helped if the immortals and stalkers had traded positions in the flank.
btw, anyone else think its funny how they are broadcasting in 4:3? :p
Holy shit I didn't even notice. Something about the stream was bugging me and now I know why lol
I don't see how san could have spread to lessen emp any more than he did. His upgrades were even with mkp right? I thought that engagement happened right after 2/2 hit. How did he lose that?
On October 29 2011 14:54 Heavenly wrote: I'm kind of halfwatching but was there a reason he didn't immediately focus on the SCV building the CC..?
Maybe because it was a rather fast CC? It may have been a 14cc or 15cc, though I may be mistaken. Pretty greedy play, but MKP likes this kind of stuff.
And nice hold from MKP against San's push.
Yeah, so why didn't San target down the SCV to stop the CC from being built when no marines were out?
On October 29 2011 15:03 Liph wrote: I don't see how san could have spread to lessen emp any more than he did. His upgrades were even with mkp right? I thought that engagement happened right after 2/2 hit. How did he lose that?
i'm glad the unit composition that you have to micro beats 1a.
On October 29 2011 15:03 Liph wrote: I don't see how san could have spread to lessen emp any more than he did. His upgrades were even with mkp right? I thought that engagement happened right after 2/2 hit. How did he lose that?
i'm glad the unit composition that you have to micro beats 1a.
On October 29 2011 15:03 Liph wrote: I don't see how san could have spread to lessen emp any more than he did. His upgrades were even with mkp right? I thought that engagement happened right after 2/2 hit. How did he lose that?
If you're gonna stay on chargelot/archon you need better upgrades. If you are even then bio will win.
Either San needs better upgrades or he needs storms or he need colossus. Plus, i think he was too chargelot heavy regardless.
On October 29 2011 14:54 Heavenly wrote: I'm kind of halfwatching but was there a reason he didn't immediately focus on the SCV building the CC..?
Maybe because it was a rather fast CC? It may have been a 14cc or 15cc, though I may be mistaken. Pretty greedy play, but MKP likes this kind of stuff.
And nice hold from MKP against San's push.
Yeah, so why didn't San target down the SCV to stop the CC from being built when no marines were out?
Oh, I thought you meant the in-game observer
I actually didn't watch that part, but maybe San thought there were more Marines out?
is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
On October 29 2011 15:07 Liph wrote: is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
what is the explanation for this?
because that's what has been owning in the current game.
San had no AOE against MarineKing's huge marine army. I don't think any explaination is needed for the amount of DPS 20~30 marines with 2 attack can do to a zealot archon army.
On October 29 2011 15:07 Liph wrote: is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
what is the explanation for this?
It's not like terran wouldn't react differently. If the toss gets colossi instead of archons the terran makes vikings and with good control can snipe some of them before the battle even starts. Having both is nice but it's hard to get enough gas for that until you have four bases or so up.
On October 29 2011 15:09 PikaXchU wrote: San had no AOE against MarineKing's huge marine army. I don't think any explaination is needed for the amount of DPS 20~30 marines with 2 attack can do to a zealot archon army.
Archons are AOE.
Even with the nerf I think that EMP is still going to be extremely strong just because it can be stacked and it's instant damage while storm and Fungal are DOTs that can't be stacked. The radius nerf will help with the early ghost timing attacks, but late games EMP is still going to be very strong because the radius won't matter when EMPs can carpet the whole army many times.
On October 29 2011 15:09 PikaXchU wrote: San had no AOE against MarineKing's huge marine army. I don't think any explaination is needed for the amount of DPS 20~30 marines with 2 attack can do to a zealot archon army.
On October 29 2011 15:07 Liph wrote: is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
what is the explanation for this?
It's not like terran wouldn't react differently. If the toss gets colossi instead of archons the terran makes vikings and with good control can snipe some of them before the battle even starts. Having both is nice but it's hard to get enough gas for that until you have four bases or so up.
colossus > marinekings build (assuming marineking didnt react and went the same unit composition)
marines melt gateway units, but colossus absolutely WRECKS marines, even in the presence of vikings.
On October 29 2011 14:54 Heavenly wrote: I'm kind of halfwatching but was there a reason he didn't immediately focus on the SCV building the CC..?
Maybe because it was a rather fast CC? It may have been a 14cc or 15cc, though I may be mistaken. Pretty greedy play, but MKP likes this kind of stuff.
And nice hold from MKP against San's push.
Yeah, so why didn't San target down the SCV to stop the CC from being built when no marines were out?
Oh, I thought you meant the in-game observer
I actually didn't watch that part, but maybe San thought there were more Marines out?
Nope, it was CC first I thought and I didn't even see an extra SCV near the CC. He just ran his probe around in MKP's base for like 30 seconds then started attacking the SCV right before the CC completed. Just made no sense to me.
San was pretty behind in tech because he decided to do a 4 gate pressure while marineking already had his starport making and stim combat shields near done.
