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Stupid offtopic discussions end NOW (Page 106). Bans and warnings will be issues afterwards. |
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On June 01 2011 23:31 raga4ka wrote:Crossfire is actually a pretty balanced map . Maybe at the low levels it isn't because low level zergs don't know how to play on it , but at the pro level its pretty balanced . This map is literaly a copy of a BW map called peaks of baekdu which was a pretty balanced map and back then terrans had medics , vultures , vessels and more imbalanced stuff like that  . http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/6_Sin_Peaks_of_Baekdu
I really like Crossfire tbh, it's made for some awesome games at times.
Stats-wise it looks fairly balanced, and though they don't necessarily tell the full story there's a reasonable sample size.
Korean:
TvZ - 7-8
ZvP - 6-6
PvT - 5-6
International:
TvZ - 23-27
ZvP - 22-15
PvT - 27-28
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On June 01 2011 23:12 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:07 FuzzyJAM wrote:
NesTea played spectacularly but people need to recognise that he also played very riskily at some points, especially game one which Bomber nearly came back from despite missing the earlier opportunity to punish NesTea.
Game 2 Bomber just didn't play all that fantastically, at least by the high standards we have for him.
NesTea is obviously the favourite in the tournament now but it's not like he just showed himself to be unbeatable. So basically because he destroyed the best (or second best) Terran in the world in only one of their games in his 2-0 victory (the other being a close win) Nestea is not that good?
How the hell did you get that from what I said? Not unbeatable =/= not that good. It means it's possible to beat him. NesTea is amazing and has the strongest claim to "best player in the world" (though I don't think anyone can claim that title right now). Actually, I even said NesTea played spectacularly.
I'm simply pointing out that his play was not impossible to defeat. Bomber had clear opportunities to punish NesTea in game one which he didn't take and NesTea punished some mistakes of Bomber in game two. There is still a lot to learn; NesTea hasn't "solved ZvT", the game will continue to develop and NesTea will not suddenly have a 100% record vT. People saying no one can beat him or whatever are simply wrong.
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Poor people at mlg. Bomber probably mad for losing and wants to bash some serious face this weekend.
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On June 01 2011 23:34 Goibon wrote:
Whenever Idra would say that map name i thought he was saying Pizza Bake Do
Like it was a restaurant or some fancy Pizza variation.
I'd kill for some pizza now
I got some pizza in my fridge.
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On June 01 2011 23:03 Shalaiyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:02 kheldorin wrote:On June 01 2011 23:00 jeeneeus wrote:
Only Nestea can play against one of the best players in the world, play on the worst map for zerg, and make him look like a jobber. Ugh, stop spreading this myth. The stats clearly favor zerg in this map. The fact that there's zergs winning on this map, mostly because the zerg is a lot better does not make it a good map for zerg. The terrain definetly favours colossus/HT and tanks.
Surely the only way to tell if a map is favoured for a certain race is by the win/loss stats?
You can theory craft all you want, but if the stats say a different story, then your theories are wrong?
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On June 01 2011 23:21 kheldorin wrote:
That's just one of many examples. So you're saying that every zerg playes that plays on this map is automatically better than their opponent. It's so stupid. They are so many Zerg players that people consider good now because people thought that Zerg were underpowered and so if they win, they are AMAZING. It's the same thing with maps. "Oh Oh A Zerg won on Crossfire, he must be AMAZING!". The logical fallacy is just feeding itself.
I never said Zerg was underpowered. I feel they're a very strong race, in fact I've always waffled between T and P in SC2, but about a month ago I started playing Z specifically because I felt that in the hands of someone who knows how to inject without missing, Z macro is insane.
And there are a few (a FEW) Zerg who are really good, they are much better than most of the T and P that they play. I am not saying this due to race, I am saying this in regards to their skill as a player. Skill which I am judging not purely on a head-to-head match up, but their entire career.
It's just as logically fallible to claim that Crossfire is a balanced map because Nestea beat a T or P on it. The man has won two GSL championships. He suffered a minor slump during the rise of MC and Mvp, but honestly he has been an ever-present force in pro SC2 for a long time, and as such it is perfectly reasonable to assume that he can rise above almost any map that is thrown at him. Even in February, during the first team league, Nestea was IM's ultimate trump card, coming out when even Mvp, the current GSL champion, failed.
