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[GSL WC] Korea vs World (Day 1) - Page 284

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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-Ziggy-
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden97 Posts
March 28 2011 20:08 GMT
#5661
Is this thread going to devolve into another fucking argument about SC2 versus Broodwar? Almost makes me wish that the Koreans had won, at least then this thread would be about the games and the fucking awesome event.

Go Team USA!
namedplayer
Profile Joined June 2010
844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 20:16:32
March 28 2011 20:15 GMT
#5662
On March 29 2011 04:59 mmdmmd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 04:56 Hemula wrote:
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote:
SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2.

you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player.

Is that a bad thing?


As an E-sport. Yes.

Without someone or some team dominating at some point. People will lose interests over time.


hm.. it depends on..

well, think about Messi, Michael Jordan, TIger Woods etc. every professional player practice hard but only a handful of people become legends. They have some special things that other don't have. they are all extremly gifted and that's why people love them, because they are UNIQUE.

SC2 is too random imo.

ps: I quoted wrong
You know what I'm talking about
DirtYLOu
Profile Joined May 2010
575 Posts
March 28 2011 20:15 GMT
#5663
On March 29 2011 05:05 Ruseter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 04:51 DirtYLOu wrote:
On March 29 2011 04:48 Ruseter wrote:
On March 29 2011 03:01 mustache wrote:
On March 29 2011 02:52 ReachTheSky wrote:
On March 29 2011 02:49 mustache wrote:
sad how dumbed down SC2 is compared to BW. it's not like TT1 is all of a sudden way better or nada way worse.


Thats a silly statement dood. It takes alot of skill to compete. TT1 obviously has skill. Whoever said that TT1 was way better or Nada was way worse?


if a BW pro can scout rush a supposed foreigner pro and win. THAT shows you how much better the koreans pros were in BW.

3 OSL and 3 MSL wins are telling me that nada is the better player. In BW that is. In SC2 its all about who does what strat instead of about needing insane mechanics to pull those strats off. Which is sad because it makes things very "flavour of the week"

TT1 is a great player, but if you honestly think SC2 compares to BW in terms of skill difference between top players then you are just lying to yourself or have no clue about BW.


On March 29 2011 02:54 Jakalo wrote:
On March 29 2011 02:49 mustache wrote:
sad how dumbed down SC2 is compared to BW. it's not like TT1 is all of a sudden way better or nada way worse.


Oh man, this is a new game, its sad you cant get over it already.



I play SC2. I have tons of fun playing and watching SC2. What dissapoints me and what im scared of is that SC2's skill limit will be reached way too fast. I'm not mooning over BW, just sad that SC2 is missing things which made BW great.
a 3x OSl and 3x MSL winning losing to some foreigner is proof to me that the skill levels at the top are too close, and it's not really possible to set yourself apart.


Did you watch the TT1 vs. Nada game? Nada lost a banshee due to bad unit control and was supply blocked pretty early on in the game. It's pretty difficult to complain about not needing crazy mechanics to win in SC2 when the player who you're saying has the insane mechanics is making mechanical errors.


NaDa isn't playing anymore. He plays from time to time.

He studies right now on University.


soo... NaDa BW =/= NaDa SC2


No one was comparing Nada in SC2 to Nada in BW. The argument being made is that in SC2 there isn't room for much skill difference between top players because the mechanics needed to play at that level require less apm/focus. The example used was that Nada must have great mechanics because of his BW experience and that the only thing that dictated who won was build order or strat differences. All I'm saying is that Nada made a few mechanical errors in that game. His unit control and macro wasn't perfect.



Well ya, but we know that from day 1. Stracraft 2 isn't even near as hard to play as BW, and isn't rewarding the best players.

And someone said that SC2 isn't so good for the eSports because it's random. And I AGREE. You won't find ( now ) the player that is really ahead of all others. The only one that comes to my mind is MC, but as we saw he has like stages where he played good and later on he loses easy.

I think Blizzard need to add some stuff in Expansions, because i don't see how its going to work out. If simply ProGamers from Korea, lose to players like TT1 ( not taking away anything from him ), then there is something wrong.


Or You can look at it from the other side. If NaDa lost to TT1, then maybe openings like banshees arent good enough? We still haven't find out good and solid strats. Like in BW, 3 hatch muta / 3 hatch hydra. Or 4 base ling/ultra/defiler. It's still new game, and we can recall how even the scene was 10 years ago in BW.( Which is not really the case IMMO, the BW was so much harder so when people started playing a lot they actually learned how to control units, AGAIN that's not the case in SC2 since unit control, and MACRO is extremely easy to do.)

