Dignitas Manager: Toh1o How did you feel knowing you were going to face EG after losing to them in the regular season? Dignitas.Toh1o: We knew that whatever the outcome in the group stage will still play against them.So we were ready for a tough match. Knew that they would use IdrA for the last game and he is not very good against protoss so we chose to play NaNiwa in the ace game.
Dignitas and Fnatic have an exciting history, with a narrow 3-2 victory in the GameCred final, but losing 2-3 in the regular season here. What are your thoughts about the match Sunday? Dignitas.Toh1o: I think it would be very difficult match for both teams, maybe another 3-2 but who will win will be known only on Sunday GL!
FnaticMSI Manager: Xeris You managed to 3-0 Liquid in the first semi final match, how did that happen? FnaticMSI.Xeris: It was more luck than anything -- all the matches were 2-1, it could have easily been 0-3 on a different day. It is a testament to something I guess, either way I hope that our luck will carry us straight through the finals too!
Dignitas and Fnatic have an exciting history, with a narrow 2-3 loss in the GameCred final, but winning 3-2 in the regular season here. What are your thoughts about the match Sunday? FnaticMSI.Xeris: Dignitas revenged itself for a regular season loss last week, I'm just hoping they don't do so again. We're 1-1 against them so I am wanting to break the tie and take a 2-1 CW score against them. The draw is pretty bad for us so I'm pretty nervous, but let's see what happens!
Tournament run by GosuCoaching.com Thanks to Disciple for the results and recommended games images. AND thanks to tree.hugger for this post!!! (I'm sanctioned-stealing it from him)
The TSL and GCPL final coming around at the same time? Too awesome. Lets go Dignitas! I do hope Gretorp as a caster keeps his bias on the down low. Just for the audience's sake. Fine job so far though. Dignitas!
I'm expecting all the Terrans to lose their matches and it coming down to the ACE match between Naniwa and possibly Sen. Should be a close series. Are Sen's games being cast of replays or live?
Aw man,this is gonna be so awesome. I predict victories for Naniwa and KawaiiRice,but the other matches are really hard to predict. I think it will go on an ace match and Dignitas will take it there,cause Naniwa has been playing amazingly the last couple of weeks.
I kinda have to agree with Xeris, the matchups definitely favor Dignitas - that said, anything can happen and if there's an ace match I don't think anyone on Dignitas would be favored against Sen Hoping for some GGs~
Dignitas will probably play Nani in the ace imo, since I believe he's strongest across all three match ups currently. I dunno what Fnatic will do if it hits the ace, I'd imagine Sen but maybe they go with TT1
Strange move by dignitas to have Bischu play, he is not even close to the skill level of any top EU player. I think fnatic will take this, sjow has really been underpreforming lately, his low apm and poor mechanics are catching up to him when he can no longer do 1 build and get away with it like before. Naniwa should take his game but I think TT1 could take select out.
Dignitas 3-1. I think Nani will take out Fenix pretty handily and apparently kawaiirice can't overcome TvP right now. Maybe that changed in the past week but we'll let him answer to that. Sjow vs Sen and Select vs TT1 can go both ways.
On March 18 2011 03:58 NotSupporting wrote: Strange move by dignitas to have Bischu play, he is not even close to the skill level of any top EU player. I think fnatic will take this, sjow has really been underpreforming lately, his low apm and poor mechanics are catching up to him when he can no longer do 1 build and get away with it like before. Naniwa should take his game but I think TT1 could take select out.
You understimate Bischu. He just beat Brat_OK 3-2 today in an invitational tournament and has proved before that he has what it takes to compete with the best. Saying "he is not even close" is a huge understatement. He's definitely up there competing with the top.
Its live so if it is again at 5 am like against Liquid for European guys which is unfair, it will prolly be 3-0 for Fnatic again. On normal times tho i see Dignitas winning 3-1 or 3-2 depends on sjow match. If only Naniwa and Sjow changed places i could see this goin 3-0 to Dignitas.
I think the popularity of TSL 3 has demonstrated to sponsors that scheduling any cast at the same time as TSL 3 might be a bad idea. Still, it's not impossible to watch two streams at the same time. That's what I'll be doing tomorrow
Hmm, gonna be taking Dignitas over Fnatic, unless they can make it to the Ace match, then I'm less inclined to make a solid pick. Sen look very strong at the TSL3 and would in my mind be the likely ace match pick, but it's well known that both SelecT and Sjow are monsters, and ZvP is rather "imbalanced" as of late. With that being said the options available to Dignitas just seem far more varied and all viable.
I woke up at 6:30 to watch kawaiirice play and the freaking MATCH ORDER changed???? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Well i'm still glad he won. Fnatic fighting!!!!
On March 21 2011 06:12 Tachion wrote: Nani takes out a 200/200 army of roach/hydra with 150 supply of gateway units. wait what?
Why u gotta troll the balance dude,the position of zerg army was horrible,even gretorp said so himself,hydras didnt even attack at all due to ff and position.
Once protoss figure out a transition out of this 6gate blink into colossus, I am going to cry. This play forces hydras even more so then the void ray. You can't even overproduce corrupters because they don't have to transition into colossus.
Naniwa is doing it wrong... if he does the MC build he either has to win early with his sentrie/stalker ball or actually transition into something else later on.
