EPTGo Team USA!
[GSL WC] Korea vs World (Day 1) - Page 284
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-Ziggy-
Sweden97 Posts
Go Team USA! | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:59 mmdmmd wrote: As an E-sport. Yes. Without someone or some team dominating at some point. People will lose interests over time. hm.. it depends on.. well, think about Messi, Michael Jordan, TIger Woods etc. every professional player practice hard but only a handful of people become legends. They have some special things that other don't have. they are all extremly gifted and that's why people love them, because they are UNIQUE. SC2 is too random imo. ps: I quoted wrong  | ||
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DirtYLOu
575 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:05 Ruseter wrote: No one was comparing Nada in SC2 to Nada in BW. The argument being made is that in SC2 there isn't room for much skill difference between top players because the mechanics needed to play at that level require less apm/focus. The example used was that Nada must have great mechanics because of his BW experience and that the only thing that dictated who won was build order or strat differences. All I'm saying is that Nada made a few mechanical errors in that game. His unit control and macro wasn't perfect. Well ya, but we know that from day 1. Stracraft 2 isn't even near as hard to play as BW, and isn't rewarding the best players. And someone said that SC2 isn't so good for the eSports because it's random. And I AGREE. You won't find ( now ) the player that is really ahead of all others. The only one that comes to my mind is MC, but as we saw he has like stages where he played good and later on he loses easy. I think Blizzard need to add some stuff in Expansions, because i don't see how its going to work out. If simply ProGamers from Korea, lose to players like TT1 ( not taking away anything from him ), then there is something wrong. Or You can look at it from the other side. If NaDa lost to TT1, then maybe openings like banshees arent good enough? We still haven't find out good and solid strats. Like in BW, 3 hatch muta / 3 hatch hydra. Or 4 base ling/ultra/defiler. It's still new game, and we can recall how even the scene was 10 years ago in BW.( Which is not really the case IMMO, the BW was so much harder so when people started playing a lot they actually learned how to control units, AGAIN that's not the case in SC2 since unit control, and MACRO is extremely easy to do.) I think we will have to see what happens in the future ( expansons ), and what Blizzard can offer us overall. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
As always, there are people here who are bringing up the issue of "Oh man, SC2 is too easy that's why they can beat NaDa" , well it is not that simple. First of all, simply clicking fast does not bring anything interesting to the game. Anyone with enough practice can play as fast as a top player given enough time and dedication, so it doesn't add anything new to the game. I watch Flash's games time to time from Youtube, and he's winning not because he clicks fast (well that is important because of how you play the game, but the game is going to be played no matter what), but because he is a great strategist and planner. He knows when to move out, when to expand, when to attack, how to respond to a specific situation and utilize his build order to the best... That is experience, practice and hard work with talent mixed in. I am not sure we'll see someone with that level of skill in SC2 anytime soon, partly because of: 1) There hasn't enough time passed to reach a level of play that can dominate. 2) The gameplay changes from month to month, with balance patches and new strategies which come up, Reapers were seen as a joke but qxc utilized them great versus Genius. Some people talk about Carriers in PvZ. Infestors have just been patched, and can change ZvP if used well. 3) We are only getting big maps right now, so the gameplay will take some time to adjust as well. 4) SC2 is somewhat more closer to a "making the right unit choice" game than BW is in certain situations, partly because of armored/light/bio unit distinctions and some units getting really the upper hand versus some, so this can make most engagements end pretty decisively regardless of how well a player is playing, as if he doesn't have the right unit, he may very well lose. I really disagree about the results being tied to mechanical aspect of the game though. It is really funny to think that clicking fast is actually adding something to the game in bigger picture, What is important, is not the clicks, but what they actually accomplish. It doesn't matter if it takes you 200 APM to make units in SC1 and it takes you 100 in SC2, the important part is making stuff. If it takes you 200, you'll practice and do 200, if it takes you 100, you'll practice and get that aswell. Some of the things that require much apm in a manner that can be optimized in SC1 have been optimized in SC2. There is nothing wrong with that, it is not against logic, problem is the emotions, which prevent some people to really see what's important. | ||
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ranjutan
United States636 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote: SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2. you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player. Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate. I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War.  | ||
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DirtYLOu
575 Posts
IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... | ||
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DirtYLOu
575 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:17 ranjutan wrote: Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate. I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War. Yes, but look how long Flash is on the scene, and then compare his win/loss rate to MC, MVP and others. ( They are not even playing a year.) | ||
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Seronei
Sweden991 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote: BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene. IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... But it's possible to play bad one day even if you're the best player in the world. | ||
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norlock
Netherlands918 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote: BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene. IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... SC2 is a lot about shape, if players are in shape they can play so much better. Just look at how morrow prepares for tournaments, and end up high. MVP got lazy after his win just like Naama got after his win with dreamhack. | ||