I think we will have to see what happens in the future ( expansons ), and what Blizzard can offer us overall.
http://sc2ranks.com/c/9051/slayersteam/ <-- SlayerS players in Grandmaster !
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
March 28 2011 20:16 GMT
#5664
It was great to watch foreign team doing that good. I think Koreans play much more aggressive and risky in style compared to foreigners, and foreigners are playing much more solid, defensive and patient. Almost every Korean have gone all-in while foreigners were looking for a much long term gameplay.

As always, there are people here who are bringing up the issue of "Oh man, SC2 is too easy that's why they can beat NaDa" , well it is not that simple. First of all, simply clicking fast does not bring anything interesting to the game. Anyone with enough practice can play as fast as a top player given enough time and dedication, so it doesn't add anything new to the game. I watch Flash's games time to time from Youtube, and he's winning not because he clicks fast (well that is important because of how you play the game, but the game is going to be played no matter what), but because he is a great strategist and planner. He knows when to move out, when to expand, when to attack, how to respond to a specific situation and utilize his build order to the best... That is experience, practice and hard work with talent mixed in. I am not sure we'll see someone with that level of skill in SC2 anytime soon, partly because of:

1) There hasn't enough time passed to reach a level of play that can dominate.
2) The gameplay changes from month to month, with balance patches and new strategies which come up, Reapers were seen as a joke but qxc utilized them great versus Genius. Some people talk about Carriers in PvZ. Infestors have just been patched, and can change ZvP if used well.
3) We are only getting big maps right now, so the gameplay will take some time to adjust as well.
4) SC2 is somewhat more closer to a "making the right unit choice" game than BW is in certain situations, partly because of armored/light/bio unit distinctions and some units getting really the upper hand versus some, so this can make most engagements end pretty decisively regardless of how well a player is playing, as if he doesn't have the right unit, he may very well lose.

I really disagree about the results being tied to mechanical aspect of the game though. It is really funny to think that clicking fast is actually adding something to the game in bigger picture, What is important, is not the clicks, but what they actually accomplish. It doesn't matter if it takes you 200 APM to make units in SC1 and it takes you 100 in SC2, the important part is making stuff. If it takes you 200, you'll practice and do 200, if it takes you 100, you'll practice and get that aswell. Some of the things that require much apm in a manner that can be optimized in SC1 have been optimized in SC2. There is nothing wrong with that, it is not against logic, problem is the emotions, which prevent some people to really see what's important.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
ranjutan
Profile Joined November 2010
United States636 Posts
March 28 2011 20:17 GMT
#5665
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote:
SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2.

you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player.

Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate.
I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War.
http://i53.tinypic.com/1r3j0p.gif
DirtYLOu
Profile Joined May 2010
575 Posts
March 28 2011 20:18 GMT
#5666
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....
http://sc2ranks.com/c/9051/slayersteam/ <-- SlayerS players in Grandmaster !
DirtYLOu
Profile Joined May 2010
575 Posts
March 28 2011 20:20 GMT
#5667
On March 29 2011 05:17 ranjutan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote:
SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2.

you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player.

Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate.
I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War.


Yes, but look how long Flash is on the scene, and then compare his win/loss rate to MC, MVP and others. ( They are not even playing a year.)
http://sc2ranks.com/c/9051/slayersteam/ <-- SlayerS players in Grandmaster !
Seronei
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden991 Posts
March 28 2011 20:21 GMT
#5668
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote:
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....

But it's possible to play bad one day even if you're the best player in the world.
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
March 28 2011 20:21 GMT
#5669
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote:
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....

SC2 is a lot about shape, if players are in shape they can play so much better. Just look at how morrow prepares for tournaments, and end up high. MVP got lazy after his win just like Naama got after his win with dreamhack.
Are you human?
Ludwigvan
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany2371 Posts
March 28 2011 20:22 GMT
#5670
On March 29 2011 05:07 Titorelli wrote:
The interviews by Kelly are quite nice - http://de.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920. Esp Sen saying that the Koreans were not playing seriously.

thx for the link.
namedplayer
Profile Joined June 2010
844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 20:24:58
March 28 2011 20:24 GMT
#5671
On March 29 2011 05:17 ranjutan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote:
SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2.

you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player.

