What the.. there must be some mistake here, this says Code A finals, but what kind of TvT is playing with Z and P??
I must say, I honestly didn't expect Oz to make it this far. Hope he wins, but Curious is the better player I think, will have to wait for maps to tell I guess.
Maps are up on the English gom site. Order is Crossfire, Bel'Shir Beach, Tal'Darim Altar, Daybreak, Xel'Naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard. Think Oz will take this.
On October 10 2011 06:36 icouldcareless wrote: Maps are up on the English gom site. Order is Crossfire, Bel'Shir Beach, Tal'Darim Altar, Daybreak, Xel'Naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard. Think Oz will take this.
Thanks ! But can you give me the link ? Can't find them by myself TT edit : found it ^^
I'd like Curious to win but wouldn't be mad/sad if Oz won. Pretty much just looking forward to seeing some great games rather than care who's gonna win.
On October 10 2011 06:24 Ghrimnar wrote: PvZ, so its pretty obvious who is likely to win considering recent winrates. Rooting for Oz though.
Why dont you just day curious is better? Why conceal a balance whine with this comment? If the protoss player is better he will win, if the zerg player has an advantage and he wins then he still wins. Its just weird you didn't mention Curious' name in your comment but you mentioned Oz. thus suggesting that regardless of the zerg player protoss would lose? This comment just peeves me a little bit, too many whines that seem to pretend they aren't whines these days.
On October 10 2011 08:33 MrMotionPicture wrote: Go Oz! Is this tonight? Not on the calendar >.<
About 8-9 hours from now I believe?
And, I don't know about you guys, but I'm very happy with this Code A final. Oz has gone from "Meh ok" to really impressing me. Curious I've thought for a while might be more than July jnr. I want both to be in Code S =D
I suggest you take a look at what really matters instead of generalizing and making assumptions on general trends and winrates.
They are basically even when it comes to mapstats and Oz so far has a 100% win rate against zerg....
The Zergs he went through weren't exactly top tier...c'mon, I'm the hugest Oz fan ever but Curious is very heavily favoured here.
OZ FIGHTING!!!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about you being Oz's biggest fan :D.
In all seriousness, back when I started following Oz his PvZ was easily his best match up and tgun says he is still a PvZ beast. I'm hoping this is still true.
Curious us still very good though, IMO, if Oz wins 2 out of the first 3 games, he should win. Either way, will be a very close and hopefully exciting series ^^
On October 10 2011 07:12 SwizzY wrote: Dayum. Oz last vZ is 5-0 O_o Wonder if he'll keep up the streak...
FOR AUIR BABY
He is 100% vZ, even from back when he wasnt as good as he is now, that being said, he has only played a handful of PvZ and his only recent one was v SUPERSTAR. he did beat curious earlier this year, not that it counts for much now though since it was so long ago..
On October 10 2011 10:18 Ahtiven wrote: The stats are not accurate when you more than half of them are against the same exact player. Also, 100% win rate > 80%.
Oz, your entire Aiur brethen counts on you today.
Curious has played 5 different players, Oz has played 5 different players. I see no problem!
If you want, we can ignore the last 5 games of Curious - that gives a 100% winrate in his last 5 ZvP's - just like Oz. =)
(Note that I don't really think stats prove anything. I'm just responding to everyone talking about Oz having an advantage because he's 5-0 against zerg.)
curious feels like the more solid player from what i've seen, so gonna have to cheer for him in this one. Saw him do some amazing stuff in the korean weekly a few months back.
On October 10 2011 10:10 Sarang wrote: Hopefully I'll be able to catch most of these games lives. ^^
Expecting Curious to win, 4-2, maybe 4-3.
Should be good games. =)
- - -
Also, everyone pointing out Oz's recent 5-0 against Zerg should look at Curious's last 10 ZvP's
WIN vs. Creator WIN vs. Choya WIN vs. Inori WIN vs. YongHwa WIN vs. Sage WIN vs. Sage WIN vs. Sage WIN vs. Sage LOSS vs. Sage LOSS vs. Sage
Impressive, you definitely can't ignore the fact that Curious is sick good, I haven't seen many of Curious' games, but that is indeed impressive.
I think it will definately be a very close match, both players seem to be doing particularly well in this match up, so I'm hoping it isn't a blow out either way (except I'll be way too nervous for Oz if it goes to game 7 ^^). Either way, whoever wins will be a deserving winner
On October 10 2011 10:20 Sarang wrote: Curious has played 5 different players, Oz has played 5 different players. I see no problem!
If you want, we can ignore the last 5 games of Curious - that gives a 100% winrate in his last 5 ZvP's - just like Oz. =)
(Note that I don't really think stats prove anything. I'm just responding to everyone talking about Oz having an advantage because he's 5-0 against zerg.)
Usually people take into record for the last 5 games played instead of ignoring the last five.
Anyway, this should be an interesting match. Can't wait!
I suggest you take a look at what really matters instead of generalizing and making assumptions on general trends and winrates.
They are basically even when it comes to mapstats and Oz so far has a 100% win rate against zerg....
If by 100% you mean he is 1-0 where curious is 0-1 against toss...yes. That doesn't mean anything. If you look at ZvP overall right now it's definitely Z favored.
Oz FIGHTING!! Too bad I won't be able to see the games live T.T... close series but Oz taking it imo.
Extra:
On October 10 2011 11:39 Zer atai wrote: Think about this, if Oz won, that meant that Boxer isn't far from code S status. Oz beat Boxer in their preliminary finals
Not really Code A is really though, MC couldn't get even to Ro16 (yes he is on the slump but still MC...), also Oz had an amazing Code A run beating amazing players who could take games out of BoxeR, The Emperor has the skill but many other player do.
On October 10 2011 11:39 Zer atai wrote: Think about this, if Oz won, that meant that Boxer isn't far from code S status. Oz beat Boxer in their preliminary finals
Not really Code A is really though, MC couldn't get even to Ro16 (yes he is on the slump but still MC...), also Oz had an amazing Code A run beating amazing players who could take games out of BoxeR, The Emperor has the skill but many other player do.
Not that I'm complaining, but if Boxer had the skill to beat Oz then he would have the skill to beat the players that Oz beat
On October 10 2011 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: is anyone else starting to feel how monotonous the OPs are to GSL LR threads,too bad I don't have photoshop on my laptop to rectify that...
On October 10 2011 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: is anyone else starting to feel how monotonous the OPs are to GSL LR threads,too bad I don't have photoshop on my laptop to rectify that...
On October 10 2011 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: is anyone else starting to feel how monotonous the OPs are to GSL LR threads,too bad I don't have photoshop on my laptop to rectify that...
People bitch about how much superfluous additions are in the OP, people complain that the OP is too bleak.
On October 10 2011 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: is anyone else starting to feel how monotonous the OPs are to GSL LR threads,too bad I don't have photoshop on my laptop to rectify that...
People bitch about how much superfluous additions are in the OP, people complain that the OP is too bleak.
Normally I'd say Curious would take it but I've bet against Oz in every series this season so far and he keeps winning. Although now that I've said that Oz will probably lose and ensure I can never liquibet correctly with Oz playing.
Should be very close, I think curious is the better player all round. However I think maps favour toss (other than xfire & antiga), others prob disagree. As stated Oz's PvZ is fairly good, thus
hard one to call, curious is good but oz is 5-0 against zerg atm. most of the zerg arnt top level but one of the wins was over curious so i gota go wit oz on this one
Could you add an "Who do you THINK will win?" and a "who do you WANT to win?" poll to the OP? I would like to see the difference between think and want with this one.
Oz will take game one on crossfire if curious does not go muta/ling. If he does its anyone's game . Game 2 and 3 will go to Cruious because of Bel and Tal. On tal we will see a 6 pool. Game 4 and 5 will go to OZ on daybreak with a 2 base timing and xel fortress with air play. If OZ wins first game he will lose on Shipyards if he lost the first game he will take Shipyards. Metal will go to OZ in a sick macro game
Calling it now 4-3 Oz with those games to be played.
I want this finals to not suck so badly, I want to see crazy good games out of both players, clutch baneling bombs and hatch sniping into mass recalls etc etc. I am 98% positive they will not be awesome however. Aside from one game last gsl finals was terrible, the last mlg finals was terrible as were IEM Guangzhou's, several other recent tournaments were also blowouts. GSL bad final curse is spreading guys and it makes me so sad.
I'm really pulling for Curious here, I feel like he's got what it takes to make it and I'm also slightly zerg biased. I still don't want a blowout but I would like to see him play in a commanding fashion.
