EPTI am a BW fan and always will, but give the game a damn chance.
[GSL WC] Korea vs World (Day 1) - Page 281
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SafeWord
United States522 Posts
I am a BW fan and always will, but give the game a damn chance. | ||
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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:25 Miefer wrote: I played some bw before but not that much like sc2 now. so i am not a expert in bw. i am really curious what make people think that sc2 need less mechanics than bw? i mean in bw you didnt have larva inject, creep spread , mules, crono and so on. also the resource managment is quite the same. army control too. mules and chrono don't really require much attention since you can spam them whenever forgotten. Larva inject is probably the single new element in sc2 that actually adds diffculty in comparison to bw. The demanded mechanics in sc2 are significantly easier in comparison to bw. Here are some examples: - Try constantly producing units from 25-30 gateways when being able to select only one at a time (same applies to hatcheries and barracks/factories) - Try attacking with 100+ zerglings when you can select only 12 at a time - mutalisk stacking, which is missing in sc2, was extremely demanding in bw - you could not rally workers onto resources! the list goes on and on: MBS, smartcasting, hotkeying basically infinite amount of units, improved unit ai... I greatly enjoy watching sc2, but viewed objectively bw mechanics were significantly more demanding than mechanics in sc2. ... Is that honestly what you're arguing? I'd certainly accept that the skill ceiling for mechanical play is lower in SC2...if you're only talking about base management, but micro? There is absolutely no limit to how much room there is for unit control to improve IN EITHER GAME, but there is a limit to how much a person can physically do. If players are using their hands less for the mechanics you listed, they're just going to find other ways to improve. There's simply no reason why this cannot be the case, and THAT is a fact. ... I agree that due to its easier mechanics sc2 allows some things that would have been extremely difficult in bw like doing multi-pronged attacks, multiple drops, constant harrassing and to some extent time to micro your units in battle. However, micro is by no means a skill that you can constantly use in sc2 and is highly limited. If a certain point is well-defended you couldn't possibly get through with any amount of micro. When two armies clash there is basically no time to do any micro. A stimmed bio-ball will eat through an opponent's army in a matter of seconds, just like it would die in only a few moments to well-guided banelings or a bunch of collossi/high templar. When armies' size increases micro becomes less and less possible up to the point where just casting a few spells and issueing 2-3 move commands is everything you can do. | ||
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Siphonal
United States81 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:30 madmandrit wrote: Everyone keeps saying SC2 is much easier. Then why is skill gap so close? Why aren't the korean's completely raping? Note: I don't agree with BW vs SC2 arguments but I understand the other people point of view. I hate using the "chess" example but I just can't come up with anything better atm. Chess = advanced Tic tac toe = easy If I would play Gary Kasparov at chess he would totally steamroll me. Now if we play a simpler game, tic tac toe, he still probbly would beat me =) . But I'd stand a better chance because the game is easier. That is pretty much what the debate comes down to when people compare BW with SC2 and complain. SC2 game mechanics easier = easier for people to close the skill gap to the gosu players when they can focus on less things since the UI/ game mechanics helps you somewhat. Flash in BW can probably macro out of 4 bases selecting each damn worker and send them to the mineral line while handling multiple drops = super gosu. In sc2 you set the waypoint from main building to mineral lines and don't have to send each worker seperately to mine. Now suddenly Flash's super gosu macro from 4 base isn't as hard anymore = skill gap less. Flash has to find some other thing to differentiate himself from others. Less things to different things = easier = skill gap closer between players. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
mad props to team world though, very impressive. hopefully this means more international tournaments in the future! | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:44 Scribble wrote: Congratulations, you pointed out differences. A human being is only capable of so many tasks at a time. In BW, you correctly pointed out a number of important mechanics that players have to focus on, skill-sets which aren't necessary in SC2. So here's a thought, doesn't that just leave room for other skill-sets to develop? What I'm getting at, is let's just say the "skill ceiling," the maximum amount of tasks anyone is capable of handling is 400 actions per minute. In BW, you hit your skill ceiling managing these mechanics. In SC2, people will hit it managing other mechanics UNLESS there is no way, mechanically, to play better. Is that honestly what you're arguing? I'd certainly accept that the skill ceiling for mechanical play is lower in SC2...if you're only talking about base management, but micro? There is absolutely no limit to how much room there is for unit control to improve IN EITHER GAME, but there is a limit to how much a person can physically do. If players are using their hands less for the mechanics you listed, they're just going to find other