On March 21 2011 06:38 Jager wrote: Naniwa is a very good player but I'm sorry FF are far too good.
For people like you who think FF are overpowered, take note as to how Sen stopped that army.
Stop the FF QQ.
But still FF make the armies trade at a rate of 4-1 for Naniwa. If zerg needs 4 times as much resources to beat FF with GREAT micro, than I think there may be something wrong here.
why was the ace result was posted 1-1 before naniwa gg'ed just because sen was way ahead i thought the zelnaga game was game 3 and digintas lost to fnatic
On March 21 2011 06:38 Jager wrote: Naniwa is a very good player but I'm sorry FF are far too good.
For people like you who think FF are overpowered, take note as to how Sen stopped that army.
Stop the FF QQ.
Exactly, like I said, this is why you don't attack off creep with Hydras. Look at how they tore through Naniwa's army when they fought on creep
you're wrong
That's what happens when hydras can actually shoot But force fields denied that for literally every engage prior to the final fight (and only because sentries ran out of energy)
On March 21 2011 06:38 Jager wrote: Naniwa is a very good player but I'm sorry FF are far too good.
For people like you who think FF are overpowered, take note as to how Sen stopped that army.
Stop the FF QQ.
barely win fights with over 60 supply lead in every single engage, then win with 3base vs 1? =_=
barely? lol that wasn't barely.
Seriously, that was a close call until the last engagement.. after that early advantage, in no other match up would the losing side would have been able to last as much as Naniwa did.. and though Naniwa is gosu, so is Sen.
On March 21 2011 06:38 Jager wrote: Naniwa is a very good player but I'm sorry FF are far too good.
For people like you who think FF are overpowered, take note as to how Sen stopped that army.
Stop the FF QQ.
Exactly, like I said, this is why you don't attack off creep with Hydras. Look at how they tore through Naniwa's army when they fought on creep
you're wrong
That's what happens when hydras can actually shoot But force fields denied that for literally every engage prior to the final fight (and only because sentries ran out of energy)
Its not like these sentrys were for free. Nani had no tech because he invested in them.
This is exactly the way Zerg needs to be played. Constant harrass, all over the place. Abusive mobility. Fantastic play from Sen. Naniwa's gonna GG soon.
Sen looks amazingly sharp of late, even being a massive dignitas fanboy I won't mind seeing Sen take this series. Hopefully he can represent well in the GOM WC
These games prove how good forcefields and blink are when attacking a choke. Cut off army with forcefield, force the battle to have low damage output so that you can proceed to blink micro back half damaged stalkers, having complete retention of toss army. Also, it's almost a must to have drop tech to accompany roach hydras tech to finish off a weaker toss by avoiding these chokes.
Good casting duo. One tip for Incontrol though: get a better mic. The sound is pretty low quality and it sounds like you are casting from an empty room.
Very entertaining game ! These players are throwing everything at each other but the kitchen sink. Thought Sen was in trouble but he repelled Nani's push at his 4rd with reinforcements.
I'm really excited that out of all the amazing tourneys this weekend (GSL, GCPL, and TSL3), that the GSL was the biggest letdown IMO. I'm amazed how much the foreign tournaments are moving up in the world. Props. Can't wait for the ace of the ace. Sen fighting!!
great games to end the league. shoutout to everyone running this i looked forward to it every week. hope next season is even better! ggs everyone. SEN FIGHTINGGG!!!!
On March 21 2011 07:27 ccHaZaRd wrote: maxed with a huge bank and no hive tech, broods would have won him that game with all those spines
He didn't have a huge bank.. he was in fact not mining at all and had trouble reinforcing with roaches in the last engagement. I think he did the best he could.. switching to hive early after getting his third could have given him a more cost effective army composition, but Naniwa started attacking right at that time.
On March 21 2011 07:27 Psyclon wrote: It's always stalkers finishing the game. I don't know why protoss players say they are garbage.
They are not garbage, but roaches cost 75/25 and stalker 125/50 and they are pretty even in a fight without forcefields and blink and even with blink-micro they aren't as cost effective as roaches.
You can only finish the game with stalkers if you are ahead.
On March 21 2011 07:37 ssregitoss wrote: sen takes so much expantions that is his mistake.3 is enough.a lot of zerg makes that mistake.
No, he lost the 4th game because he didn't make enough expansions. It's very easy to run out of resources macroing as a Zerg because your units are not cost efficient vs. Protoss late-game.
On March 21 2011 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Naniwa in top left spot, Sen in bottom left spot.
Naniwa pauses because it's laggy for him.
(Lag is fixed.)
Pool first for Sen, then hatchery. Gateway for Naniwa, then cyber core. Looking to wall himself. Very standard. Double gas
~3:30
Stargate goes down for Naniwa. 1 gas for Sen. ~5:00
Naniwa throws down expo. Sen droning hard. ~5:30
4 phoenix for Naniwa. A bunch of slings for Sen. Lair up and spire going down for Sen. Looks like previous game... Queens getting sniped! ~8:30
Phoenixes being SO ANNOYING. Overlords getting sniped, same with queens! Naniwa is in such a good position! Still just 4 phoenix but soooo good. Robo going down. ~10:00
Come on Geoff, that wasn't a misclick on the phoenix, he dropped the queen temporarily to micro back the injured phoenix instead of letting it die to the spore.