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Honestly the way Z usually plays out is this. Assuming Z doesn't die to early harass or a timing attack, and isn't overly pressured early, they can explode into a huge macro lead. However, if Z doesn't take advantage of this and at least somewhat contain the T or P that he is playing, limiting the number of bases that they take (hopefully to 2), the Z runs the risk of letting a death ball be created. Whether that be VR/Colo or Marine/Tank(/Thor) or something else, it *will* happen if the T or P gets up to 3 then 4 bases and stays there long enough to get a good ROI.
Where we see Z go wrong in this situation is try to win through this with pure Bling/Muta or Ling/Roach (against T and P respectively). Sometimes the Z doesn't have time to both get his 3rd or 4th going, get enough drones, hit a large army size, and tech, all before he gets attacked. But sometimes he does. And that's something that Z fails to do a lot. Making use of Infestors, Drops, Burrow/movement, and both T3 tech units are the tools that Z has to break a balled up 200/200 T or P.
Normal units don't work. Of course, this is where a lot of the whine comes in, because the perception is that the T and P are just using their normal units, while Z has to resort to spellcaster tricks or mass drops or max tier units just to compete with "T2". Mostly from people like IdrA, who want to make Roach/Ling and feel that they should then beat a similarly teched Protoss due to having a stronger economy, even though the only thing that you can do with that army comp is try to A-Move and fail against infinite forcefields.
I kind of glossed over it, but the Z does have options to try to stop those balls from forming, or from doing a lot of damage. Putting it on the T or P to defend against those options (like Muta harass).
I'm not saying that the metagame is unfair at all, or that it needs to be changed immediately. Just a statement about the current situation. And there are definitely cases where T or P can snowball out of the Z's control, resulting in an almost guaranteed loss.
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On June 01 2011 23:35 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:22 Ayrie wrote:On June 01 2011 23:17 WindCalibur wrote:
Really, what I am seeing is, terran does some good damage with a standard push, then fail and lose because they fail to get into a good defensive position against zerg on crossfire. Bomber took out Nestea's 3rd and had his 3rd up about to get running. All he had to do was set up a lot of turrets, get some thors, and played defensive for a while. In fact, a lot of terrans from what I am seeing in korea tries to force engagements thus limiting the muta's mobility but they fail to understand how hard mutas can snowball if you do not put up enough defenses.
All in all, this shows that the match up TvZ is still pretty much undiscovered even at the top level play. Yesterday's NaDa showcased spectacular TvZs that allowed him to "control" opponent while still allowing himself to set up expansions for a good macro game. Yet, despite how hard he dominated, his play, was not refined at all, to where he had floating minerals (1k +) and only had 7 barracks with no reactor making marines on 4 bases (one of the reasons why he was floating minerals). But the right mindset, great understanding of timings and great control over the opponent won him the game so convincingly that he would have won even if he had even 2 or 3k minerals in his bank.
To be honest, as a long time watcher of broodwar, I really believe that despite how well Nestea played today, each races' full potentials are no where close to being reached by any of the current starcraft 2 players. There is a lot of room for improvement and I believe that unless a top tier player on the scales of Flash or Jaedong plays sc2, we will only see a glimmer of just what is capable. Well, we saw Bomber make a huge mistake in trying to expand to the third below the natural instead of the one on the far left, as he didn't want to float it that far. If he had been able to set up turrets and establish a defensive posture at his left side third beforehand, he would had a much better economy to back that standard push of his. Also, he neglected to make Thors as you mentioned, probably because he felt safe from the mutas but more likely because it was a risk he felt necessary based on his dwindling tank count. It's really hard to know how much defenses you need to make for a muta flock - often you can't afford to throw up enough turrets, and switching to Thors doesn't just happen that easily. Leaving thors and turrets in your base takes away from resources that could have gone towards your push that would have prevented effective muta harass in the first place. Bomber stuck with his push, thinking that he could pressure Nestea enough to keep the mutas at home while he expanded behind it, but he was ultimately outplayed. This leads back to my argument on how TvZ is still undiscovered. You expect top players to know and understand the match up better to be easily able to defend against the muta attack Nestea did. Think about it, if Bomber played this match again, and the game was completely the same until Nestea lost his 3rd, do you think he could have responded better? Of course he would. He would know the amount of power muta counter is and put up more defenses. He would understand what the zerg has better since he already lived through this experience. Some people would argue that this is basically giving Bomber a maphack if Bomber already watched the replay but players like Flash from broodwar make decisions that are borderline hacking not because he actually does hack, it is because of experience and knowledge. Can you find a game that was perfectly played by a person in Sc2, except for small small things like not doing AI splits with marines? Sc2 just feels so much more scrappy and unrefined the more I watch it. In broodwar, people are often showing near perfect games with things refined to the smallest detail. What this means is that even though people say Sc2 has a low skill cap, they just have not seen the full potentials yet. Today's games between Nestea and Bomber completely supports this agreement as almost everyone agrees that there are a lot of improvements both players could have made. Though I was, in a way, disappointed at Bomber's play today (don't get me wrong, he did play great), this lightens my mode as it tells us this game will continue to grow, which is great for esports.