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:07 Titorelli wrote: The interviews by Kelly are quite nice - http://de.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920. Esp Sen saying that the Koreans were not playing seriously. thx for the link. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:17 ranjutan wrote: Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate. I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War. you should notice that how many game they played. anyway this is a result that I was talking about. http://img.ppomppu.co.kr/zboard/data3/2010/0419/1271608886_capture.JPG 2009.8 ~ 2010.4.17 | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On March 28 2011 21:36 furymonkey wrote: Totally agree, I don't see GSL are afraid of foreigners, events like this really show they do want foreigners to participate. So why be so exclusive? Are you afraid that korean will take your prize? It's obviously shown that that aren't unstoppable, so I don't understand the arugment. In order for an event to be 'validated' as legit it seems to be that you need koreans in it. I dont mind if Koreans will flight to come to MLG don't get me wrong, that'd be sorta cool. But we need events of our own, with prizes that are reelevant for 'pro gamers' on this side to leave everything else behind and practice like madmen to win. Koreans are beatable, the game is new, but it won't be for long the way its going... Unlike in Broodwar there seems to be a lot more hope for the non-korean community to develop and make esports a reality. Its not about someone being unstoppable or not though, but they are better in general, and inviting koreans to every non-korean event is just discouraging for forgein 'progamers', their chances to win aren't gone, but they're greatly diminished. lets say MC is in NASL, he'd be the big favorite to win, no one ignores how good he is. Can a forgeiner take him down? maybe, maybe not. But potentially this side of the world is giving MC 50k+ prizemoney to take back to korea and make his esports career even bigger and he'll probably do that thing where he says nono with his finger to the camera too. Where as if say White-Ra won, i'd go and say "oh i beat white-ra with a proxy hatch once, maybe i'll win next time" and go train like an animal. if the ROI is 0, there is no reason to even try or devote to a game like this. take this as an example, soccer started taking off in the USA the last few years, but not many years ago the US sucked ass at soccer. some team hired beckham, far from his prime he was one of the best players in the league, but hey soccer kept growing inside the country with its own leagues such as the NASL (coincidence?!). Watching the NASL to South Americans or Europeans would be a joke at the time. But some within their country supported it and made it possible for these players to have a league to win, something to work for, continued to improve and nowadays the USA in a VERY short time has become a good soccer team. Now lets pretend Barcelona FC got invited to the league in its early years... gg. Can the US compete with Spain or Brazil? they can probably put up a good match these days! For Esports to succeed in this hemisphere we need to start from the ground and build up, we can't just pretend that we have the same motivations, acceptance, infrastructure, advertisement, etc as they do in korea. Living here is just more expensive to begin with. I moved in a house with drewbie TT1 and Fenix coming soon, and kiwikaki is here right now preparing for MLG too, so we're trying to build an enviroment for everyone to improve as best as possible, But not everyone is as lucky as us, have the $/time to invest or the motivation to gamble that maybe it'll payoff next tournament. I hope this explains what im trying to say, if it doesnt, f u. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote: BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene. IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... Maybe the GSL champs just think : "oh right I'm the champ, I'm better than all those players so I won't train as hard as them" and end up losing.It's maybe not the case, but MC win at GSL5 conforts me in what I think : it's not that there will be random wins forever, maybe champs just become overconfident after their win but on such a young game with alot of competition (see the code A qualifiers, I'm sure alot of code S would not be code A if they had to go through the qualifiers, because the skill level is very close and there are a ton of good players that still weren't in the GSL (Bomber, Ryung, Seed, Yonghwa etc) who could eliminate them. Maybe I'm wrong and this game will happen to be random but I don't hope so. | ||
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Sami`
89 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote: SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2. you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player. Who says the biggest factor in RTS should be mechanics? for all we know the top BW players could be pretty average at strategy but they will never lose to their strategical peers because they don't have the mechanics to compete. I have no problem with SC2 being more focused on strategy in fact thats the way an RTS should be. Honestly though I think you overstate the multitasking issue, the more effort you put into micro the more macro will suffer no matter how easy it is so we'll never reach the point where more APM isn't advantageous. | ||
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silentsaint
Germany540 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote: BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene. IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... It just shows that he did not train after his success the same amount the others did. The others adapted to his playstyle while he obviously can not adapt to everyone else. If one watched especially the last season it was quite clear that especially the lower - tier - players seemed to have improved quite a lot. Its not that they won their games with pure luck or something like that. They worked their ass off and it paid off. Of course everything I say here is purely based on speculation as I don't know the training those players went through. I did only see that players played awesome last season that played not impressive before and that some players who impressed before could not keep up with that - hence the season of upsets occured. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:27 hitman133 wrote: I think Koreans didn't play seriously. I mean who expect NaDa to all-in like that ? We all know he's a macro-beast right ? MC, MVP, Nestea didn't play. Anypro and San was the weakest in that top 8. MKP didn't play at his best, we know his TvZ already. holy cow. they are at least playing somewhat seriously if not for their own dignity more than anything. i dont think the koreans take their high standings in the world play lightly. we'll see what happens tomorrow but i dont think we have to make excuses for some of the koreans losing. seems like every time a korean loses there is some sort of excuse being made for them be it lag or now this. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote: BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene. IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 .... Isn't the OSL curse exactly that? going from champ to losing horribly? | ||
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TooN
1046 Posts
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