On March 21 2011 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Naniwa in top left spot, Sen in bottom left spot.
Naniwa pauses because it's laggy for him.
(Lag is fixed.)
Pool first for Sen, then hatchery. Gateway for Naniwa, then cyber core. Looking to wall himself. Very standard. Double gas
~3:30
Stargate goes down for Naniwa. 1 gas for Sen. ~5:00
Naniwa throws down expo. Sen droning hard. ~5:30
4 phoenix for Naniwa. A bunch of slings for Sen. Lair up and spire going down for Sen. Looks like previous game... Queens getting sniped! ~8:30
Phoenixes being SO ANNOYING. Overlords getting sniped, same with queens! Naniwa is in such a good position! Still just 4 phoenix but soooo good. Robo going down. ~10:00
Corruptors finally out for Sen. Phoenixes pulling back. Robo bay going down, colossus coming out soon. 8 Mutalisks out . Decent-sized Protoss army (stalker/ sentry/ zealot/ one immortal). About 20 ground units there. ~12:30
On March 21 2011 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Naniwa in top left spot, Sen in bottom left spot.
Naniwa pauses because it's laggy for him.
(Lag is fixed.)
Pool first for Sen, then hatchery. Gateway for Naniwa, then cyber core. Looking to wall himself. Very standard. Double gas
~3:30
Stargate goes down for Naniwa. 1 gas for Sen. ~5:00
Naniwa throws down expo. Sen droning hard. ~5:30
4 phoenix for Naniwa. A bunch of slings for Sen. Lair up and spire going down for Sen. Looks like previous game... Queens getting sniped! ~8:30
Phoenixes being SO ANNOYING. Overlords getting sniped, same with queens! Naniwa is in such a good position! Still just 4 phoenix but soooo good. Robo going down. ~10:00
Corruptors finally out for Sen. Phoenixes pulling back. Robo bay going down, colossus coming out soon. 8 Mutalisks out . Decent-sized Protoss army (stalker/ sentry/ zealot/ one immortal). About 20 ground units there. ~12:30
Sen doing a little harrassment with his mutas/ corruptors, and takes out the phoenixes! Getting back into the game and has a slightly better economy than Naniwa. Third base going up for Naniwa. Third has been up for Sen for a while.
Time for Naniwa to push! NANIWA LOSES EVERYTHING TO MUTAS. ~15:00
On March 21 2011 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Naniwa in top left spot, Sen in bottom left spot.
Naniwa pauses because it's laggy for him.
(Lag is fixed.)
Pool first for Sen, then hatchery. Gateway for Naniwa, then cyber core. Looking to wall himself. Very standard. Double gas
~3:30
Stargate goes down for Naniwa. 1 gas for Sen. ~5:00
Naniwa throws down expo. Sen droning hard. ~5:30
4 phoenix for Naniwa. A bunch of slings for Sen. Lair up and spire going down for Sen. Looks like previous game... Queens getting sniped! ~8:30
Phoenixes being SO ANNOYING. Overlords getting sniped, same with queens! Naniwa is in such a good position! Still just 4 phoenix but soooo good. Robo going down. ~10:00
Corruptors finally out for Sen. Phoenixes pulling back. Robo bay going down, colossus coming out soon. 8 Mutalisks out . Decent-sized Protoss army (stalker/ sentry/ zealot/ one immortal). About 20 ground units there. ~12:30
Sen doing a little harrassment with his mutas/ corruptors, and takes out the phoenixes! Getting back into the game and has a slightly better economy than Naniwa. Third base going up for Naniwa. Third has been up for Sen for a while.
Time for Naniwa to push! NANIWA LOSES EVERYTHING TO MUTAS. ~15:00
On March 21 2011 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Naniwa in top left spot, Sen in bottom left spot.
Naniwa pauses because it's laggy for him.
(Lag is fixed.)
Pool first for Sen, then hatchery. Gateway for Naniwa, then cyber core. Looking to wall himself. Very standard. Double gas
~3:30
Stargate goes down for Naniwa. 1 gas for Sen. ~5:00
Naniwa throws down expo. Sen droning hard. ~5:30
4 phoenix for Naniwa. A bunch of slings for Sen. Lair up and spire going down for Sen. Looks like previous game... Queens getting sniped! ~8:30
Phoenixes being SO ANNOYING. Overlords getting sniped, same with queens! Naniwa is in such a good position! Still just 4 phoenix but soooo good. Robo going down. ~10:00
Corruptors finally out for Sen. Phoenixes pulling back. Robo bay going down, colossus coming out soon. 8 Mutalisks out . Decent-sized Protoss army (stalker/ sentry/ zealot/ one immortal). About 20 ground units there. ~12:30
Sen doing a little harrassment with his mutas/ corruptors, and takes out the phoenixes! Getting back into the game and has a slightly better economy than Naniwa. Third base going up for Naniwa. Third has been up for Sen for a while.
Time for Naniwa to push! NANIWA LOSES EVERYTHING TO MUTAS. ~15:00
SO MANY MUTAS RAVAGING NANIWA!!! ~16:00
GG!!!!!!
