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On July 03 2011 10:16 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:14 lunchforthesky wrote:
I want to see someone try this blink stalkers stuff versus Nestea or Losira. I'm Zergs will then get answers on how to handle it. they already have, it's called a shitton of lings that you use to catch the blink stalkers. dunno why you would make lots of roaches against blink stalkers. blink stalkers are almost designed to counter them
The problem with that is if you're not prepared for blink abuse, you won't have enough larvae to support lings production against stalker production. And there's always some spot ,to abuse lings by getting down or up a cliff. 
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On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit
Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there.
Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army).
Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches.
Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes).
The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)?
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On July 03 2011 10:14 lunchforthesky wrote:
I want to see someone try this blink stalkers stuff versus Nestea or Losira. I'm Zergs will then get answers on how to handle it.
Losira deals with it pretty easily  He keeps the composition of ling/roach/hydra and later blings. and MASSES them. Like really really much.
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Pretty poor engage from Yonghwa despite being in a pretty good position to engage such a push.
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On July 03 2011 10:24 Miragee wrote:
Pretty poor engage from Yonghwa despite being in a pretty good position to engage such a push.
I don't get why some toss players don't bother to attack marauders/tanks with immortals
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On July 03 2011 10:20 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there. Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army). Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches. Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes). The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)?
properly using lings isnt easy, you have to constantly threaten the counter / the surround. after you delay their blink timing enough you can get a bunch of hydras out for additional DPS.
i don't think you realize how good +2 lings are against stalkers, go into the unit tester and try to blink micro against 8 roaches + equal army supply of lings to blink stalkers.
zealots you deal with by making more roaches and simply not engaging them. lings are fast, run behind the zealots.
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On July 03 2011 10:20 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there. Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army). Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches. Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes). The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)?
I think you'd be surprised at the ability of truly great players to make 'overpowered' tactics look like trash.
Look at:
MC holding about 20 roach/ling all in's in a row using Stargate, DT's, clutch forcefields.
Nestea making the Protoss deathball look completely dated vs Anypro/Inca at the height of Protoss "Imbalance".
MMA breaking Zerg late game with mass drop play sniping all your tech/hatcheries.
Bomber making basically all Protoss players look like total jobbers by abusing their immobility and using a lot of Ghosts.
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Ah just now checking in. So happy to see Nerchio did terribly :D Equally happy to see MKP excelling :D
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Can't see what xiaOt is selecting on the FXO stream.
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On air/coming up: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/fr.png) French stream:  CCM.Xigua 1 <Xel'Naga Caverns> 1 MYMSaSe 
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On July 03 2011 10:28 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:20 Sixes wrote:On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there. Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army). Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches. Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes). The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)? Nestea making the Protoss deathball look completely dated vs Anypro/Inca at the height of Protoss "Imbalance".
which game was that?
i only remember him going for lulzy baneling corrupter after being worlds ahead of anypro on terminus ... but that's not very impressive, i have yet to see NesTea crack a strong Protoss like LosirA did MC.
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Khaldor crashed. Does anyone know what happened to the game? Gumiho vs Yonghwa?
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noooooooooooooooooo Ganzi...
I think zvp is extremely balanced. slightly zerg favored coz everytime I watch korean ladder stream top korean zergs own top protoss ezpzlmnsqz
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xiaOt has been doing 2 base colossi + phoenix. Not a fan of that at all.
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TheStC is going to come back through the lower bracket and pwn marineking so he can claim his silver :D
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On July 03 2011 10:34 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:28 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 03 2011 10:20 Sixes wrote:On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there. Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army). Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches. Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes). The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)? Nestea making the Protoss deathball look completely dated vs Anypro/Inca at the height of Protoss "Imbalance". which game was that? i only remember him going for lulzy baneling corrupter after being worlds ahead of anypro on terminus ... but that's not very impressive, i have yet to see NesTea crack a strong Protoss like LosirA did MC.
Well, somehow all the Protosses spam "cheesy builds" whenever they face Nestea, so Nestea just needed to fend that attack off rather than to play a long macro game
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On July 03 2011 10:35 AndAgain wrote:
xiaOt has been doing 2 base colossi + phoenix. Not a fan of that at all.
yeah it's pretty 2010 and doesn't really work if the T is aware of it
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On July 03 2011 10:34 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 10:28 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 03 2011 10:20 Sixes wrote:On July 03 2011 10:07 ChickenLips wrote:On July 03 2011 10:04 Sixes wrote:
Can't blame Nerchio ... 4 bases to 2, huge supply lead and the proper unit mix to deal with blink stalkers.
But because there are 5 zealots and 2 immortals the composition falls apart completely and he has absolutely no solution.
Actually been having the same problem myself and seen a lot of pros have it, what is the solution to properly executed blink stalker play ? Ling/roach or ling/hydra with infestors do alright against pure stalker but as soon as a couple robo units and either zealots or sentries come out that all gets annihilated.
Not a balance whine, I am just genuinely confused as to the solution to that problem and a lot of pros seem to be too. you get an evo at 37 supply with +2 melee ASAP. make about 10 roaches and then only lings off 2 gas and 3 hatch. +2 lings rape stalkers with or without blink. you need good injects, but thats about it, if you can scout the council, you're in good shape as long as you don't make roaches, they just suck, lots of HP and decent DPS but can't diminish the blink stalker ball for shit Fair enough, lings really are good at that but in my experience (both playing and watching) the toss player can get 1 round of zealots (say 6-8 of them) with his +1 or +2 weapons (which he gets as fast if not faster than zerg can get them, let alone that and armor) and just rips up any number of lings. Let's not even mention a couple of archons if the game gets there. Don't get me wrong I do not always lose to this but when I win it always seems to me like the opponent did something supremely stupid (bad aggressive blinks or failed blink retreats losing half the army). Another issue with lings is the fact that they are ineffective in any kind of choke and blink stalkers are mobile enough to get into a choke (or have sentries create one/make sure the lings can't run). On top of that lings are so larvae intensive that they scale pretty poorly if the game drags on a little (which the toss can force by just being more defensive as lings can't get up a choke) and when there are 30+ stalkers getting the equivalent cost of lings (which would destroy them) would require a huge investment in macro hatches. Just seems odd to me. Blink stalkers are so easy to get to, have very few counters (all of which change depending on just a few of their support units) and are mobile enough to force engagements (usually in a favorable position as they can bypass static defenses and blink to chokes). The ling idea also requires a heavy commitment (upgrades and macro hatches) well before any kind of blink is spotted. What happens if they go for some kind of zealot/archon heavy play (which is getting more and more popular)? Nestea making the Protoss deathball look completely dated vs Anypro/Inca at the height of Protoss "Imbalance". which game was that? i only remember him going for lulzy baneling corrupter after being worlds ahead of anypro on terminus ... but that's not very impressive, i have yet to see NesTea crack a strong Protoss like LosirA did MC.
Anypro is really good in PvZ. He did it on Taldarim Altar I think game 4, might have been game 2. A big aspect of it was he never let Inca/Anypro get the deathball in most games, he just played super aggressive and instead of turtling and expecting to win he put them on the back foot.
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TheStC takes game 1 vs. DDE
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EPT