Per TLPD, Flash's career win rate is 72%. That's the same as current SC2 Korean Elo #2 and #3, MC and Mvp. It's lower than #1 Bomber's win rate.
I don't think that proves anything, but you may be overrating the "consistency" of results in professional Brood War.


you should notice that how many game they played. anyway this is a result that I was talking about.

http://img.ppomppu.co.kr/zboard/data3/2010/0419/1271608886_capture.JPG

2009.8 ~ 2010.4.17


You know what I'm talking about
hitman133
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1425 Posts
March 28 2011 20:27 GMT
#5672
I think Koreans didn't play seriously. I mean who expect NaDa to all-in like that ? We all know he's a macro-beast right ? MC, MVP, Nestea didn't play. Anypro and San was the weakest in that top 8. MKP didn't play at his best, we know his TvZ already.
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1226 Posts
March 28 2011 20:32 GMT
#5673
On March 28 2011 21:36 furymonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 21:27 LeaD wrote:
On March 28 2011 21:20 Armsved wrote:
On March 28 2011 21:15 CatZ.root wrote:
lets hope people actually start supporting and respecting international players instead of idolizing and making excuses for whenever koreans lose against forgeiners... this isn't broodwar, the gap is way smaller at the top level.

People in the western hemisphere have brains too, and don't need to just blindly copy builds to get by. It'd be really nice to see people actually wanting to make esports a reality outside of korea, but the way a lot of people think is really discouraging and depressing.

Koreans are not invincible! -YET- why do I say YET? its simple, they are pulling ahead, not far ahead, just ahead. Because of events like GSL they can train a lot and have reachable goals that make it worth while for them to commit to the game. No one seems to complain that there isn't enough forgeiners in GSL, However, everyone likes complain and cry to make sure that Koreans are invited to events like TSL or NASL (NORTH AMERICAN STARLEAGUE).

I am not saying koreans should be just excluded from all international events, but the truth is, the only way to make esports successful is to create a competitive enviroment, where I am scared of playing KiWiKaKi not MC. Need our own 'stars' our own prizes and our own incentives on this side of the world. Need to create an enviroment where people aren't looking to move to korea, but instead move to this side of the map, like IdrA did.

There should be events like this one or WCG or many others where there are opportunities for people all over the world to face each other, but we need to create some sort of separation as an incentive to "foreigners" to train and improve in a similar enviroment as they have setup in korea.

You reading this are a 'foreigner'...but why are you the 'foreigner', is your brain less capable of producing quality strategy, are your hands too fat and slow by nature's default?

ffs lets stop being the foreigners.



Catz y u so handsome?!

I was always wondering why people make these excuses for the koreans, when TT1 just destroyed his last 2 opponents with nearly flawless play.

But not it cannot be, nada lost because TT1 was lucky and blind countered his build with a non robo opener. Wait....

Foreigners are destroying the koreans with superior play in GSL and TSL. But if you NEED to completely destroy the accomplishments of TT1, Adel etc. then blame it on variance please since that makes the most sense.


I don't understand this argument comparing the amount of foreigners in the GSL compared to the NASL. The GSL gives anyone the opportunity to participate and everyone has to work their way up now, except ironically when 4 foreigner spots were provided for code A. So, it's understandable when people get upset that certain foreigners are excluded when a lot of them should be invited based on their resume so far in Starcraft 2, especially over some of the players invited to the NASL so far. It's not supposed to degrade non-Korean players, it's just understandable that people would not enjoy this exclusion when the tournament is supposed to include the best players, which is non-Korean AND Korean players.

That was more for Catz than you.


Totally agree, I don't see GSL are afraid of foreigners, events like this really show they do want foreigners to participate.

So why be so exclusive? Are you afraid that korean will take your prize? It's obviously shown that that aren't unstoppable, so I don't understand the arugment.


In order for an event to be 'validated' as legit it seems to be that you need koreans in it. I dont mind if Koreans will flight to come to MLG don't get me wrong, that'd be sorta cool. But we need events of our own, with prizes that are reelevant for 'pro gamers' on this side to leave everything else behind and practice like madmen to win. Koreans are beatable, the game is new, but it won't be for long the way its going... Unlike in Broodwar there seems to be a lot more hope for the non-korean community to develop and make esports a reality.

Its not about someone being unstoppable or not though, but they are better in general, and inviting koreans to every non-korean event is just discouraging for forgein 'progamers', their chances to win aren't gone, but they're greatly diminished.

lets say MC is in NASL, he'd be the big favorite to win, no one ignores how good he is. Can a forgeiner take him down? maybe, maybe not. But potentially this side of the world is giving MC 50k+ prizemoney to take back to korea and make his esports career even bigger and he'll probably do that thing where he says nono with his finger to the camera too. Where as if say White-Ra won, i'd go and say "oh i beat white-ra with a proxy hatch once, maybe i'll win next time" and go train like an animal. if the ROI is 0, there is no reason to even try or devote to a game like this.

take this as an example, soccer started taking off in the USA the last few years, but not many years ago the US sucked ass at soccer. some team hired beckham, far from his prime he was one of the best players in the league, but hey soccer kept growing inside the country with its own leagues such as the NASL (coincidence?!). Watching the NASL to South Americans or Europeans would be a joke at the time. But some within their country supported it and made it possible for these players to have a league to win, something to work for, continued to improve and nowadays the USA in a VERY short time has become a good soccer team.