In the engagement where Naniwa pushed, he attacked in a poor position and didn't use forcefields properly. He got completely surrounded by some Zerg ground units and got leveled by mutalisks. Sen flew into Naniwa's base and immediately won.
Congratulations Sen, nice casting by iNcontroL and Gretorp too. A great night for StarCraft 2, thanks for the tournament GosuCoaching and + Show Spoiler +
Gratz to Fnatic! Awesome, awesome final series. Very cool to see a zvp going to the final game in a bo5! Really great play by Nani and absolutely stellar play from Sen. GG!
On March 21 2011 07:32 KDN wrote: I feel bad for the NASL investors if this is an indication of the production.
maybe now people won't QQ as hard about replays o/
I was more thinking about the commentary and the trash talk. I think casting from replays is the absolute best solution, and maybe even not do it live so you can up the production.
Awh, I just feel bad for Naniwa to be honest. So hard to be happy for the winner in team tournies like this cause I know from experience how terrible it feels loosing for your team.
Meh those phoenixes didnt really do alot of dmg. I can tell you from experience whenever i see those -5 phoenixes and they decide to go for ovies/queens im happy just rebuilding them while droning and usually you come out atleast even. He cant push having invested that much money into the stargate and you lost only minerals with as we all know isnt really that big of a deal when the zerg didnt loose any drones.
On March 21 2011 07:51 ssregitoss wrote: sen lost 2 queens and lots of overlords how he survived i dont understand.in bw this is imposibble.
Because his opponent then transitioned into useless tech and didn't do any additional harass. Immortals and a robotics bay vs ling mutalisk?
Also while Sen lost a lot of queens, he didn't waste money on useless tech (e.g. hydra den), and he didn't lose GAS, he only lost minerals. He also had more drones than there were probes, and no pressure was put on beyond the phoenix, so he was basically left alone apart from the phoenix.
Yes, killing queens and overlords is damaging, but Sen was always ahead in drone count, didn't lose anything valuable (things which use gas) and was then able to kill the hard counter to his tech choice (phoenix vs mutalisk), following a really bad protoss tech choice (immortals and a robotics bay) and a lack of continued stargate production.
Then there was the mis-micro at the end with forcefields, and it was easy to survive.
On March 21 2011 07:51 Krikan wrote: Awh, I just feel bad for Naniwa to be honest. So hard to be happy for the winner in team tournies like this cause I know from experience how terrible it feels loosing for your team.
Considering Naniwa won several aces for Dignitas already, including defeating Idra 2-1, and closing the series 2-3 against Sen, I don't think he'll be *too* upset although he is known to rage so who knows
Anyways, Sen has done for Fnatic what Idra could not do for EG - defeat Naniwa, who is probably one of the best PvZ if not the best PvZ in the foreigner's scene, at a time when Protoss is dominating Zerg left and right. Truly amazing play even if Naniwa didn't play perfectly. Sen has shown why Fnatic put their trust in him.
On March 21 2011 07:53 Butcherski wrote: Meh those phoenixes didnt really do alot of dmg. I can tell you from experience whenever i see those -5 phoenixes and they decide to go for ovies/queens im happy just rebuilding them while droning and usually you come out atleast even. He cant push having invested that much money into the stargate and you lost only minerals with as we all know isnt really that big of a deal when the zerg didnt loose any drones.
Awesome play by sen btw.
this is EXACTLY what's on Sen's mind. He has been telling me about how happy he is when protoss goes phoenix build and aims for his overlords and queens so he can comfortably pumping drone and overrun people with his strong mechanics. SEn's GSL debut game 2 anyone?
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Well, IdrA lost to Naniwa in the same situation.. didn't he? Anyway, congrats Fnatic .. thought Sen had lost the game after that early Phoenix play from Naniwa
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Well, IdrA lost to Naniwa in the same situation.. didn't he? Anyway, congrats Fnatic .. thought Sen had lost the game after that early Phoenix play from Naniwa
Yes...and that doesnt really mean much since it's a sample size of matches against one other player. Dont see the logic there.
While Idra is really good, I can't help but feel that outcome would've been to dignitas' favour if Idra played that ace instead of Sen. They're both amazing players in their own right though.
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
well i think Idra is still little better at this point.
judging by the games i've seen from both last week sen currently seems to be ahead. (beating sjow, nani, fenix, xiaot while idra lost to kiwikaki, minigun, drewbie, nani and moman)
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
well i think Idra is still little better at this point.
Idra is (or at least was) better at ZvZ, but Sen has not given up on ZvP which I feel like Idra has, and is probably the only Zerg who's still doing really, really well against top Protoss players though you can tell it's an uphill battle each game.
They have different styles for sure, but Sen exploits hole in his opponent's play much better than Idra does. Idra prepares each time to face an opponent that he thinks will make no mistakes and therefore often loses because his opponents get over-greedy or over-allin. Sen, by contrast, plays with the expectation that there will be an opening - and exploits it better than any other Zerg I've seen.
And really, Sen's games are more exciting because he actually attacks. That's what counts
On March 21 2011 08:06 SeraKuDA wrote: Lots of people just have a hard time accepting the fact that Idra somehow isn't the best player.
just better than sen is all. Idra has shown that in the highest profile tourney in the world which is what matters most imo. Just a difference of opinion.