* random note No team has ever had more than one code A winner as of yet, (Puzzle was on zenex when he won and thus does count as a second Slayers win.) If Curious wins tonight then Startale will be the first team to 2 winners
On October 10 2011 16:30 ladyumbra wrote: I want this finals to not suck so badly, I want to see crazy good games out of both players, clutch baneling bombs and hatch sniping into mass recalls etc etc. I am 98% positive they will not be awesome however. Aside from one game last gsl finals was terrible, the last mlg finals was terrible as were IEM Guangzhou's, several other recent tournaments were also blowouts. GSL bad final curse is spreading guys and it makes me so sad.
I'm really pulling for Curious here, I feel like he's got what it takes to make it and I'm also slightly zerg biased. I still don't want a blowout but I would like to see him play in a commanding fashion.
* random note No team has ever had more than one code A winner as of yet, (Puzzle was on zenex when he won and thus does count as a second Slayers win.) If Curious wins tonight then Startale will be the first team to 2 winners
Code A has yet not to be amazing in all of its time, i really doubt it will now as both of these players aree really good and about even in my opponion
I REALLY want Oz to win, but Curious looks pretty beastly.
Am I right in thinking that Sage gets a chance to get into Code S in the Up/Downs next season? Because if he gets a Zerg then I think we have a good chance of seeing another Protoss in Code S, which will make me happy ^_^
On October 10 2011 16:39 SeaSwift wrote: I REALLY want Oz to win, but Curious looks pretty beastly.
Am I right in thinking that Sage gets a chance to get into Code S in the Up/Downs next season? Because if he gets a Zerg then I think we have a good chance of seeing another Protoss in Code S, which will make me happy ^_^
Yes sage gets to go to the up and down matches. The up/down format is groups though. He'll have to win about three bo1s to guarantee code S. That said, there should be a few zergs in there.
On October 10 2011 16:30 ladyumbra wrote: I want this finals to not suck so badly, I want to see crazy good games out of both players, clutch baneling bombs and hatch sniping into mass recalls etc etc. I am 98% positive they will not be awesome however. Aside from one game last gsl finals was terrible, the last mlg finals was terrible as were IEM Guangzhou's, several other recent tournaments were also blowouts. GSL bad final curse is spreading guys and it makes me so sad.
I'm really pulling for Curious here, I feel like he's got what it takes to make it and I'm also slightly zerg biased. I still don't want a blowout but I would like to see him play in a commanding fashion.
* random note No team has ever had more than one code A winner as of yet, (Puzzle was on zenex when he won and thus does count as a second Slayers win.) If Curious wins tonight then Startale will be the first team to 2 winners
The one-sided GSL finals curse is limited to code S only. I strongly suggest you to watch some Code A and GSTL finals. They are simply the most thrilling SC2 one can experience so far.
I know it doesn't mean much, but here are the past results just so you have an idea how close they were:
Code A Jan: oGsTOP 4 x 3 ZeNEXByun GSTL Feb: IM 5 x 4 ST Code A March: IMLosira 4 x 3 oGsSuperNova GSTL March: Slayers 5 x 4 IM Code A May: STBomber 4 x 2 IMMVP GSTL May: Slayers 5 x 4 MvP Code A July: ZeNEXPuzzle 4 x 2 NSHoSeo_Tassadar Code A Aug: SlayerSGanZI 4 x 3 MarineKingPrime.WE GSTL Season 1: MvP 5 x 3 Prime.WE
The voting on GOM is almost 50:50 for this. Hoping the actual games will be this close. Then again this isn't Code S so its almost guaranteed to be epic finals.
On October 10 2011 16:30 ladyumbra wrote: I want this finals to not suck so badly, I want to see crazy good games out of both players, clutch baneling bombs and hatch sniping into mass recalls etc etc. I am 98% positive they will not be awesome however. Aside from one game last gsl finals was terrible, the last mlg finals was terrible as were IEM Guangzhou's, several other recent tournaments were also blowouts. GSL bad final curse is spreading guys and it makes me so sad.
I'm really pulling for Curious here, I feel like he's got what it takes to make it and I'm also slightly zerg biased. I still don't want a blowout but I would like to see him play in a commanding fashion.
* random note No team has ever had more than one code A winner as of yet, (Puzzle was on zenex when he won and thus does count as a second Slayers win.) If Curious wins tonight then Startale will be the first team to 2 winners
The one-sided GSL finals curse is limited to code S only. I strongly suggest you to watch some Code A and GSTL finals. They are simply the most thrilling SC2 one can experience so far.
I know it doesn't mean much, but here are the past results just so you have an idea how close they were:
Code A Jan: oGsTOP 4 x 3 ZeNEXByun GSTL Feb: IM 5 x 4 ST Code A March: IMLosira 4 x 3 oGsSuperNova GSTL March: Slayers 5 x 4 IM Code A May: STBomber 4 x 2 IMMVP GSTL May: Slayers 5 x 4 MvP Code A July: ZeNEXPuzzle 4 x 2 NSHoSeo_Tassadar Code A Aug: SlayerSGanZI 4 x 3 MarineKingPrime.WE GSTL Season 1: MvP 5 x 3 Prime.WE
Last code A finals of MKP vs. Ganzi was the best finals I've ever seen. Game 7 was seriously one of the most nail biting games I've ever seen.
Lol I knew code A was generally not terrible guys, I'm just worried that it may not stay that way forever. Just a few more minutes til it all goes down ^-^
So I liquidbet voted against Oz every game until the semis, just sure he was going to lose. That was until the semis, where I'm like "Fuck, have to go with Oz now. It'd be stupid not to." And I won out there.
But for the finals I voted Curious, because he's just been so solid. If Oz wins, I will never vote against him in any event for any reason ever.
There I was, in love with the girl of my dreams, and just like that I had the rug pulled out from under my feet and here I am, with no Korean lovers. =(
On October 10 2011 18:03 KimJongChill wrote: Never really heard of OZ before, but must be good to get to code A finals. Go Curious!
Previously known as Twilight before he joined FXO.
Well he left fOu to join FXO and then fOu became FXO. So its kinda like he left and joined his own team right away.
It really is interesting though that he is here in these Code A finals. Generally when I think of Koreans joining foreigner teams I think that that means the korean wants to still play but not practice quite as hard, meaning they will no longer really be seen around GSL. But here Oz is, in the Code A finals somehow. Very unique situation.
On October 10 2011 18:12 NotSorry wrote: damn...thinking even stop to think that it wouldn't be Tastosis, probably should have just stayed asleep...
I don't like Tastosis since everytime MKP play, they seem to jinx him and he ends up losing. Weren't the code A final casted by them but not the previous matches? Same with GSTL, and his 3 other finals. T_T. They are so evil jinxing everyonr
On October 10 2011 18:12 NotSorry wrote: damn...thinking even stop to think that it wouldn't be Tastosis, probably should have just stayed asleep...
I don't like Tastosis since everytime MKP play, they seem to jinx him and he ends up losing. Weren't the code A final casted by them but not the previous matches? Same with GSTL, and his 3 other finals. T_T. They are so evil jinxing everyonr
There are much stronger forces at play making MKP 2nd than the Tastosis
On October 10 2011 18:12 NotSorry wrote: damn...thinking even stop to think that it wouldn't be Tastosis, probably should have just stayed asleep...
I don't like Tastosis since everytime MKP play, they seem to jinx him and he ends up losing. Weren't the code A final casted by them but not the previous matches? Same with GSTL, and his 3 other finals. T_T. They are so evil jinxing everyonr
There are much stronger forces at play making MKP 2nd than the Tastosis
We should do a 10mill poll on the opponents of MKP next time :D
On October 10 2011 18:26 VegaNZ wrote: More live reporting please. What's going on??
Oz went for nexus first, curious went for a roach rush. Oz dint see the rush coming and only had 1 cannon. Curious broke Oz wall and killed the cannons that were making
first against DRG now against curious, why do protosses think its a good idea for a fast expand. not a forge first, but nexus first, on crossfire? far out that is crazy
On October 10 2011 18:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: I like how Curious sent his Overlord in right before the ling got there so the first cannon shots were absorbed by the overlord
yes i was wondering why no one posted about this, guess everyone just busy whining about zerg cheese lol
On October 10 2011 18:27 firehand101 wrote: first against DRG now against curious, why do protosses think its a good idea for a fast expand. not a forge first, but nexus first, on crossfire? far out that is crazy
It's most likely that Oz felt that crossfire pvz would be far too hard and he would need to take a risk early on to be able to win.
On October 10 2011 18:27 firehand101 wrote: first against DRG now against curious, why do protosses think its a good idea for a fast expand. not a forge first, but nexus first, on crossfire? far out that is crazy
How would it make a difference? His nexus first worked. He lost because he didn't scout the roach rush. It wouldn't matter whether he forge first or nexus first, he had to scout the incoming roach or just be extremely defensive and put cannons down beforehand.
On October 10 2011 18:26 NotSorry wrote: It's okay, just a warm up game. Expected to drop this map regardless.