Now lets pretend Barcelona FC got invited to the league in its early years... gg. Can the US compete with Spain or Brazil? they can probably put up a good match these days!

For Esports to succeed in this hemisphere we need to start from the ground and build up, we can't just pretend that we have the same motivations, acceptance, infrastructure, advertisement, etc as they do in korea. Living here is just more expensive to begin with. I moved in a house with drewbie TT1 and Fenix coming soon, and kiwikaki is here right now preparing for MLG too, so we're trying to build an enviroment for everyone to improve as best as possible, But not everyone is as lucky as us, have the $/time to invest or the motivation to gamble that maybe it'll payoff next tournament.

I hope this explains what im trying to say, if it doesnt, f u.
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12864 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 20:38:05
March 28 2011 20:36 GMT
#5674
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote:
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....

Maybe the GSL champs just think : "oh right I'm the champ, I'm better than all those players so I won't train as hard as them" and end up losing.It's maybe not the case, but MC win at GSL5 conforts me in what I think : it's not that there will be random wins forever, maybe champs just become overconfident after their win but on such a young game with alot of competition (see the code A qualifiers, I'm sure alot of code S would not be code A if they had to go through the qualifiers, because the skill level is very close and there are a ton of good players that still weren't in the GSL (Bomber, Ryung, Seed, Yonghwa etc) who could eliminate them. Maybe I'm wrong and this game will happen to be random but I don't hope so.
WriterMaru
Sami`
Profile Joined March 2011
89 Posts
March 28 2011 20:37 GMT
#5675
On March 29 2011 04:53 namedplayer wrote:
SC2 is more random. Nobody can get Flash's win ratio in SC2(80wins 20 loses 80%,80%,80%) because there is no physical skill part in SC2.

you don't need apm that much. you don't need multitasking that much. so anyone who practice hard can be a top tier player.


Who says the biggest factor in RTS should be mechanics? for all we know the top BW players could be pretty average at strategy but they will never lose to their strategical peers because they don't have the mechanics to compete.

I have no problem with SC2 being more focused on strategy in fact thats the way an RTS should be.

Honestly though I think you overstate the multitasking issue, the more effort you put into micro the more macro will suffer no matter how easy it is so we'll never reach the point where more APM isn't advantageous.
silentsaint
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany540 Posts
March 28 2011 20:41 GMT
#5676
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote:
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....


It just shows that he did not train after his success the same amount the others did.
The others adapted to his playstyle while he obviously can not adapt to everyone else. If one watched especially the last season it was quite clear that especially the lower - tier - players seemed to have improved quite a lot.

Its not that they won their games with pure luck or something like that. They worked their ass off and it paid off.

Of course everything I say here is purely based on speculation as I don't know the training those players went through. I did only see that players played awesome last season that played not impressive before and that some players who impressed before could not keep up with that - hence the season of upsets occured.
It really tied the room together.
Deleted User 108965
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1096 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 20:47:34
March 28 2011 20:43 GMT
#5677
On March 29 2011 05:27 hitman133 wrote:
I think Koreans didn't play seriously. I mean who expect NaDa to all-in like that ? We all know he's a macro-beast right ? MC, MVP, Nestea didn't play. Anypro and San was the weakest in that top 8. MKP didn't play at his best, we know his TvZ already.


holy cow. they are at least playing somewhat seriously if not for their own dignity more than anything. i dont think the koreans take their high standings in the world play lightly. we'll see what happens tomorrow but i dont think we have to make excuses for some of the koreans losing. seems like every time a korean loses there is some sort of excuse being made for them be it lag or now this.
Disciple....Top 3 control in Clarion County
mustache
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland309 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 20:43:58
March 28 2011 20:43 GMT
#5678
It shouldnt be the biggest factor. but a big one. if mechanics were all Bw was about bisu would reign supreme and not flash, who is a rather low APM player compared to others. hes just smart
lolnoty
Profile Joined December 2005
United States7166 Posts
March 28 2011 20:43 GMT
#5679
On March 29 2011 05:18 DirtYLOu wrote:
BTW. We also see how SC2 is random in Korean Scene.

IMMvp is one day a champion, another day he is in Code A. I don't know how that can happen. It's impossible to lose "skill" from being a champion to not even being a top 32 ....


Isn't the OSL curse exactly that? going from champ to losing horribly?
"PPD is a very angry guy. He controls us." - Arteezy
TooN
Profile Joined February 2011
1046 Posts
March 28 2011 20:43 GMT
#5680
i Love how every tourney thread gets off topic hhaahaha. From balance, lag, bw vs sc2, bm, etc...
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