On March 21 2011 07:51 ssregitoss wrote: sen lost 2 queens and lots of overlords how he survived i dont understand.in bw this is imposibble.
Because his opponent then transitioned into useless tech and didn't do any additional harass. Immortals and a robotics bay vs ling mutalisk?
Also while Sen lost a lot of queens, he didn't waste money on useless tech (e.g. hydra den), and he didn't lose GAS, he only lost minerals. He also had more drones than there were probes, and no pressure was put on beyond the phoenix, so he was basically left alone apart from the phoenix.
Yes, killing queens and overlords is damaging, but Sen was always ahead in drone count, didn't lose anything valuable (things which use gas) and was then able to kill the hard counter to his tech choice (phoenix vs mutalisk), following a really bad protoss tech choice (immortals and a robotics bay) and a lack of continued stargate production.
Then there was the mis-micro at the end with forcefields, and it was easy to survive.
Spot on! Sen went for the very strong, mineral heavy econ opening. Losing about 1k minerals in queens, ovies, spores to the phoenix harass was definitely damaging to Sen, but obviously not enough to cost him the game. I think if Naniwa mixed in some voids it might have been a bit of a different story. Additionally, Sen lost zero drones through that whole process despite the phoenixes having enough energy to do some drone harass.
Sen completely was able to equalize the game when his muta/corruptor mix harassed Naniwa's nat and was able to kill 5-6 probes, the phoenixes and force cannons. Naniwa then attacked at probably the worst possible time -- 3rd base up but no probes there, robo bay + 2 immortals for no reason -- and didn't get off any good FFs. He could have attacked earlier before the spine crawlers + zerglings got out of control, or potentially saturated his third and got some HTs. But the attack that he did obviously proved to be quite poor.
On March 21 2011 08:00 Callous wrote: While Idra is really good, I can't help but feel that outcome would've been to dignitas' favour if Idra played that ace instead of Sen. They're both amazing players in their own right though.
I agree, sort of... but only because IdrA seems to be a bit more predictable than Sen. Besides that, it's really senseless to apply transitive relations to find out who is the better zerg between, say IdrA, Sen and probably Dimaga.. playing styles, bos, maps and even spawning positions play a much larger role in the outcome of a match when skillsets are somewhat comparable.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
He played in only one GSL whereas Idra has played in several. In the one GSL he played in he was solidly within Code A, and as we have seen lately there are many Code A players who are fully capable of giving Code S players a run for their money. GSL has a lot of randomness so it's not the case that a player who has made it further in the GSL is automatically better (or else TSL_Rain would be one of the best players ever), not to mention Idra since he came back from the GSL hasn't looked as deadly as he was - though I suspect some of that is balance psychology.
Keep in mind that Sen is an university student, not a full-time pro-gamer. He doesn't attend nearly the same number of tournaments that IdrA does and likely has periods when he doesn't practice nearly as much. This shows in some of Sen's games as he looked a lot weaker a few months ago than he does now.
To say that Idra is definitely better than Sen is to forget that their BW careers were quite close, if not in favor of Sen. Idra gets A LOT of cred (and deserving cred) for going to Korea and competing there for BW. But Sen actually dominated the foreigner's scene for BW for at least a year and he came out on top of Idra in the TSL 2.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
lol sen played 1 gsl. (season 3) He lost to nestea in the ro32. (who was the defending champion) Sen was invited by gom for code A qualifiers but since he is still attending university he chose not to go to korea.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
1. He barely lost to IMNestea in Ro of 32.. IdrA would have almost certainly lost that match too BTW. 2. He attends school in and probably makes good money in Taiwan, where SC2 is a televised sport. He had little reason to move to Korea, and thus he only played in one GSL, whereas IdrA played in all of them.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
1. He barely lost to IMNestea in Ro of 32.. IdrA would have almost certainly lost that match too BTW. 2. He attends school in and probably makes good money in Taiwan, where SC2 is a televised sport. He had little reason to move to Korea, and thus he only played in one GSL, whereas IdrA played in all of them.
Ah yes, how could I forget that he lost to Nestea. Sheesh. It's simply not valid to bring up GSL results without looking at them closely.
IMO, Sen and Idra are around the same level overall, but have slightly different match-up advantages. Idra is slightly better in ZvZ and Sen is slightly better in ZvP. ZvT I think they're about comparable though we'll see how Sen plays vs. Boxer.
Sen has always been one of the top 3 foreigner zerg. I don't think you can say him >IdrA or IdrA< him simply because he doesn't play in that many tournaments
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:18 Numy wrote: Freaking awesome sounding series. Thank you very much DarkPlasmaBall. Also Fnatic and Dignitas for giving some sick sick games.
On a side note, so sad not to see Naniwa in TSL, he is just so freaking good.
Glad I could help It's very tough to watch and write at the same time, so I hope my LR wasn't too ambiguous ^^
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Well, he's the worst in that company which is no small feat, at least in terms of accomplishments so far. He has a good chance to change that perception in the TSL though.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Tyler is raping so far in the TSL3 and HuK played like crap.
So take that into consideration when making your rankings. That being said, everyone seems to be using ridiculously small sample sizes when creating their arbitrary rankings of two or three players (A beat B in one game or one Bo3, so A is better!).
