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Stupid offtopic discussions end NOW (Page 106). Bans and warnings will be issues afterwards. |
On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too.
HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability.
The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case.
Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone?
Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though.
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Why is there so much discussion over freaking baneling bombs??? The game was WELL over before the *single* baneling bomb in the game hit.
Not to mention, as the guy above said, I don't believe that Nestea had even used burrow once yet. It had basically just finished researching. Bomber got hit by it once, and suddenly it's what all the T are using to make their claims of a balanced map?
The win ratio of T/P doesn't have to be 100% for a map to be imbalanced, people.....
On June 01 2011 23:11 dc302 wrote:
I know its old but thats how FD won a lot of his games in GSL1 iirc xD
Yea that's why I said when was the last time lol, not that it's never happened. Ultralisks were so big back in S1 or so. They have completely disappeared in high level play for the last 4-5 months though.
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On June 01 2011 23:15 Curu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 fant0m wrote:On June 01 2011 23:03 Fyzar wrote:
I agree as well, especially the second game wasn't that exciting.
I voted No on the poll ;> it's cool to see NesTea, but I didn't really think it was that awesome. Exciting =/= Close. Not all the time. Otherwise Revival vs. Ensnare would be considered one of the best games in GSL history. Did you not see all of the insane shit that Nestea just pulled? Against one of the best Terrans in the world? In a matchup that many would consider most of what he did impossible to win with? I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw someone have >100 workers AND mass Ultralisks (same thing as Carriers or *mass* Thor tbh) and win the game??? Yeah you're right, whenever a Zerg wins he did the impossible. Ultralisks have 6 armour (fully upgraded) and are gigantic. This means Marines do 3 damage (fully upgraded) and Tanks don't splash on them. With Speedling support, Ultralisks are devastating against standard Marine/Tank until the Terran can start incorporating Marauders. Stop acting like he went mass Corruptors and won or something.
To be fair, ultras is something we haven't seen on a winning ZvT in a long time... I dont think anyone could pull that off like Nestea did in the first game. Not saying no one can win with ultras, just not the mass expand massive dronage into ultra infestor while slowing terran down with 50 spine crawlers..
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On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though.
PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything?
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On June 01 2011 23:08 MrSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:05 Bagi wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. Oh god, stop with the bronze level analysis. Is not bronze analysis, its true. Ravens are just perfect against strong mutas. Its just more difficult to micro and more risky than pumping marine.
What makes perfect sense in your mind or in theory does not always translate into actual gameplay. Progamers do not use ravens, wonder why?
Ravens are expensive, they require a techlab which means you cannot really get enough medivacs as well. They will also cut into your tank count. Seeker missile costs 150/150 and 125 energy, this means you have to wait quite a bit to get enough energy to use it. Of course you could get the energy upgrade to speed things up, but thats another 150/150. Overall you've made a huge investment, and if your seeker missiles dont do enough damage or your enemy doesn't let you get enough energy - you're fucked, simple as that.
Zerg has plenty of ways to counter the seeker missile as well. Simply magic boxing above the terran army as if you were fighting thors means that 1) the seeker missile will not do enough damage to warrant its cost and 2) the splash damage will actually hit your own army. Yes, seeker missile does friendly fire.
Not to mention that ravens can do hardly anything against ling/bling, and you will NOT have enough gas for tanks if you've been getting upgraded ravens.
So yes... Bronze level analysis at best.
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On June 01 2011 23:17 WindCalibur wrote:
All in all, this shows that the match up TvZ is still pretty much undiscovered even at the top level play.
Amazingly true. We can blame early rax/bunker pressure (or the inability of Zerg to defend, whichever is truly at fault is irrelevant) for a lot of this. Far too few ZvTs make it to the true late game. What we got from Bomber and NesTea in game one was an absolutely fucking treat. ^_^
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On June 01 2011 23:13 pirates wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:11 TehForce wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 23:05 TehForce wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. In Broodwar the Terran Drophsip was slower than Scourge which was an Anti-Air Baneling and only 2 Scourges (= 1 Larvae) killed an entire dropship. Still every terran is dropping the Zerg. Why post? You didn't make a point at all or disprove my point. My point was that your point is invalid. Only because Ravens could be picked off doesn't mean you can't build them. If your point was true there would be no reason to build medivacs too. My point was that you didn't disprove my point. No pros make Ravens TvZ. They aren't good. LOL yeah try not making medivacs and see how that goes for you...