For those of you saying Archons are AoE : San had like 3 Archons and way too many Zealots. Not enough AoE.
Also, San was pretty much stuck on 2 base. He was going double forge, he already had templar tech. He couldn't switch to colossus at any point in that game.
On October 29 2011 15:09 PikaXchU wrote: San had no AOE against MarineKing's huge marine army. I don't think any explaination is needed for the amount of DPS 20~30 marines with 2 attack can do to a zealot archon army.
Archons no longer do AOE? That's news.
If only Archons move as fast as Marines do with stim? Stuff like Colossus and Storm are so much better because of the range and the larger AOE compared to Archons.
Also, I feel like even a warp prism in that San vs MKP game would've been beneficial for the final engagement. Warp in ~2 rounds of zealots behind MKP's army so your archons actually have some time to get big shots off.
On October 29 2011 15:07 Liph wrote: is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
what is the explanation for this?
It's not like terran wouldn't react differently. If the toss gets colossi instead of archons the terran makes vikings and with good control can snipe some of them before the battle even starts. Having both is nice but it's hard to get enough gas for that until you have four bases or so up.
colossus > marinekings build (assuming marineking didnt react and went the same unit composition)
marines melt gateway units, but colossus absolutely WRECKS marines, even in the presence of vikings.
You totally missed the point. I said a good terran would react after scouting.
As a random mid masters player stutter step micro is infinitely easier to pull off then constantly spreading in every place in the map as protoss without a mistake. It's frustrating to see these underdog tosses still get such an amazing concave and attacks surface area and spread properly and still lose badly.
On October 29 2011 15:09 PikaXchU wrote: San had no AOE against MarineKing's huge marine army. I don't think any explaination is needed for the amount of DPS 20~30 marines with 2 attack can do to a zealot archon army.
Archons no longer do AOE? That's news.
If only Archons move as fast as Marines do with stim? Stuff like Colossus and Storm are so much better because of the range and the larger AOE compared to Archons.
It's still silly to say 'no AOE'. If you had said 'not enough AOE' that would have actually made sense.
On October 29 2011 15:07 Liph wrote: is there any explanation for why we've been seeing so much heavy gateway with immortals play from the two protosses vs terran today. I don't understand why we aren't seeing heavier colossi high templar play against terran when we've seen in every match a t has won, theyve had so many marines wrecking face at the end of battles.
what is the explanation for this?
It's not like terran wouldn't react differently. If the toss gets colossi instead of archons the terran makes vikings and with good control can snipe some of them before the battle even starts. Having both is nice but it's hard to get enough gas for that until you have four bases or so up.
colossus > marinekings build (assuming marineking didnt react and went the same unit composition)
marines melt gateway units, but colossus absolutely WRECKS marines, even in the presence of vikings.
You totally missed the point. I said a good terran would react after scouting.
i'm saying reacting and only making vikings wouldn't have been enough to stop a colossus build. was emphasizing how good they are against marines.
On October 29 2011 15:16 Liph wrote: As a random mid masters player stutter step micro is infinitely easier to pull off then constantly spreading in every place in the map as protoss without a mistake. It's frustrating to see these underdog tosses still get such an amazing concave and attacks surface area and spread properly and still lose badly.
Except the surface area meant nothing when they all ended up clumped anyway as they were getting kited... Seriously, how can you expect zealot archon to win with no upgrade advantage against a tech tree that needs no improvement from the terran?
San actually isn't very far behind, he's pretty far ahead since the phoenix > colossi and zealots hard, with double voids now, oz is going to die hard.
What a weird PvP. San going hardcore Stargate tech with tons of Phoenix out and Void Rays on the way. 2 base vs 2 base so far, and San is somehow ahead in food.
I feel like there was a point there where San could've gone into Oz's natural, lifted all the stalkers, focus fired the collosi/remaining ground units, then takenout/lifted again the stalkers and won the battle by simply controlling the size of Oz's army. Right about when he had 11 pheonix or so.
Ugh, seemed like San mismicroed his Void Rays and targeted Stalkers instead of focus-firing the Colossi down. The Colossi would've gone down very quickly to that number of Void Rays.
Is there a translation for what was just said? It seemed like they were astounded by that bunker placement + almost felt like they were astounded by the fact a progamer would do that (the word was thrown around).
[17:55] <@nalho> HE HAS 3 BUNKERS [17:55] <@Kimoleon> didn't reduce that many protoss units [17:55] <@nalho> THE WINNING 3 BUNKERS [17:55] <@Kimoleon> ahhh the truth of 3 bunkers [17:56] <@nalho> IF YOU BUILD 3 BUNKERS YOU WIN [17:56] <@Kimoleon> make 3 bunkers, and win [17:56] <@nalho> IT'S A LEGEND IN STARCRAFT [17:56] <@Kimoleon> legend of bunkers, make bunkers in triangle formation
On October 29 2011 15:57 woobsauce wrote: Is there a translation for what was just said? It seemed like they were astounded by that bunker placement + almost felt like they were astounded by the fact a progamer would do that (the word was thrown around).
long ago in BW, boxer defeated yellow 3-0 to advance to the finals of the OSL (an individual league) by bunker rushing 3 times in a row.
after that, there's the legend that if you build 3 bunkers, you are guaranteed a win, especially more so in the triangular formation lol
I don't know what it is, are the players playing better is it the spectator or the koreans screaming like crazy, but it it's so better than any other SC2 tour o_o
On October 29 2011 16:02 Andr3 wrote: Why do not more people WATCH THIS LOL?