You guys should just try to stop comparing them, and just realize that they'd all beat you
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:47 Asha` wrote: Ouch, Nani missed a forcefield by about a grid and just got wrapped up by lings
GG's
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Tyler is raping so far in the TSL3 and HuK played like crap.
So take that into consideration when making your rankings. That being said, everyone seems to be using ridiculously small sample sizes when creating their arbitrary rankings of two or three players (A beat B in one game or one Bo3, so A is better!).
You guys should just try to stop comparing them, and just realize that they'd all beat you
You can't use tsl 3 1st round as an example, since Huk had to play the coin flip pvp matchup and got cheesed out while tyler got to play a guy who let 1 zealot kill 23 scvs. Huk is also code s and has won a mlg. Any objective measure and huk comes up on top over tyler.
On March 21 2011 08:22 Azarkon wrote: ZvT I think they're about comparable though we'll see how Sen plays vs. Boxer.
BoxeR is the second lowest person on the entire ELO ranking of all Koreans vZ. Beating BoxeR as Zerg is not impressive
Boxer is probably practicing a lot harder for the TSL than you imagine. He seems to see himself as the ambassador of Korean SC 2 to the foreigner's scene so this isn't just some random tournament for him.
That being said, Boxer definitely will have an uphill battle against SEn, esp. at this state. In fact, dare I say that Boxer is the underdog in this match up. Right not SEn and Jinro is probably the only non-Korean that have a good shot at winning the whole thing. (cause you know, only those 2 had the slightest chance of beating MC)
Sen, has been one of the (if not the) best foreigner zerg in BW, (him or Mondragon).. Sen has always been very solid mechanically, but very strategic and able to ADJUST in the middle of series. You will never see Sen do the same build for 20+ games in a row.
Like people said, Sen went to school, and also didnt want to live in Korea. So thats why he hasnt played in much tourneys like the GSL (other than losing to Nestea, the best zerg in the world) .. Sen is a lot like Mondragon, an insanely talented player who has that "special talent" that someone practicing 12 hours just cant learn in "decision making".. yet they suffer from not practicing enough to stay in top shape.
This "skill".. combined with top notch Code S++ mechanics, is what makes a Flash or Jaedong. You can't have ONLY solid mechanics and expect to win the top tournaments in the world, because people will change the metagame on you so much it'll throw you completely off, and when you work on a rigid strategy and cant adjust, you get owned like MC did to July. (DT into 6gate push, 99% nexus cancel 4gate)
To play zerg, you need to have the "zerg sense". Thats why I dont think Idra should play zerg, he plays like a terran, sitting in his base waiting for the action to come to him. Zerg's biggest advantage is their mobility, and any zerg from BW knows that you can NEVER expect to win a battle head on, you have to just send waves and waves at different locations until the opponent is so picked apart and thin, you can eventually run them over. Idra plays zerg as if its BW terran, he sits back gets his 200/200 army then expects to steamroll everyone, but clearly that wont work with zerg. Then he goes and makes videos how Collosus' are imbalanced. lol.
To play zerg takes a whole different mindset. You have to be very opportunistic, and make the most out of the little timing windows that close shortly, such as Sen's muta harass on Nani's probes, he only killed like 4 probes but it forced Nani to overreact with his phoenix's and run them too close, for the corrs to take them out. After that, Sen gained map control, solely because those phoenix were taken out. From that point on, Sen knew that Nani was in "desperation mode", and built 5 spine crawlers (the proper response to knowing protoss is pushing; July take notes).. Nani had one chance, or risk having Sen take the whole map in expos and go into the long macro game (and with a zerg like Sen, you dont want to)
That small window of time when Sen sent those mutas, opened up the whole game for him. If he was Idra, first off, he would of went roach/hydra (Muta vs Phoenix?? No way!) and he wouldnt of tried any drops or anything, instead he would of tried to just build a 200/200 army. That would mean Nani still had map control, and not be under any pressure. He would be free to get his 4th, and as you know if Protoss gets his 4th secured, its almost gameover.
Anyways, my point being, Sen is on a whole nother level in terms of "decision making", and when you play Zerg, that is the race that requires intelligent strategy the most because those small windows of opportunity are what you need to win the game, the less you create for yourself, the less chance you have of winning.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote: [quote]
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Tyler is raping so far in the TSL3 and HuK played like crap.
So take that into consideration when making your rankings. That being said, everyone seems to be using ridiculously small sample sizes when creating their arbitrary rankings of two or three players (A beat B in one game or one Bo3, so A is better!).
You guys should just try to stop comparing them, and just realize that they'd all beat you
You can't use tsl 3 1st round as an example, since Huk had to play the coin flip pvp matchup and got cheesed out while tyler got to play a guy who let 1 zealot kill 23 scvs.
...HuK didn't get "cheesed out by coinflip PvP". Did you watch the games?
First game, he threw away unit after unit with terrible control and being overly aggressive, while Hasu had amazing blink play. No cheese at all. Second game, HuK won by having a larger army because he had a second robo and Hasu went for a third base that he couldn't capitalize on. HuK played better overall here. Third game, HuK didn't scout his own base within the first six minutes of the game. Biggest noob move ever. If he's not going to do that, then he deserved to get proxied. There was no coinflip anything. Hasu outplayed him immensely.