I'm not very confident considering Bel'Shir and TDA are next. I don't have much faith in Oz if he can't pull out a miracle and take the Bel'Shir game.
He needed to take 1 out of the first 3 maps for sure, TDA is probably gonna be his best bet unless he does some kind of proxy or cannon rush on Bel'Shir
I never blame Zergs for doing that attack. Protoss players really need to stop being so stupid with how little they value their early game defense, it is so frustrating to watch loses like this.
Zerg IS going to try to punish your FF, either through a fast 3rd or a rush, just make the extra cannon or two and hey you're even safe from counter-attacks later. Crossfire especially, make extra cannons early on - counter-attack WILL happen later in the game.
On October 10 2011 18:24 MrCon wrote: Oz is not Sangho, when he nexus first he knows how to defend it
LMAO but seriously, he screwed it really hard... sending 2 zealots to scout, really bad idea.
you are meant to send 2~3 zealots to scout though, almost every high level toss does it against zergs nowadays. the bad idea was the FFE itself, terrible opening build on crossfire, never ever works.
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
On October 10 2011 18:27 firehand101 wrote: first against DRG now against curious, why do protosses think its a good idea for a fast expand. not a forge first, but nexus first, on crossfire? far out that is crazy
It's most likely that Oz felt that crossfire pvz would be far too hard and he would need to take a risk early on to be able to win.
I think he just assumed a hatchery first build was gonna come and knew he would be ok if zerg hatched first
On October 10 2011 18:26 NotSorry wrote: It's okay, just a warm up game. Expected to drop this map regardless.
I'm not very confident considering Bel'Shir and TDA are next. I don't have much faith in Oz if he can't pull out a miracle and take the Bel'Shir game.
TDA is pretty toss favored, but belshir is pretty zerg favored. hmm, gonna be an uphill battle for oz.
TDA can be tough either way for both races. It's a very friendly map for Zerg because of its size and the number of expansions, but yeah, dropping the Crossfire game like that and having Bel'Shir next is tough for Oz.
On October 10 2011 18:28 Fig wrote: well you can't scout that at all, so i guess you just have to put up 3 cannons on that map
And the 2 more canons have no downside. Either the zerg will try to do what Curious did and 3 canons is nearly an autowin, or the zerg just plays normally and you have your nexus way before he has his hatchery. 1 canon is beyond greed, it's nearly dumb.
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Protoss should be allowed to just go Nexus first every map right?
Are you a fan of welfare expansions? I'm not. If you want to expand you have to earn it.
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Dude, get out. This isn't the thread for stupid balance whines.
I think on Crossfire it's not a good idea to scout with zealots. You should just get an additional cannon by default and 2 sentries early on. That is just way too much area to cover with a single cannon.
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Protoss should be allowed to just go Nexus first every map right?
Are you a fan of welfare expansions? I'm not. If you want to expand you have to earn it.
I hate this roach ling bullshit that zergs always do. It's boring to play against and it's super boring to watch especially when they already dominate the late game against Protoss.
Im trying to watch it but everytime i log on and click SQ live, it just prompts the sign in form again. I have the cookie enabled, and have tried to refresh and restart the browser. Any other ideas?
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Protoss should be allowed to just go Nexus first every map right?
Are you a fan of welfare expansions? I'm not. If you want to expand you have to earn it.
I hate this roach ling bullshit that zergs always do. It's boring to play against and it's super boring to watch especially when they already dominate the late game against Protoss.
greedy builds have to be punished. perfect scouting and you will be ready in time...
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Dude, get out. This isn't the thread for stupid balance whines.
So many bias Zergs in this thread. Oh I'm zerg, I can do whatever the fuck I want. If anyone does anything, they are super fucking greedy and got punished. Typical double standard.
On October 10 2011 18:33 ayeZuN wrote: Im trying to watch it but everytime i log on and click SQ live, it just prompts the sign in form again. I have the cookie enabled, and have tried to refresh and restart the browser. Any other ideas?
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Protoss should be allowed to just go Nexus first every map right?
Are you a fan of welfare expansions? I'm not. If you want to expand you have to earn it.
I hate this roach ling bullshit that zergs always do. It's boring to play against and it's super boring to watch especially when they already dominate the late game against Protoss.
greedy builds have to be punished. perfect scouting and you will be ready in time...
well it wasnt possible to scout that, so you have to just auto put up those cannons every game to be safe
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Protoss should be allowed to just go Nexus first every map right?
Are you a fan of welfare expansions? I'm not. If you want to expand you have to earn it.
I hate this roach ling bullshit that zergs always do. It's boring to play against and it's super boring to watch especially when they already dominate the late game against Protoss.
If Protoss hate seeing it they should stop going Nexus first. Easy as that. Blame Oz if you hate seeing Roach/Ling all ins, Curious did the counter build to what Oz did. That's all there is to it.
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Dude, get out. This isn't the thread for stupid balance whines.
So many bias Zergs in this thread. Oh I'm zerg, I can do whatever the fuck I want. If anyone does anything, they are super fucking greedy and got punished. Typical double standard.
I'm protoss and rooting for Oz. You're just being an idiot. Please stop
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Dude, get out. This isn't the thread for stupid balance whines.
So many bias Zergs in this thread. Oh I'm zerg, I can do whatever the fuck I want. If anyone does anything, they are super fucking greedy and got punished. Typical double standard.
Sounds like someone lost a lot of ladder games today.
On October 10 2011 18:33 ayeZuN wrote: Im trying to watch it but everytime i log on and click SQ live, it just prompts the sign in form again. I have the cookie enabled, and have tried to refresh and restart the browser. Any other ideas?
Click the green SQ button on the right
Yeah thats the one ive been clicking and it has only been prompting the sign in form.
On October 10 2011 18:33 ayeZuN wrote: Im trying to watch it but everytime i log on and click SQ live, it just prompts the sign in form again. I have the cookie enabled, and have tried to refresh and restart the browser. Any other ideas?
Click the green SQ button on the right
Yeah thats the one ive been clicking and it has only been prompting the sign in form.
Did you try, you know, signing in? Other than that I don't know a solution, sorry
On October 10 2011 18:27 Pajegetc wrote: Yay more Zerg cheese in a matchup they completely dominated and on Zerg favored maps.
please, just stop
Zerg always defending there cheese. It's not like Zerg can go 3 bases(super fucking greedy) and defend any kind of all in or pressure the protoss throw at them.
Dude, get out. This isn't the thread for stupid balance whines.
So many bias Zergs in this thread. Oh I'm zerg, I can do whatever the fuck I want. If anyone does anything, they are super fucking greedy and got punished. Typical double standard.
Sounds like someone lost a lot of ladder games today.
Won most of my ladder games today, Just alot of boring PvZ(Minus the miracle game of Kiwi vs Stephano) content because of that shit.
I know it's their job to hype this, but Oz was not coming back. He lost a lot of sentries which are hard to replace, and energy, which takes time that he does not have. Meanwhile, Curious is on 3 bases with 80 drones.
I just wish they would call it a little more realistically.
Going reactive Phoenix is terrible, he shouldn't have made the switch and just gotten more Stalkers, if you don't already have Phoenix out when Mutas hit you can't do anything.
Anyone else annoyed by the fact that casters doesn't even try to work together ? Both speaking the same play by play and even speaking and interupting the cocaster all the time .... Soooo bad compared to CatsPajamas and DoA not even gona compare to Wheat Day9 or casting archon...
I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Map was always going to be incredibly hard against a good zerg without an allin. There's no good way of dealin with mass muta. Just gotta go kill him before it pops up.
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Sick game. Oz's hold's were kind of ridiculous. I think that game would have gone much better for Oz if his third hadn't been discovered for another minute or so.
I don't know if improving that is possible, but there are way too much base race in sc2 nowadays, I'd really hope the defender advantage was way higher TT
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
storm theoretically
and counterattacks with zealots and or dts if you have them
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
storm theoretically
Yeah, but i feel like defending a third vs that is insanely hard, and blink+storm on 2 bases just isn't going to happen.
the counter attacks seemed really brutal and hard to watch as a protoss player, but the game had so many excellent forcefields that you just can't vote yes
On October 10 2011 18:46 zocktol wrote: So Oz got reactive Pheonix against Mutas? Why not go for Blink and Templar, it just seems so much better to me T_T
Am i wrong here?
maybe his plan was to go for the protoss 1/1/1 kind of? perhaps it worked for him really well in practice, but at a glance I tend to agree that templar would have been 1. better 2. the more natural tech path (twilight already up, why not go templar?)
maybe templar are just way too immobile on bel'shir beach that his phoenix strategy was much better and we weren't able to see that showcased in this game
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Templar tech. Archons, HTs and blink stalkers do quite well.