Im just saying that you can make a raven. Especially on that map. There is NO reason not to. And a lot of GM terrans are regularly making ravens, so i dont see your point? Why should ravens die more often than medivacs? Plus you can defend your tanks a lot better with PDD AND see burrowed banes.
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epic epic day of sc2. glad i stayed up
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On June 01 2011 23:13 pirates wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:11 TehForce wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 23:05 TehForce wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. In Broodwar the Terran Drophsip was slower than Scourge which was an Anti-Air Baneling and only 2 Scourges (= 1 Larvae) killed an entire dropship. Still every terran is dropping the Zerg. Why post? You didn't make a point at all or disprove my point. My point was that your point is invalid. Only because Ravens could be picked off doesn't mean you can't build them. If your point was true there would be no reason to build medivacs too. My point was that you didn't disprove my point. No pros make Ravens TvZ. They aren't good. LOL yeah try not making medivacs and see how that goes for you...
For a very LONG time Banelings were considered garbage in ZvP, now in a few short months they have gone from worthless to amazing just because a few people went out of their way and really tried to work them into their play--mind you these people weren't even Pro players, they were just good players wanting to try something different.
You can't just rule out a unit just because it isn't being used right now
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On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything?
90% syure it doesnt
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On June 01 2011 23:13 fant0m wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 HolyArrow wrote:
He means poor MKP because he thinks that a MKP vs. Nestea final would result in MKP getting roflstomped (and thus we'd see him facedown on his keyboard and break everyone's hearts) What it would mean is that MKP will have been to FOUR finals..... and played against ONE enemy team (IM), and only played against TWO different players, both of which are 2 of the best SC2 players on the planet at the moment. Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 kheldorin wrote:
July beat Huk on this map also. It doesn't matter how many reasons you might think why it is bad for zerg if you don't have data to back it up with. WHAT? July is on a totally different level than HuK. Map doesn't even that skill gap, sorry. I know this is TL, but you can't be THAT biased. I like HuK, but July is a much better player.
That's just one of many examples. So you're saying that every zerg playes that plays on this map is automatically better than their opponent. It's so stupid. They are so many Zerg players that people consider good now because people thought that Zerg were underpowered and so if they win, they are AMAZING. It's the same thing with maps. "Oh Oh A Zerg won on Crossfire, he must be AMAZING!". The logical fallacy is just feeding itself.
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On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though.
No, Raven is just plain bad against muta. It's way slower than muta, can't attack so it's easy to run into random place, and the HSM is even slower than muta, moreover its explosion radius is only 2, which is smaller than a baneling.
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Tomorrow's games don't look as good though.
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On June 01 2011 23:20 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything? 90% syure it doesnt
With patch 1.3.3 Blizzard made a stealth change. Before that patch PDD would kill Broodlings
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On June 01 2011 23:17 WindCalibur wrote:
Really, what I am seeing is, terran does some good damage with a standard push, then fail and lose because they fail to get into a good defensive position against zerg on crossfire. Bomber took out Nestea's 3rd and had his 3rd up about to get running. All he had to do was set up a lot of turrets, get some thors, and played defensive for a while. In fact, a lot of terrans from what I am seeing in korea tries to force engagements thus limiting the muta's mobility but they fail to understand how hard mutas can snowball if you do not put up enough defenses.
All in all, this shows that the match up TvZ is still pretty much undiscovered even at the top level play. Yesterday's NaDa showcased spectacular TvZs that allowed him to "control" opponent while still allowing himself to set up expansions for a good macro game. Yet, despite how hard he dominated, his play, was not refined at all, to where he had floating minerals (1k +) and only had 7 barracks with no reactor making marines on 4 bases (one of the reasons why he was floating minerals). But the right mindset, great understanding of timings and great control over the opponent won him the game so convincingly that he would have won even if he had even 2 or 3k minerals in his bank.
To be honest, as a long time watcher of broodwar, I really believe that despite how well Nestea played today, each races' full potentials are no where close to being reached by any of the current starcraft 2 players. There is a lot of room for improvement and I believe that unless a top tier player on the scales of Flash or Jaedong plays sc2, we will only see a glimmer of just what is capable.