I don't know what it is, are the players playing better is it the spectator or the koreans screaming like crazy, but it it's so better than any other SC2 tour o_o
its because protoss exists in it and its mostly korean -which is why code A > S
On October 29 2011 16:02 Andr3 wrote: Why do not more people WATCH THIS LOL?
I don't know what it is, are the players playing better is it the spectator or the koreans screaming like crazy, but it it's so better than any other SC2 tour o_o
its because protoss exists in it and its mostly korean -which is why code A > S
It's not as great as you might think. These guys make lot of wrong calls, shallow insights, overhyping certain player, and lame jokes. Just from today, one guy said marauders slow archons, phoenix should've lifted colossus, etc.
On October 29 2011 15:57 woobsauce wrote: Is there a translation for what was just said? It seemed like they were astounded by that bunker placement + almost felt like they were astounded by the fact a progamer would do that (the word was thrown around).
long ago in BW, boxer defeated yellow 3-0 to advance to the finals of the OSL (an individual league) by bunker rushing 3 times in a row.
after that, there's the legend that if you build 3 bunkers, you are guaranteed a win, especially more so in the triangular formation lol
Thank you for the heads up Konadora and Caesarion. I wasn't aware. Thank you for the comprehensive and immediate response from both of you! I knew of the 3x bunker rush by boxer, but I had no idea that the mythology of that series would have extended so far :O
The DT/Zealot warp in SC's main was cute, the problem was San's macro remained equal in terms of supply with SC. So much money in the bank when he engaged the terran army.
On October 29 2011 15:57 woobsauce wrote: Is there a translation for what was just said? It seemed like they were astounded by that bunker placement + almost felt like they were astounded by the fact a progamer would do that (the word was thrown around).
long ago in BW, boxer defeated yellow 3-0 to advance to the finals of the OSL (an individual league) by bunker rushing 3 times in a row.
after that, there's the legend that if you build 3 bunkers, you are guaranteed a win, especially more so in the triangular formation lol
Thank you for the heads up Konadora and Caesarion. I wasn't aware. Thank you for the comprehensive and immediate response from both of you! I knew of the 3x bunker rush by boxer, but I had no idea that the mythology of that series would have extended so far :O
On October 29 2011 16:09 Ghoststrikes wrote: The problem with San was that when it was 3 base vs 2, his production remained that of a 2 base toss, and thus he had 2k/1k in the bank...
Then he lost his 3rd in one of the best engagements he could hope for (no EMPs) but still, macro fail= you lose vs a terran like sC
You sure he was still mining from his main? A lot of the time, it's better to keep the same amount of gateways still you usually mine out the main when the 3rd is saturated.
On October 29 2011 16:09 Ghoststrikes wrote: The problem with San was that when it was 3 base vs 2, his production remained that of a 2 base toss, and thus he had 2k/1k in the bank...
Then he lost his 3rd in one of the best engagements he could hope for (no EMPs) but still, macro fail= you lose vs a terran like sC
You sure he was still mining from his main? A lot of the time, it's better to keep the same amount of gateways still you usually mine out the main when the 3rd is saturated.
He probably was, as he took the gold pretty quickly. One way or another, his macro fell way behind for sure. You're not supposed to have 2k/1k in the bank at like 140 supply...
On October 29 2011 16:22 Caesarion wrote: The group allocation is literally retarded.
I just realised that MvP and Happy are in the same group tomorrow and they were in the same group in the Ro32.
And woobsauce, MC might lose to TaeJa but he will still beat MvP and Happy.
I really hope MC rises above the Terrans. =X
But yeah, I don't think he's going to beat Taeja despite Taeja whining about TvP all the time. I don't know why he does that when he's so good at the MU.
On October 29 2011 15:14 Beardedclam wrote: It's funny how Oz doesn't get hype because he is so damn good. People need to stop only hyping up whoever Artosis says is good.
Hyping up whoever Artosis says is good? Artosis never liked MKP, ever since open season 2 day 1
On October 29 2011 15:14 Beardedclam wrote: It's funny how Oz doesn't get hype because he is so damn good. People need to stop only hyping up whoever Artosis says is good.
Hyping up whoever Artosis says is good? Artosis never liked MKP, ever since open season 2 day 1
Not a good example, considering a lot of people were saying MarineKing isn't very good after he dropped to Code A.