I think Jinro was the one that said Oz had some of the best PvZ in Korea. I could be wrong about who said it, but whoever it was looks right. Entertaining games. Curious is just really good. Awesome forcefields and micro
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
storm theoretically
zealor archon with some blink stalkers or storms depending which tech you get archons with I'd think would go well
Curious didn't do anything special. Just played ZvP the same way most other Zergs do: power econ then attack everywhere with speedlings and fast roaches.
Man, I'd be pretty depressed if I were Oz. Played so well but at no point did it look like he could actually win the game. Never even got a chance to move out onto the map until the base trade.
I don't think the world's best Protoss could've won that, next map is TDA so he'll lose that too...gonna be a miracle to come back now, Oz needed to win one of these early games to have a chance
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Generally you scout it and 6 gate. That's why the style fell out of fashon.
It was never a style that was really 'beaten', though teching to blink stallkers and storm archons can work if you can defend well enough. It requires a lot more cannons than most Protoss are willing to make, and is pretty even. The six gate that hits before mutas is usually a sure win.
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Huk beat Check.prime on Taldarim going up against pure ling muta. Very good game that was too.
That was a really cool game. Curious is a beast as well. I reckon he is the next big thing in Z, will be up with DRG and Nestea soon I reckon. Very cool performance by OZ some of those forcefields were masterful, I think his problem was his expo choice at top right really hurt him against a more mobile muta ling army. His army control was terrific though.
If Oz had gotten 6 gases up without Curious noticing... he would've crushed Muta/Ling... enough to get Stalkers and H.T/Archons, but because it got scouted he had to spend so much gas on Sentries =(
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Ling/Bling/Muta is actually my favorite ZvP style.
The Scariest thing to face with that composition is Archons with Photon Cannons around to shut down muta harassment.
Archons got their range buff after this style of ZvP fell out of fashion. With their range now they are really good against this in a straight up fight. the only problem is that they're slow so mutas can outmanuever them.
Oz really should have gone to kil lthe main and the tech building at first, not sure if that would have helped a lot but that would have been better (no more mutas, lings, blings)
On October 10 2011 18:45 ONEeldthwe wrote: it was over when he decided to take a far away 3rd... such a bad idea
Not so much when it was made, but when it was scouted, those transferring drones aren't seen and curious stays in the dark and the game is much different
On October 10 2011 18:46 zocktol wrote: So Oz got reactive Pheonix against Mutas? Why not go for Blink and Templar, it just seems so much better to me T_T
Am i wrong here?
i dont think so.. zerg here, whenever protoss gets storm muta ling has to stop or the zerg will lose. atleast in my experience.
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
storm theoretically
Yeah, but i feel like defending a third vs that is insanely hard, and blink+storm on 2 bases just isn't going to happen.
hence why i included "theoretically"
it's fragile as fucking hell, but i haven't played it enough to give a definitive consensus on it
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
storm theoretically
Yeah, but i feel like defending a third vs that is insanely hard, and blink+storm on 2 bases just isn't going to happen.
I would quite like to see more upgrades in that sense. We've seen how devestating a double forge is for Creator, it could make a lot of difference in that muta-ling comp, especially considering how quickly lings attack, and the glaives of mutas.
On October 10 2011 18:44 Teoita wrote: I actually haven't seen a protoss win pvz vs muta/ling in a long while...last time was july vs huk at dreamhack. I wonder exactly how to beat that style...
Generally you scout it and 6 gate. That's why the style fell out of fashon.
It was never a style that was really 'beaten', though teching to blink stallkers and storm archons can work if you can defend well enough. It requires a lot more cannons than most Protoss are willing to make, and is pretty even. The six gate that hits before mutas is usually a sure win.
the point is that you dont go ling => muta. you can produce roach/ling like always and transition into mutas so... 6 gate is not working.
I like the idea of the sneaky 3rd because he was so far behind by allowing that 1ling in his base early, yes it was risky but he had to do something risky or he would have lost much sooner than he did
On October 10 2011 18:46 zocktol wrote: So Oz got reactive Pheonix against Mutas? Why not go for Blink and Templar, it just seems so much better to me T_T
Am i wrong here?
No, I believe that is by far the superior choice. Phoenix are too fragile to be effective against mutas.
Templar doesn't stop Mutas well enough, there really isn't a good option outside Blink Stalkers and even that isn't that great, especially alone. Hero vs. Sleep is a good example I believe.
On October 10 2011 18:46 Ruscour wrote: I don't think the world's best Protoss could've won that, next map is TDA so he'll lose that too...gonna be a miracle to come back now, Oz needed to win one of these early games to have a chance
great play by Curious, credit where credit's due
TDA is not Zerg favored. At the very least not half as much as Bel'Shir Beach
Oz played well but he took a bit of gamble with trying to hide his 3rd and when it was found, Curious made the good move to go mutas to take advantage. Amazing micro by Oz, but not sure if I agree with his decision making and build there.
Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
On October 10 2011 18:46 zocktol wrote: So Oz got reactive Pheonix against Mutas? Why not go for Blink and Templar, it just seems so much better to me T_T
Am i wrong here?
i dont think so.. zerg here, whenever protoss gets storm muta ling has to stop or the zerg will lose. atleast in my experience.
The thing is, it doesn't really matter what Protoss has with Muta harass, you need to be transitioning into something else once they have Storm out so you don't outright die but we don't have good static anti-air like Terran does, Muta harass remains effective all game providing you have the multitasking ability to juke storms
Looks like the zerg will be getting a new addition to their awesome code S lineup. Kind of matches the zerg storyline for genetic perfection, nothing but the best in code S and the weak link (Zenio) may not even survive the up/down xD. He's going to be replaced by curious
Being spread out like that with 3 bases against a muta ling zerg would require not having a huge clump of your army together in one location. You need some static D as well as units spread out to defend mutas.
Muta-ling is not really great in a head on 1v1 clump v. clump battle, so toss should feel comfortable spreading units around to defend bases while macro'ing.
On October 10 2011 18:46 Ruscour wrote: I don't think the world's best Protoss could've won that, next map is TDA so he'll lose that too...gonna be a miracle to come back now, Oz needed to win one of these early games to have a chance
great play by Curious, credit where credit's due
TDA is not Zerg favored. At the very least not half as much as Bel'Shir Beach
I like TDA as a Toss map. Its easier to go FFE, and the third is less vulnerable. Admittedly you can't force field when you're in the middle, but you can hold the fort a lot better.
On October 10 2011 18:46 zocktol wrote: So Oz got reactive Pheonix against Mutas? Why not go for Blink and Templar, it just seems so much better to me T_T
Am i wrong here?
He started the phoenixes before mutas were out, probably because he knew mutas would eventually show up. But he only had 1 stargate.
Storm is always good against this comp but I'm not sure if a slow templar based army would be a good choice on belshir.
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
On October 10 2011 18:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Looks like the zerg will be getting a new addition to their awesome code S lineup. Kind of matches the zerg storyline for genetic perfection, nothing but the best in code S and the weak link (Zenio) may not even survive the up/down xD. He's going to be replaced by curious
Oh wow, never thought of it like that. Code S is really weeding out weaker players for zerg quite effectively, only the best of the best are making it haha.
I feel like going muta against a spread out protoss is a very good way to solidify even a slight edge. Reactively, blink can protect 2 bases, maybe 3(map dependant). Storm + templar is too expensive off of just 2 bases, and 1star phoenix doesn't build up a ball fast enough to deny the ball. While on paper phoenix counter muta's, you need somewhere around 6-7 phoenx to shut down a muta ball. Great micro from Oz though, I'd love to see his play on better maps.
I might borrow this forge opening from Oz if this happens to work really well. EXTREMELY safe from early pools, and with a decent wall, probably safe from other stuff too.
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
Tell me about it. Terminus remade with destructible rocks in the third made me realize that denying easy 3rds is a humongous blow to the Zerg. Map size has little to do about it, unless it's something ridiculous like Steppes of War
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
big maps are good for Zerg, the problem are maps with narrow chokes and maps where you can't flank...
On October 10 2011 18:56 Amui wrote: I might borrow this forge opening from Oz if this happens to work really well. EXTREMELY safe from early pools, and with a decent wall, probably safe from other stuff too.
You should try his nexus first build vZ imo ^^ Don't make just one canon, make 1 then 2 more, and : - either he tries to kill your scouting probe so you're safe - or he scouts you and send lings directly, then you can delay his hatch for a long time with your scouting probe with or without a pylon I have to say that I don't play toss, but I studied a lot of code A protoss games.
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
big maps are good for Zerg, the problem are maps with narrow chokes and maps where you can't flank...
Curious moves his army through the center of the map where Oz has both towers controlled and Moletrap is like "Oz can't see the army of Curious moving through the center of the map, but he instinctively moves back" ...
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
big maps are good for Zerg, the problem are maps with narrow chokes and maps where you can't flank...