I like HuK, but he was not impressive during the TSL3. Not in the slightest.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote: [quote] Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Tyler is raping so far in the TSL3 and HuK played like crap.
So take that into consideration when making your rankings. That being said, everyone seems to be using ridiculously small sample sizes when creating their arbitrary rankings of two or three players (A beat B in one game or one Bo3, so A is better!).
You guys should just try to stop comparing them, and just realize that they'd all beat you
You can't use tsl 3 1st round as an example, since Huk had to play the coin flip pvp matchup and got cheesed out while tyler got to play a guy who let 1 zealot kill 23 scvs.
...HuK didn't get "cheesed out by coinflip PvP". Did you watch the games?
First game, he threw away unit after unit with terrible control and being overly aggressive, while Hasu had amazing blink play. No cheese at all. Second game, HuK won by having a larger army because he had a second robo and Hasu went for a third base that he couldn't capitalize on. HuK played better overall here. Third game, HuK didn't scout his own base within the first six minutes of the game. Biggest noob move ever. If he's not going to do that, then he deserved to get proxied. There was no coinflip anything. Hasu outplayed him immensely.
I like HuK, but he was not impressive during the TSL3. Not in the slightest.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:49 Skyze wrote: [quote]
Sen is the best foreigner zerg, by far.. so not surprised at all he won this
Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
Tyler is definitely not dead last on the TL list. He has the potential to be one of the strongest Protoss players in the world and like Sen was a BW monster. It's just a matter of how much he cares/practices. Tyler, lest we forget, wants to have his cake (marriage, family, a life ) and eat it too (win large SC 2 tournaments). That leads to certain choices in the way he plays - ie more targeted towards the opponent and less targeted towards being solid against all random builds.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote: [quote] Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
This. HuK getting Code S is such a dumb excuse. He beat some terrible zerg player, and then barely beat a mediocre zerg. And then he goes up against a Code S quality player and gets rolled. And then he beats Choya with a few lucky build order wins, after going 0-2 to Inca.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Tyler is raping so far in the TSL3 and HuK played like crap.
So take that into consideration when making your rankings. That being said, everyone seems to be using ridiculously small sample sizes when creating their arbitrary rankings of two or three players (A beat B in one game or one Bo3, so A is better!).
You guys should just try to stop comparing them, and just realize that they'd all beat you
You can't use tsl 3 1st round as an example, since Huk had to play the coin flip pvp matchup and got cheesed out while tyler got to play a guy who let 1 zealot kill 23 scvs.
...HuK didn't get "cheesed out by coinflip PvP". Did you watch the games?
First game, he threw away unit after unit with terrible control and being overly aggressive, while Hasu had amazing blink play. No cheese at all. Second game, HuK won by having a larger army because he had a second robo and Hasu went for a third base that he couldn't capitalize on. HuK played better overall here. Third game, HuK didn't scout his own base within the first six minutes of the game. Biggest noob move ever. If he's not going to do that, then he deserved to get proxied. There was no coinflip anything. Hasu outplayed him immensely.
I like HuK, but he was not impressive during the TSL3. Not in the slightest.
Yes, that was cheese, but for HuK to allow that to go down and actually be effective was completely HuK's fault. No scouting from HuK, and Hasu didn't even try to proxy at the very beginning of the game. Any Protoss player should know to scout their base for proxies in a PvP, and there's no one to blame but HuK. If he had played correctly, it would have failed. There was no coinflip involved. If HuK had played competently, he would have spotted a pylon in his base. It's inexcusable. That's not what the best of the best falls to.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote: [quote] Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
Ret in his Assembly interview and Tyler in his NASL application both implied that Huk was the better player. Ret said Huk was the favorite of the tournie while Tyler acknowledges Huk as the best toss in NA. This is all straight from their mouths and not those of observers.
Assuming the rankings are based on tournament results, having Jinro and Huk at the top is nothing out of the ordinary with their tournament results. Ret definitely follows close with his win at Assembly, and TLO with his win over Sjow in that tournament (forgot the tournament where he got first) is around there as well. Haypro and Tyler have not won anything big in SC2 yet like the previous players and having Haypro over Tyler due to the Liquid-house tournament seems fair.
Also, people seem to forget that Sen played quite well vs Nestea (the Z closest to beating Nestea in ZvZ so far), having the lead both games but fumbling it near the end. This happens quite often with Sen from watching his games where he has this weird of habit of all-inning near the end to try and end the game when he has a lead. Glad to see Sen is in excellent condition as well. Haven't seem him play like this since beta/early release.
On March 21 2011 08:54 Azarkon wrote: Tyler is definitely not dead last on the TL list. He has the potential to be one of the strongest players in TL and like Sen was a BW monster. It's just a matter of how much he cares/practices. Tyler, lest we forget, wants to have his cake (marriage, family, a life ) and eat it too (win large SC 2 tournaments).
If we were discussing potential, then absolutely.. Tyler would be up there.. but we are discussing actual tournament results -- the only objective measure that one can apply .. really -- and frankly, I don't recall Tyler getting to a top 4 finish in any important tournament in the past year.