You're comparing a game which is 11 years old and where players actually practice a lot more with a game which was just patched a couple of weeks ago. And also you're talking about Flash, who is extremely meticulous as a person himself.
Frankly, mistakes happen even in BW. It's seldom that you ever see a perfectly played game.
The only difference is that builds (and therefore timings) are still rather volatile and that's why you have less refined games.
All in all though those two games were well played with very few mistakes.
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Nestea is the King of Crossfire.
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On June 01 2011 23:55 H0RNET wrote:
what bonjwa mean?
kon T len d mak mak pen raya vela narn narn(more than year) eiei
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On June 01 2011 23:55 H0RNET wrote:
what bonjwa mean?
A player who shows total dominance over any other player and looks unbeatable for a long period of time.
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On June 01 2011 23:26 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On June 01 2011 23:25 Goibon wrote:
You won't see Ravens used until Zerg en masse use BaneBombs all the time. There's currently no reason to build a Raven other than to be overly safe which players aren't going to do. They need to be forced. Ravens are quite good against broodlords aren't they? nope PDD doesnt do nething
HSM could do a lot of damage to a clumped group of slow moving Broodlords tho.. altho for the cost its probably not very viable.
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SlayerS domination, oh yeah <3
NesTea is next.
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Holy shit... SlayerS 3-0. gg
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Slayers hwaiting ^_^. Makes me sad that MMA didn't make it to Code S.
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On June 01 2011 23:26 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On June 01 2011 23:25 Goibon wrote:
You won't see Ravens used until Zerg en masse use BaneBombs all the time. There's currently no reason to build a Raven other than to be overly safe which players aren't going to do. They need to be forced. Ravens are quite good against broodlords aren't they? nope PDD doesnt do nething
I thought it does? Unless they patched it...
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On June 02 2011 00:30 WafflesX3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:26 thoradycus wrote:On June 01 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On June 01 2011 23:25 Goibon wrote:
You won't see Ravens used until Zerg en masse use BaneBombs all the time. There's currently no reason to build a Raven other than to be overly safe which players aren't going to do. They need to be forced. Ravens are quite good against broodlords aren't they? nope PDD doesnt do nething I thought it does? Unless they patched it...
They did patch it. I forget in which patch but they did.
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Bomber vs Nestea game 2... Wow, what a game. Nestea simply beat him strategically, knew Bomber's style, his attack route, his re-supply path, and his weaknesses. The key wasn't Nestea's mass mutas, but it was him moving his forces out to block Bomber's supply units from joining the main force after his 5o'clock hatchery was blown out. Because of that, Nestea was able to kill off the remaining forces at 5, and Bomber was forced to retreat and play defensive for the rest of the game. Had bomber been able to unite those two groups of units, I seriously doubt Nestea would have been able to survive. Nestea's play was just incredible in a way that he pretty much was still in control even after his hatchery was killed.
One more thing. Bomber was put in a very tough spot early on. I seriously doubt he even half way suspected that Nestea expanded at 5 while successfully defending his front yard. There aren't that many zergs out there who can defend Bomber's harrass while expanding at the same time. So, when Bomber saw the expansion he thought he had to hurry (without the full seige mode) his timing push. I just get the feeling that most of people here missed little things like this when watching the game. The game wasn't as crazy as it was in game 1, but it was very exciting for me regardless.
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Just finished watching MVP - GanZi series
WOOOOOW that was sick !
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3 out of 4 on my liquibet today, damn you Bomber.
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EPT