On October 10 2011 19:05 NotSorry wrote: hydras wreck gateway units so hard
Especially when at 70 supply differential...
If you look at the army supply, you'll realize that it was about equal, and Oz had better upgrades. Curious had 20+ supply in workers and Roaches are supply inefficient. It was roughly the same army supply but hydras are really cost effective against gateway armies, don't even try to deny that.
Oz has played fairly well not overly disappointed. I mean was he really going to take a third and not see it get crushed? Needed to have made up the mind to expo earlier.
On October 10 2011 19:05 artrea wrote: I just get the feeling that without any warp prism play you can't beat zerg up straight like this.
Motherships seriously!
or............maybe get a third and get colossus stalker deathball? no gimmicky stuff, just turtle and get invincible army!
the ordinary deathball isnt that good anymore, zerg now uses bane drop, mass roaches( no hydras) with corruptor or infestors which is actually pretty good against the conventional deathball of toss
On October 10 2011 19:07 BuddhaMonk wrote: If that observer comes out 5 seconds earlier, all those roaches die with no losses and Oz has a good shot at winning.
When he made his TC he was about to make the robo but then didn't make it. I don't think it was a misclick either :s
On October 10 2011 19:06 JKira wrote: I don't think Toss can beat Zerg if you just stick with gateway units, especially if you lose your sentries like that.
That's why Protoss have Immortals, Templar Tech and Collosus.
Oz was going for a specific push timing way before the Roaches got to a large number and before the Hydralisks even got started.
Curious delayed him to a point where pure Gateway units are just not viable against that unit composition. You need higher tech units to deal with that.
I'd really like Oz to retreat after his initial pressure. He forced mass roaches, he can make 4 immortals and he's sure to win his next push with mass sentries. (even if that doesn't win the game) HAAAAAAA I'm frustrated.
On October 10 2011 19:06 TheBB wrote: Where is my awesome code A finals guarantee?
This was always a big mismatch. Curious has looked unstoppable this GSL, while Oz's PvZ has mostly been unproven(a few wins in GSTL doesn't mean it's good Moletrap).
lol curious stomping oz even harder than stephano stomped lucky. didn't think i'd see a more one sided match for a while, turns out i only had to wait a few hours.
I don't get why more protoss don't use Immortals in the midgame. I think I saw oGsVines use a ton of immortals in his PvZ a while back and just make roaches completely useless.
Only caught the last game, that was the most textbook 2 gate defense I've ever seen. Sucks for Oz and the P fans, but Curious definitely belongs in Code S.
You know...maybe this is a sign. Maybe the horribleness of the Code S finals struck a deal with Code A, for this one season, to exchange how finals go, so the Code S finals are going to be epic as fuck.
Please?
Either way, WP by Curious, it felt like that there was nothing Oz could do at any point in time to beat him.
On October 10 2011 19:12 Orome wrote: Only caught the last game, that was the most textbook 2 gate defense I've ever seen. Sucks for Oz and the P fans, but Curious definitely belongs in Code S.
He does curious played really good, GSL really needs better maps tho if they dont want 0 protoss in code s soon tho. Watching crossfire and belshir and dual sight in the same map pool is just painfull
On October 10 2011 19:12 ObsidianArbiter wrote: Oz why T_T
he didn't think it would work, he was just giving up, there was no way he could've reversed that, too many zerg-favoured maps early
GG, Protoss so very, very fragile, one mistake and the game ends T_T really hoping some big time game design changes come in HotS, that's something balance can't fix, it makes for frustrating games
On October 10 2011 19:12 Gary Oak wrote: You know...maybe this is a sign. Maybe the horribleness of the Code S finals struck a deal with Code A, for this one season, to exchange how finals go, so the Code S finals are going to be epic as fuck.
Please?
Either way, WP by Curious, it felt like that there was nothing Oz could do at any point in time to beat him.
*prays*
And yeah. Curious looked unbreakable the entire game. I think the only time Oz killed a hatchery was when Curious decided to base race.
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
big maps are good for Zerg, the problem are maps with narrow chokes and maps where you can't flank...
That's so 6 months ago dude...
what do you mean? are big maps bad for Zerg now?
Never said that. My point is that being big per se is not a good quality for Zergs.
If you have watched GSTL in the past month or so, Terminus is being used to snipe Zergs since they put destructible debris in the third. It still is the biggest map in the pool, but it's sooooooo unfavorable to Zergs it's not even funny.
On October 10 2011 19:13 Maitolasi wrote: Every time I tune in for a PvZ hoping to learn some new builds all my hopes get crushed
Well we had a very greedy opening, an interesting fast third, a strong timing push that failed because of one big mistake and a cheese all-in of desperation. You can't complain about different builds here. Of course they all failed even with the perfect FFs in game 2, but whatever.
How did this guy get to finals? he's so bad.. let's see
He claimed to show new builds against zerg since protosses have been having a hard time: 1. greedy FFE with 1 cannon on an open natural 2. trying to hide a third base on a spread out map like belshir beach 3. 8-9 gate timing 4. proxy 2 gate
On October 10 2011 19:12 Gary Oak wrote: You know...maybe this is a sign. Maybe the horribleness of the Code S finals struck a deal with Code A, for this one season, to exchange how finals go, so the Code S finals are going to be epic as fuck.
Please?
Either way, WP by Curious, it felt like that there was nothing Oz could do at any point in time to beat him.
*prays*
And yeah. Curious looked unbreakable the entire game. I think the only time Oz killed a hatchery was when Curious decided to base race.
I'm going to be at that BlizzCon final so I'm doubly hoping it'll be good. ;.;
On October 10 2011 19:15 gladsheim wrote: feel bad for whoever woke up for this
Highly recommend the IPL for any one who did wake up for some good games. The finals of the IPL were pretty awesome just watching one player play just gorgeously.
On October 10 2011 18:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Good, now that the zerg favoured map is out of the way we can see who is the better player of the two.
Don't try and take any balance out of this map, because of the huge amounts of counter attacks you can do and the wide open spaces AND the hard to take third its basically much easier for zerg to win vs protoss and it stings to see it still in the GSL mappool.
Makes me wonder if they should just disallow some maps in some match ups I.E. Taldarim or Shakuras and Belshir beach in ZvP.
You say that like Tal Darim is zerg favored...>_>
Large maps=/= Good Zerg Maps. I thought people would've finally realized this with the newer version of Terminus and maps like it.
big maps are good for Zerg, the problem are maps with narrow chokes and maps where you can't flank...
That's so 6 months ago dude...
what do you mean? are big maps bad for Zerg now?
Never said that. My point is that being big per se is not a good quality for Zergs.
If you have watched GSTL in the past month or so, Terminus is being used to snipe Zergs since they put destructible debris in the third. It still is the biggest map in the pool, but it's sooooooo unfavorable to Zergs it's not even funny.
but that is because of the architecture of the map with many small narrow chokes, not because is a big map.
On October 10 2011 19:16 darkcloud8282 wrote: How did this guy get to finals? he's so bad.. let's see
He claimed to show new builds against zerg since protosses have been having a hard time: 1. greedy FFE with 1 cannon on an open natural 2. trying to hide a third base on a spread out map like belshir beach 3. 8-9 gate timing 4. proxy 2 gate
Yea, I learned a lot.
trolling or just childish? Game 2 he was way behind due to the ling in the base seeing everything. He had to take a chance. It failed. If he had stayed on 2 bases, tried any sort of timing attack zerg sees it all. His forcefields made that game way closer then it should have been.
The timing attack in game 2 would have worked most likely if he didn't leave his sentries above the roaches.
On October 10 2011 19:16 darkcloud8282 wrote: How did this guy get to finals? he's so bad.. let's see
He claimed to show new builds against zerg since protosses have been having a hard time: 1. greedy FFE with 1 cannon on an open natural 2. trying to hide a third base on a spread out map like belshir beach 3. 8-9 gate timing 4. proxy 2 gate
Yea, I learned a lot.
Game 1, Curious saw the greedy build and all-inned, Oz just didn't react in time, had he held that off he would have been in a massive lead. Game 2, if the transferring workers weren't spotted, would have been a deadly timing. Game 3, made one mistake and lost all his sentries and the game Game 4, Oz had given up.
1 2 and 3 were closer than they seemed, they just seemed one sided cause Oz made 1 mistake and Curious knew exactly how to take advantage.
6 toss 6 terran 3 zerg in the up and down matches now. maybe they'll luck out and get an even distribution of 2 t 2 p and 1 z per group. in reality, we'll probably get a 4 T group with JYP in it, a bunch of PvP, and then a random assortment group
I found this final was actually pretty good. Curious played so well that it was a pleasure to see, and Oz showed some awesome control in game 2. Nothing to complain about ; just one player playing too perfectly to lose a set, which is great, just as great as Stephano's games were at IPL.