Well, we saw Bomber make a huge mistake in trying to expand to the third below the natural instead of the one on the far left, as he didn't want to float it that far. If he had been able to set up turrets and establish a defensive posture at his left side third beforehand, he would had a much better economy to back that standard push of his. Also, he neglected to make Thors as you mentioned, probably because he felt safe from the mutas but more likely because it was a risk he felt necessary based on his dwindling tank count.
It's really hard to know how much defenses you need to make for a muta flock - often you can't afford to throw up enough turrets, and switching to Thors doesn't just happen that easily. Leaving thors and turrets in your base takes away from resources that could have gone towards your push that would have prevented effective muta harass in the first place. Bomber stuck with his push, thinking that he could pressure Nestea enough to keep the mutas at home while he expanded behind it, but he was ultimately outplayed.
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On June 01 2011 23:20 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything? 90% syure it doesnt
It does, kills the broodlings if I am not mistaken. The pure damage from broodlord is still there tho
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On June 01 2011 23:20 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything? 90% syure it doesnt
It does, it kills the broodlings.
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On June 01 2011 23:18 fant0m wrote:
Why is there so much discussion over freaking baneling bombs??? The game was WELL over before the *single* baneling bomb in the game hit.
Not to mention, as the guy above said, I don't believe that Nestea had even used burrow once yet. It had basically just finished researching. Bomber got hit by it once, and suddenly it's what all the T are using to make their claims of a balanced map?
Yeah, don't understand the Raven discussion to be honest. Funny that Baneling mines might be strong on Crossfire when Siege tanks are known for being deadly on Crossfire.
And anyone who watched the entire game knows that it was all over well before the Bomb went off. It wasn't even the final nail in the coffin, just another blow. Nestea basically had enough mutas to a-move, perhaps with even just a bit of ling backup, into Bombers base. And Bomber was playing really average. 1 in gas to factory? followed by 4 in gas? Followed by pushing with siege tanks without siege mode? To be honest, Bomber lost the game in the first 8 minutes, it was a credit to his reputation and skill that Nestea didn't just a-move earlier.
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On June 01 2011 23:22 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:20 L3g3nd_ wrote:On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything? 90% syure it doesnt It does, it kills the broodlings.
That was "fixed" last patch
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On June 01 2011 23:22 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:20 L3g3nd_ wrote:On June 01 2011 23:19 Lorizean wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:07 Curu wrote:On June 01 2011 23:02 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 23:01 pirates wrote:On June 01 2011 22:59 theMarkovian wrote:
TvZ on Crossfire: Get a Raven Ravens die so easily to mutas. Do you think any Terran honestly is going to make an Air unit that is SLOWER than mutas, cost twice the gas as a muta, dies instantly to mutas and have it on a separate hotkey to potentially survive for 4 minutes? Ravens aren't really an option at all when your opponent has 35 mutas with +2 attack. Then get HSM Mutas have 3 range, if they are in range to shoot a raven they are in range to eat one. HSM is garbage. Costs a ton to upgrade and then you have to wait forever to be able to use it because the energy requirement is ridiculous too. That said, Raven is absolutely a great idea, especially on maps with tiny chokes. If the opponent has like 30 Mutas then you'll need some Thors to protect it obviously. It's great for creep tumours too. HSM upgraded Ravens would be amazing if they managed to stay alive long enough to pool the energy used for it. If it's cast close enough to the rampaging muta flock or the zerg player isn't paying enough attention, it could absolutely be a game winning ability. The problem is that they are quite slow and difficult to protect from mutas until then, and a few Thors with the standard marine support would be needed to make HSM possible. But then again, if you have Thors out anyways then you might as well not make Ravens for HSM. You might as well use PDD against the mutas in that case. Alot of Terrans endgame will have a ridiculous amount of unspent gas and low mineral account and I guess this is where the Ravens could come in, but only once the zerg switches out of mass mutas. HSM on incoming banelings and speedlings and PDD on brood lords anyone? Bomber on Crossfire really wouldn't have been helped that much by switching to Ravens though, and he never felt the need to either. The creep never extended out ridiculously far and that baneling landmine finishing move was completely unexpected. I suppose when he was defending his third at the end, PDD would have saved him from the +2 attack mutas though. PDD on brood lords? Does that even do anything? 90% syure it doesnt It does, it kills the broodlings.
Got stealth nerfed in 1.3.3
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EPT