ways to improve. There's simply no reason why this cannot be the case, and THAT is a fact. BW does inherently take more skill to be a top level player; it requires DIFFERENT skills. wrong. im sorry, but this arguement keeps getting made while it holds not truth. if the opportunity to micro in BW and SC2 is the same then on a micro level the skill is the same(actually not true bcause of smartcase but ill neglect that) id say they're pretty close though if the strategical aspect in Bw and SC2 is the same then the skill level is the same. id say this si true as well if the opportunity for mechanics in BW and SC2 is the same then the skill level is the same. this is not true however so lets sum up: skill opportunitys in sc2: micro, strategy skill opportunitys in BW: micro strategy, mechanics so if a BW player can reach the micro and strategy of a SC2 player(trust me, they can  ) while maintaining insane mechanics wouldn't you argue that takes more skill than without those mechanics?more possibility to improve is always better | ||
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epik151
312 Posts
If a game is easier and has a lower skill ceiling, why would the higher skilled players dominate? It makes it so the game could go either way with less competitive value and mirth. | ||
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
In SC2 decision-making is a lot more important. If someone is way better at reacting and making the right decisions he's not more skilled because he didn't click 10 more times? Flawed logic right there. Skill isn't only about physical speed and mechanics. | ||
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xaneda
United Kingdom56 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:46 ggrrg wrote: - Try constantly producing units from 25-30 gateways when being able to select only one at a time (same applies to hatcheries and barracks/factories) 25-30 gateways and barracks? This isn't fastest map possible. Try not to talk out of your ass. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:54 Xeris wrote: man.. Fnatic gets shafted on brackets of these things. Sen vs Fenix Round 1 of TSL, Sen vs TT1 might play round 2 of the WC , this sucks ~~ But Fnatic did the foreign sc2 scene a great service today  | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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Jakalo
Latvia2350 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:54 Xeris wrote: man.. Fnatic gets shafted on brackets of these things. Sen vs Fenix Round 1 of TSL, Sen vs TT1 might play round 2 of the WC , this sucks ~~ Well at least you got a guaranteed player in the next round SKT1 of foreign scene | ||
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Docmedical
Libya75 Posts
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haylmfao
124 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:25 mustache wrote: I think SC2 could have had the scene it has with more difficult mechanics as well If SC2 preserved all the BW mechanics, I know I wouldn't play it. I'm absolutely sure most casual gamers such as myself (diamond before you ask) share my point of view and are glad SC2 mechanics are easier than BW, I even know some people complaining you can't auto automatize unit production or larva injects. You have to find the middle ground and BW isn't even close. How does this affect the competitive scene? Well obviously, most people watching tournaments are people who play the game, so more players = audience and the organizers know that (if you can think of any other reason why Halo has international tournaments while BW doesn't, let me know). | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:54 Xeris wrote: man.. Fnatic gets shafted on brackets of these things. Sen vs Fenix Round 1 of TSL, Sen vs TT1 might play round 2 of the WC , this sucks ~~ Not really getting shafted if it were random draws, its just bad luck. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:47 papaz wrote: Note: I don't agree with BW vs SC2 arguments but I understand the other people point of view. I hate using the "chess" example but I just can't come up with anything better atm. Chess = advanced Tic tac toe = easy If I would play Gary Kasparov at chess he would totally steamroll me. Now if we play a simpler game, tic tac toe, he still probbly would beat me =) . But I'd stand a better chance because the game is easier. That is pretty much what the debate comes down to when people compare BW with SC2 and complain. SC2 game mechanics easier = easier for people to close the skill gap to the gosu players when they can focus on less things since the UI/ game mechanics helps you somewhat. Flash in BW can probably macro out of 4 bases selecting each damn worker and send them to the mineral line while handling multiple drops = super gosu. In sc2 you set the waypoint from main building to mineral lines and don't have to send each worker seperately to mine. Now suddenly Flash's super gosu macro from 4 base isn't as hard anymore = skill gap less. Flash has to find some other thing to differentiate himself from others. Less things to different things = easier = skill gap closer between players. Until I see a player play a perfect game and lose (and I have never done so in SC2 or BW) I will not think of the skill gap or ceiling a significant issue. Chrono is still tragically underused late in the game, mule timings are not perfect (which is really a huge deal, 30 minerals can mean a lot), creep spread is not perfect, and players seem consistently surprised by the other's plays. Every player I have seen lose deserved to lose because of a combination of poor macro and decision making. | ||
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