On October 10 2011 19:09 Archerylady wrote: lol curious stomping oz even harder than stephano stomped lucky. didn't think i'd see a more one sided match for a while, turns out i only had to wait a few hours.
Rough day for FXO.
In the end, not bad getting two 2nd places in two big tournaments.
On October 10 2011 19:14 bbQ4Aiur wrote: That is why im stopping playing 1v1 on ladder, i hope professional protoss players can figure out ways to beat zerg/terran
You don't play ladder on your low level play only cause high level players can't beat others races because the game isn't balanced?
You can go all the way to GM by just being better than every terran/zerg you find on NA/EU ladder.
I think you are to harsh with Oz, he had some very good ideas, decisions and control in his games. But he was completly overshadowed by Curious' play it was incredible. I'm excited to see how he does in Code S.
On October 10 2011 19:22 Shellshock1122 wrote: 6 toss 6 terran 3 zerg in the up and down matches now. maybe they'll luck out and get an even distribution of 2 t 2 p and 1 z per group. in reality, we'll probably get a 4 T group with JYP in it, a bunch of PvP, and then a random assortment group
how else were protosses going to get back into code s, only when there is at least 4 toss in 1 group that 1 toss might actually get into code s. I personally don't see many toss getting into code s with the likes of gumiho, keen, taeja, top, zenio and lucky around.
So today's games really confirmed what I have been saying since Code A started - that Curious is a Code S zerg. ^_^ All the Code S zergs are very deserving of their spot in Code S, so it really is something to be apart of that small group of elite.
it's too bad the commentators didn't pick up on it, but you can really see that curious is a protege of july
lots of early pools and backstabs, the master has taught him well
i feel bad for oz man, he played well this tournament but he's going to need his cheese deflectors turned up to the max in order to survive up and down
On October 10 2011 19:55 adiga wrote: Wow Curious such a beast haven't lost even 1 set! I knew he's good but not that good, another monster zerg in code S now.
Well, if he'd lost a set he wouldn't have won, so I'm not sure that's as incredible as you make it out to be...
On October 10 2011 19:43 ControlMonkey wrote: So hopefully this means an awesome code S finals...?
haha, we wish..... but im still wishing ^^
Seeing that Mvp is so dominant in TvT and TvZ, and that NesTea is really dominant in ZvZ and ZvP, the only way to have a non one sided final would be Mvp against a protoss or NesTea against a terran ? Too bad Mvp will probably crush NesTea again and that there is no protoss anymore lawl :x. But really the finals have been one sided because these two players are nearly invincible in these two match-ups. In code A most of the time the players were both code S material with similar skill in the match-up, resulting in close series (Byun & TOP were both good in TvT, LosirA and SuperNova were code S level but struggled a bit in vZ/vT, Bomber & Mvp were both very good at TvT, Tassadar and Puzzle both crushed their way to the final, and MarineKing and GanZi were both code S level and GanZi had good mech play but MKP good marine/tank vs marine/tank). Code S we had Mvp vs MKP 4-0 because Mvp had his number + was better resulting in MKP choking, then if I'm not mistaken it was MC crushing July by being the absolute best protoss and innovative, then NesTea crushing a 0-10 or something PvZ who was InCa...)
On October 10 2011 13:33 red4ce wrote: Hoping for a terrible 4-0 finals so that code A can absorb all the bad mojo from the GSL and code S can have a good finals for once.
On October 10 2011 13:33 red4ce wrote: Hoping for a terrible 4-0 finals so that code A can absorb all the bad mojo from the GSL and code S can have a good finals for once.
On October 10 2011 19:43 ControlMonkey wrote: So hopefully this means an awesome code S finals...?
haha, we wish..... but im still wishing ^^
I have a theory that the Code S finals curse is confined to Korea, and since they are at Blizzcon this year, it will be a 4-3 nail-biter (hopefully between Clide and Nestea ^^)
On October 10 2011 19:55 adiga wrote: Wow Curious such a beast haven't lost even 1 set! I knew he's good but not that good, another monster zerg in code S now.
Well, if he'd lost a set he wouldn't have won, so I'm not sure that's as incredible as you make it out to be...
He probably meant to say 'game', not 'set'. Curious pulled a NesTea this season.
One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
Results kind of expected curious really solid player where as oz only made the final by beating sage in the coinflip that is pvp (even if oz Did look solid in those games and not just lucky). Bottom line better player won. I really wish we could have seen sage vs curious to see how the zvp metagame/balence looks With 2 future top code s players playing a best of 7
On October 10 2011 21:37 Micket wrote: Artosis said Curious sucked. WHAT??? His TLPD is INSANE!
He said it when Curious was constantly being sent out by ST only to lose in really weird fashions. But then again a lot of players seem terrible before they suddenly break out.
On October 10 2011 13:33 red4ce wrote: Hoping for a terrible 4-0 finals so that code A can absorb all the bad mojo from the GSL and code S can have a good finals for once.
Although Oz got stomped 4-0, I'm a fan of him now - his micro and forcefields were so f'ing sick in game 2. I see good things for him once the protoss metagame gets better!
On October 10 2011 21:36 s4life wrote: One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
Yup! 2 tournament wins in a week. That's all the data we need!
On October 10 2011 21:36 s4life wrote: One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
Wait, there are people still arguing that zerg is the weakest race? Lol.
I honestly thought the whole "woe is zerg!" collective mentality died awhile back. Of course you still see it sometimes (mainly from IdrA or NesTea fans), but on the whole I thought most people have shifted to complaining about protoss.
i wonder what is a protoss supposed to do when they play against a zerg with mutas, games always get to a base trade situation and then, of course, because of the mobility of mutas and speedlings, Zerg wins. Pretty one-sided.
Thats why i was hoping Sage could have made it into the finals though it was unlikely given his poor PvP. I feel like Sage's PvZ is on a total different level from other protosses right now.
Damn, can't believe I missed this, although I guess now that I've seen the recommendations I'll go check out Game 2 when I can. Well done Curious, that's a pretty sick TLPD page you've got right now (19 wins in the last 20 games on record, mostly GSTL and Code A)!
IdrA winning IEM, Stephano winning IPL, and then Curious winning GSL Code A in fairly dominant manner against some tough opponents. Even Lucky's run to the IPL final was amazing considering he took out Boxer, Ryung, and MMA on the way.
Congrats to Curious. ST roster starting to look really strong
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like I've seen so many old strats pop-up again recently and people are like wow thats so amazing, but they are things that were figured out and dismantled easily enough before. Not to take anything away from the Curious or other players. This has just been annoying me recently.
yea muta/ling gets rolled by normal stalker/colossi, god forbid protoss opens stargate or get twilight tech.
Dissapointing series. It was obvious one of the players was just nowhere near the same level as the other. First game was just blunders by one player and attempting to do a build that doesn't work on such a vulnerable natural, second set was the player trying to hide an expo, the next 2 games was pretty much him trying to do some sort of all-in, the last set was extremely pathetic to see someone resort to such a weak cheese as proxy.
Of course, everyone will complain that "protoss is doing bad against zerg!" and that ZvP imba, even though one of the players actually tried to proxy 2 gate someone above gold.
Curious is definitely better than most Terrans in Code S. I'd rank him as Top 5 Zerg in the world as well, or maaaaybe Top 6, but that doesn't sound as nice.
I know Oz had practically no chance of coming back 0 - 3 down the series but i still feel its disappointing he just gave away that last game without a fight. Great players have always been defined by their strong mentality and even when things look seemingly impossible for them, these players will always give it all and hope for the best.
On October 11 2011 00:43 Belial88 wrote: yea muta/ling gets rolled by normal stalker/colossi, god forbid protoss opens stargate or get twilight tech.
Dissapointing series. It was obvious one of the players was just nowhere near the same level as the other. First game was just blunders by one player and attempting to do a build that doesn't work on such a vulnerable natural, second set was the player trying to hide an expo, the next 2 games was pretty much him trying to do some sort of all-in, the last set was extremely pathetic to see someone resort to such a weak cheese as proxy.
Of course, everyone will complain that "protoss is doing bad against zerg!" and that ZvP imba, even though one of the players actually tried to proxy 2 gate someone above gold.
Of course, balance discussion has no place in a LR thread, but some posters will still try to bring it in.
Well done Stephano, good games vs oGsTheSTC. The only reason the games vs Inori weren't so good is that he was just too far above him skillwise. And vs Lucky, some excellent play that I didn't really understand (the failed Baneling/ling attack into fast third into crushing the Roaches? WTF?!).
On October 11 2011 00:43 Belial88 wrote: yea muta/ling gets rolled by normal stalker/colossi, god forbid protoss opens stargate or get twilight tech.
Dissapointing series. It was obvious one of the players was just nowhere near the same level as the other. First game was just blunders by one player and attempting to do a build that doesn't work on such a vulnerable natural, second set was the player trying to hide an expo, the next 2 games was pretty much him trying to do some sort of all-in, the last set was extremely pathetic to see someone resort to such a weak cheese as proxy.
Of course, everyone will complain that "protoss is doing bad against zerg!" and that ZvP imba, even though one of the players actually tried to proxy 2 gate someone above gold.
Of course, balance discussion has no place in a LR thread, but some posters will still try to bring it in.
Well done Stephano, good games vs oGsTheSTC. The only reason the games vs Inori weren't so good is that he was just too far above him skillwise. And vs Lucky, some excellent play that I didn't really understand (the failed Baneling/ling attack into fast third into crushing the Roaches? WTF?!).
Wrong thread buddy.
LOL. That's what I get for being snide! Thanks for pointing that out... now to cunningly edit my post so nobody will ever find out ^_^
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
I thought muta ling disappeared because of 6/7/8 gate.
I'm not sure that it was figured out. I always thought whenever a Zerg goes mutas and you miss that timing to kill him, the game is slightly Zerg favored.
I'm surprised no one talks about game 3. Curious played amazing in that game. So many other Zergs would have lost there, he did so many things right and had amazing multitasking and unit movement all over the map.
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like I've seen so many old strats pop-up again recently and people are like wow thats so amazing, but they are things that were figured out and dismantled easily enough before. Not to take anything away from the Curious or other players. This has just been annoying me recently.
Well, I am just up to the 2nd game but the thing is that its not really the same Mutaling from last year. Last year it was mostly 2 hatch Muta where the P could either do what was posted or do a heavy gateway push before Mutas were out.
Now its mostly 3 Hatch muta, Muta numbers will be super high more quickly and after that they can leverage their advantage into a much higher econ.And well tbh even when it was Muta off 2 Hatches P were having huge problems with that. the phoenix build time buff was done mainly so that P can deal with Mutas
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
I thought muta ling disappeared because of 6/7/8 gate.
I'm not sure that it was figured out. I always thought whenever a Zerg goes mutas and you miss that timing to kill him, the game is slightly Zerg favored.
Not really, because zerg's make like 8-15 spine crawlers.
On October 11 2011 00:28 UserErrOr413 wrote: Congrats to Curious. ST roster starting to look really strong
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like I've seen so many old strats pop-up again recently and people are like wow thats so amazing, but they are things that were figured out and dismantled easily enough before. Not to take anything away from the Curious or other players. This has just been annoying me recently.
Well, I am just up to the 2nd game but the thing is that its not really the same Mutaling from last year. Last year it was mostly 2 hatch Muta where the P could either do what was posted or do a heavy gateway push before Mutas were out.
Now its mostly 3 Hatch muta, Muta numbers will be super high more quickly and after that they can leverage their advantage into a much higher econ.And well tbh even when it was Muta off 2 Hatches P were having huge problems with that. the phoenix build time buff was done mainly so that P can deal with Mutas
The whole Take-Super-Fast-Third vs FFE strat is kind of new, so I think the real strat is taking a super fast third, not muta/ling. I think some people have figured out that muta/ling is a really good way to transition from taking a super fast third.
Game 3 was not about Curious' amazing ling/muta usage, but rather the failed hidden base and then Curious getting in huge ling runbys. The former is a weak coinflip, the latter was a blunder not fit for a code A champion, which is exactly why he lost. If that third was just his normal third instead, or he hadn't let those lings run into his base, he would've done much better.
Curious was using mostly roach play in that game, and I think he threw up the spire actually as a way to be ready against Colossi. But then he found the hidden third, so he sacced his roaches to kill it. He didn't kill it, but he knew Oz was spread extremely thin, so that mutas would work excellently against someone sticking to gateway units, and he also knew with mutas he could just FF the nexus down.
Not really, because zerg's make like 8-15 spine crawlers.
You can't afford that with muta/ling, and what good is 15 spines if they don't guard your third? Muta/ling just gets owned by mass gateway timings like 6-7-8 gates that were popular, they get owned by the increased popularity of stargate, they get owned by normal play, and they get owned by archon play. What they do good with, is maps that are very large, maps where the third is 'inside' your base like Crevasse or Terminus, maps where the third is extremely far like Crossfire (or BelShir beach when you make your 4th your third) where you can force the enemy to have to run back and forth to protect their base, and when your opponent has an extremely low stalker count and you want to exploit it.
On October 11 2011 02:10 1800STFU wrote: I am going to laugh when no Protosses get out of the up/downs and we're left with Huk and Killer as the only 2 Tosses left.
na surely we will have a few pvp's only way in hell we are going to getmore then just huK and Killer!!!
code a finals were usually fuckin good TOP vs Byun was amazing Supernova vs Losira was also frekin amazin MVP vs Bomber was another amazing code a finals but all the good people in code a ranked up to code s so...
On October 11 2011 00:28 UserErrOr413 wrote: Congrats to Curious. ST roster starting to look really strong
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like I've seen so many old strats pop-up again recently and people are like wow thats so amazing, but they are things that were figured out and dismantled easily enough before. Not to take anything away from the Curious or other players. This has just been annoying me recently.
Well, I am just up to the 2nd game but the thing is that its not really the same Mutaling from last year. Last year it was mostly 2 hatch Muta where the P could either do what was posted or do a heavy gateway push before Mutas were out.
Now its mostly 3 Hatch muta, Muta numbers will be super high more quickly and after that they can leverage their advantage into a much higher econ.And well tbh even when it was Muta off 2 Hatches P were having huge problems with that. the phoenix build time buff was done mainly so that P can deal with Mutas
The whole Take-Super-Fast-Third vs FFE strat is kind of new, so I think the real strat is taking a super fast third, not muta/ling. I think some people have figured out that muta/ling is a really good way to transition from taking a super fast third.
Game 3 was not about Curious' amazing ling/muta usage, but rather the failed hidden base and then Curious getting in huge ling runbys. The former is a weak coinflip, the latter was a blunder not fit for a code A champion, which is exactly why he lost. If that third was just his normal third instead, or he hadn't let those lings run into his base, he would've done much better.
Curious was using mostly roach play in that game, and I think he threw up the spire actually as a way to be ready against Colossi. But then he found the hidden third, so he sacced his roaches to kill it. He didn't kill it, but he knew Oz was spread extremely thin, so that mutas would work excellently against someone sticking to gateway units, and he also knew with mutas he could just FF the nexus down.
Not really, because zerg's make like 8-15 spine crawlers.
You can't afford that with muta/ling, and what good is 15 spines if they don't guard your third? Muta/ling just gets owned by mass gateway timings like 6-7-8 gates that were popular, they get owned by the increased popularity of stargate, they get owned by normal play, and they get owned by archon play. What they do good with, is maps that are very large, maps where the third is 'inside' your base like Crevasse or Terminus, maps where the third is extremely far like Crossfire (or BelShir beach when you make your 4th your third) where you can force the enemy to have to run back and forth to protect their base, and when your opponent has an extremely low stalker count and you want to exploit it.
Yeah thats what i was saying. Old MutaBling was 2 base MutaBling, then 3rd base. Right now Zergs can take a super early 3rd and saturate it(even against gateway openings) and then transition into Muta. What changed was indeed the early 3rd.
On October 10 2011 21:36 s4life wrote: One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
its been like that for a while man. Zergs are hardly a weaker race now. Hell even 2with 20 T in Code S 70% of the Zergs made it into RO16. And this season TvZ in GSL is at 52%. Its only Destiny and idra complaining about Zerg being weak.
Hopefully P/Blizzard can figure out stuff more because P is overall doing badly atm.
People complaining that Oz lost to a beast like curious? Sad Zealot my ass curious just happened to be the best player in code A this season, he proved that thoroughly. Its not like every Z won all their matches except zvz. Plus, just because the few zergs in code S actually get far is because they are really good obviously, the reason there aren't more zergs in code S is because its freaking hard to be that good. Maybe when protoss figure out PvT they can start winning in code S because like it has been said pretty much 2/3 of players in code S are terran.
On October 11 2011 04:59 Goshdarnit wrote: People complaining that Oz lost to a beast like curious? Sad Zealot my ass curious just happened to be the best player in code A this season, he proved that thoroughly. Its not like every Z won all their matches except zvz. Plus, just because the few zergs in code S actually get far is because they are really good obviously, the reason there aren't more zergs in code S is because its freaking hard to be that good. Maybe when protoss figure out PvT they can start winning in code S because like it has been said pretty much 2/3 of players in code S are terran.
Yeah Curious was definitively the better player here. But thats what you get when TL endorsed balance whine happens.I kinda expected Oz to continue his vZ winstreak but oh well anyone who saw the games knows that Oz lost because of how he played, not his race
It's sad that the only reason game 2 is reccomended is because Oz did some insane micro. Really wish that PvZ was a bit more entertaining >< That's a problem for Hots though, we need more options for Z and P.
On October 11 2011 04:59 Goshdarnit wrote: People complaining that Oz lost to a beast like curious? Sad Zealot my ass curious just happened to be the best player in code A this season, he proved that thoroughly. Its not like every Z won all their matches except zvz. Plus, just because the few zergs in code S actually get far is because they are really good obviously, the reason there aren't more zergs in code S is because its freaking hard to be that good. Maybe when protoss figure out PvT they can start winning in code S because like it has been said pretty much 2/3 of players in code S are terran.
Yeah Curious was definitively the better player here. But thats what you get when TL endorsed balance whine happens.I kinda expected Oz to continue his vZ winstreak but oh well anyone who saw the games knows that Oz lost because of how he played, not his race
The maps were a pretty big factor too. Maps have the power to skew game balance just as much as race design. If player makes a decision that looks strange or too risky, it's hard to know whether it's some concession to the map that isn't obvious without hours of practice on that map, or whether it's just a bad decision. vOv
On October 10 2011 21:36 s4life wrote: One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
its been like that for a while man. Zergs are hardly a weaker race now. Hell even 2with 20 T in Code S 70% of the Zergs made it into RO16. And this season TvZ in GSL is at 52%. Its only Destiny and idra complaining about Zerg being weak.
Hopefully P/Blizzard can figure out stuff more because P is overall doing badly atm.
you do know that 52% is good, and shows the matchup is in a pretty good spot?
Can anyone give me a summery of all 4 games though?
On October 10 2011 21:36 s4life wrote: One sided match.. but seriously, another zerg winning and important tournament in the last week.. it's getting really hard to argue about zerg being the 'weakest' race...
its been like that for a while man. Zergs are hardly a weaker race now. Hell even 2with 20 T in Code S 70% of the Zergs made it into RO16. And this season TvZ in GSL is at 52%. Its only Destiny and idra complaining about Zerg being weak.
Hopefully P/Blizzard can figure out stuff more because P is overall doing badly atm.
you do know that 52% is good, and shows the matchup is in a pretty good spot?
Can anyone give me a summery of all 4 games though?
g1 = Oz goes Nex first ffe, skimps on defence, and Curious barrels through with a roach/ling all in that he borrowed from July (surprise).
[highlight] Curious tanking cannon shots with an overlord to get right up to the wall unscathed.
g2 = best game of the series. OZ with another FFE variation, Curious takes a pretty fast third in response. Both set up on pretty standard unit comps till Curious scouts Oz trying to take a slightly hidden third, he pressures with roaches (but fails to kill the nexus) and follows with a big muta switch knowing that Oz is going to be really stretched thin defensively. Curious kills the third and after some jockeying around the mid + continuous runbys & muta harass he forces a base trade that Oz can't win. Curious eventually brings back his mutas with all the Nexus dead and with some timely speedbanes even cleans up Oz's attacking force.
[highlight] Consistently brilliant forcefields from Oz throughout the game, most notably though to deny a roach bust at his nat wall when caught a little out of position.
g3 = Oz trying a 6gate but getting denied pretty hard, transitioning into an even bigger 2 base blink all in but getting denied even harder by a monster roach/hydra force.
[highlight] Curious multitasking and awareness, sniping out probes and pylons and delaying Oz's initial 6gate push for long enough that he had time to get plenty of units out.
g4 = Oz trying a proxy 2gate on Daybreak. Curious scouts it at the last second, reacts well, and denies it 100%
[highlight] Some nice drone micro and reactions from Curious I guess...
Game 1: Roach/ling all-in and Oz didn't build enough cannons.
Game 2: Oz committed the unrecoverable error of letting a single zergling into his base to scout everything he was doing and so was forced to take a distant "hidden" third. Curious found the third and transitioned from roaches into mutas to exploit how Oz had to spread out to defend everything. Oz stretched the game out with really insane micro but he was drawing dead regardless of skill after the zergling scout with no real way to recover. Worth a watch for Oz's great micro here.
Game 3: Boring two-base all-in by Oz that got defeated in the usual way. Looked like a ladder game.
Game 4: Oz, exhausted and defeated and with full knowledge that Curious already easily beat his best efforts, does a 2-gate proxy so that he could get off stage as quickly as possible. It was scouted and beaten almost immediately with no fight. Oz: what a jobber.
On October 11 2011 00:28 UserErrOr413 wrote: Congrats to Curious. ST roster starting to look really strong
On October 10 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: Actually, muta ling was figured out about october last year.
its stay on 2 base, get HT n blink stalkers, take 3rd, watch out for tech switch...
It disappeared for a while coz it WAS figured out, and infestors got really popular, now zerg are using more strats again.
Also, resurgence of muta in ZvZ as well...
Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like I've seen so many old strats pop-up again recently and people are like wow thats so amazing, but they are things that were figured out and dismantled easily enough before. Not to take anything away from the Curious or other players. This has just been annoying me recently.
Well, I am just up to the 2nd game but the thing is that its not really the same Mutaling from last year. Last year it was mostly 2 hatch Muta where the P could either do what was posted or do a heavy gateway push before Mutas were out.
Now its mostly 3 Hatch muta, Muta numbers will be super high more quickly and after that they can leverage their advantage into a much higher econ.And well tbh even when it was Muta off 2 Hatches P were having huge problems with that. the phoenix build time buff was done mainly so that P can deal with Mutas
The whole Take-Super-Fast-Third vs FFE strat is kind of new, so I think the real strat is taking a super fast third, not muta/ling. I think some people have figured out that muta/ling is a really good way to transition from taking a super fast third.
Game 3 was not about Curious' amazing ling/muta usage, but rather the failed hidden base and then Curious getting in huge ling runbys. The former is a weak coinflip, the latter was a blunder not fit for a code A champion, which is exactly why he lost. If that third was just his normal third instead, or he hadn't let those lings run into his base, he would've done much better.
Curious was using mostly roach play in that game, and I think he threw up the spire actually as a way to be ready against Colossi. But then he found the hidden third, so he sacced his roaches to kill it. He didn't kill it, but he knew Oz was spread extremely thin, so that mutas would work excellently against someone sticking to gateway units, and he also knew with mutas he could just FF the nexus down.
Not really, because zerg's make like 8-15 spine crawlers.
You can't afford that with muta/ling, and what good is 15 spines if they don't guard your third? Muta/ling just gets owned by mass gateway timings like 6-7-8 gates that were popular, they get owned by the increased popularity of stargate, they get owned by normal play, and they get owned by archon play. What they do good with, is maps that are very large, maps where the third is 'inside' your base like Crevasse or Terminus, maps where the third is extremely far like Crossfire (or BelShir beach when you make your 4th your third) where you can force the enemy to have to run back and forth to protect their base, and when your opponent has an extremely low stalker count and you want to exploit it.
Yeah thats what i was saying. Old MutaBling was 2 base MutaBling, then 3rd base. Right now Zergs can take a super early 3rd and saturate it(even against gateway openings) and then transition into Muta. What changed was indeed the early 3rd.
Good analysis and points. I guess I'm thinking of people seeing 3 base muta and going: omg mutas in ZvP this is so revolutionary and unheard of, why don't other pros do that. Things like that. Not that it isn't different, timings and builds are much more refined and thought out by the pros these days, but thats not really what I was thinking about. I actually think its really cool pros are going back to old theory and trying different refined timings and builds. It just bothers me when people show up and go; Why the heck don't all terrans do Maruader Hellion pushes or Zergs go Muta now in ZvP?? This is so ingenious and never been done before. Maybe I'm just being a bit to cranky though.
Geez it was painful to watch game 3 where Oz losing his 7 gate timing because he locked himself out of his base without a probe to build forward pylons. Then he transitioned into 9 gate.. Sigh.
It's interesting to me how few Koreans play the very slow macro-style deathball protoss. I've seen so many ZvPs with FFE into 6-gate, blink timing, stargate, etc, but very few that move out (to force units), move back and take a third, tech to collosus and then templar or voidrays and then keep taking bases. Zergs have learned to deal with 2-base timing pushes pretty damn well. Infestors got nerfed to balance out ZvP, but the Koreans aren't taking advantage of it by sitting back and building six collosi.
Again, not surprised. What surprised me was that a protoss even got to the finals - then again it was a PVP semi, so a little luck lol
Man this is a sad, sad, time for protoss. With IPL being a ZvZ - it was looking pretty grim other than code A - and we couldn't quite secure a win here. I highly doubt MLG will change my mind on this one.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/GSL/genericheader.jpg)
2011 Global StarCraft II League October ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/563.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/vs.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/629.jpg)
Curious <Crossfire SE> 
Oz
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