On March 21 2011 08:58 phisku wrote: so this is the GCPL thread right?
KAWAII SO HANDSOME, showed thoses toss who is the boss ( muhahaha i'm so founny )
Hahah, yeah this got out of hand.. Kawaii winning his match was actually the crucial moment in this series, as most -- including himself -- had him losing v P.
On March 21 2011 08:12 GenoZStriker wrote: Thread successfully derailed by retards. Check!
GG's fnatic, close series. Impressive number of viewers (10K) despite TSL being on. Can't wait if there is another series.
standard tl posters, did u expect anything else?
It's the standard across the internet for people to speak their minds, here is no different (albeit moderation here is firm and abundant). Nice to see you posting like you are somehow above the community though.
On March 21 2011 08:12 GenoZStriker wrote: Thread successfully derailed by retards. Check!
GG's fnatic, close series. Impressive number of viewers (10K) despite TSL being on. Can't wait if there is another series.
I don't think "despite TSL being on" is the best way to put it. TSL finished for the day when game 2 of sen vs naniwa was starting, and there was something like more than double the normal number of people browsing TL, and GCPL's numbers shot up toward the end. Unfortunately GCPL got robbed of seeing how many viewers they could have gotten under normal conditions.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
This. HuK getting Code S is such a dumb excuse. He beat some terrible zerg player, and then barely beat a mediocre zerg. And then he goes up against a Code S quality player and gets rolled. And then he beats Choya with a few lucky build order wins, after going 0-2 to Inca.
Inca's the best PvPer in Korea. MC and Huk have both said this before.
Huk is still a very strong player. He ladders against top tier players and beats them. He's in code S, and you guys mock him for that (?) but he had to go through ST and TSL players to get there.
He's a very strong player. That said, I still think Jinro is TL's ace, or Tyler if he prepares specifically for the ace game.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote: [quote] LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
This. HuK getting Code S is such a dumb excuse. He beat some terrible zerg player, and then barely beat a mediocre zerg. And then he goes up against a Code S quality player and gets rolled. And then he beats Choya with a few lucky build order wins, after going 0-2 to Inca.
Inca's the best PvPer in Korea. MC and Huk have both said this before.
Huk is still a very strong player. He ladders against top tier players and beats them. He's in code S, and you guys mock him for that (?) but he had to go through ST and TSL players to get there.
He's a very strong player. That said, I still think Jinro is TL's ace, or Tyler if he prepares specifically for the ace game.
Holy shit get out of this thread!? This is the GCPL thread which has absolutely nothing to do with Inca's PvP, MC, HuK, Code S or Code A..
Big congratulations to Fnatic! It was such an exciting war - Sen demonstrated again just how beastly he is Xeris must be a happy man :p
Congrats to dignitas for making it this far and putting on a great show
On March 21 2011 08:12 GenoZStriker wrote: Thread successfully derailed by retards. Check!
GG's fnatic, close series. Impressive number of viewers (10K) despite TSL being on. Can't wait if there is another series.
standard tl posters, did u expect anything else?
It's the standard across the internet for people to speak their minds, here is no different (albeit moderation here is firm and abundant). Nice to see you posting like you are somehow above the community though.
The beauty of TL is that it has always prided itself on enforcing a higher standard than "just some other internet forum" .. I would imagine someone like TT1 has more respect than the average person in the community; thereby his frustration in his post is more than warranted.
Holy crap, Sen is playing like he was in the beta. Naniwa has the best zvp outside of korea beating idra 2-1 and beating Morrow convincingly 4-2. And now here comes sen 2-0ing fenix, 2-1ing sjow and then 3-2ing Naniwa. Sick stuff, I can't wait to watch these games. VODs are up already.
ETA: Gretop please improve your obsing. It was so frustrating that you pretty much clicked on a single building of one of the players the entire game and STUCK with it.... Click on different things, the units, both players' stuff. I want to know what the upgrades are, I wanna know how the players use their hotkeys, if the zerg is saving up money for certain tech, and I want to see how well each players are keeping their minerals and gases down.
Monster play by Sen! He's got to feel great after this and his *cough cough* other recent wins. Thanks GosuCoaching for hosting the league and I hope to see more from you guys in the future!
Maaaaaan! After that sick phoenix harass i was sure Nani was going to take it, so i went to bed angry as hell. Now i see that Sen turned it around and i'm like O.O!
"Yo people who actually care about the GCPL Grand Final, I'm really happy for you and all, and...
I'ma let you finish, but IdrA is one of the best Zergs of all time. I'ma let you finish, but MC is one of the best Protosses of all time. I'ma let you finish, but Tyler has some of the most potential of all time. I'ma let you finish, but Huk has some of the best control of all time."
Guess what? Irrelevant. Sen's a baller, and he's actually a part of this thread. Congratulations to Fnatic
On March 21 2011 12:19 Warrior Madness wrote: ETA: Gretop please improve your obsing. It was so frustrating that you pretty much clicked on a single building of one of the players the entire game and STUCK with it.... Click on different things, the units, both players' stuff. I want to know what the upgrades are, I wanna know how the players use their hotkeys, if the zerg is saving up money for certain tech, and I want to see how well each players are keeping their minerals and gases down.
The camera work was not done by recording Gretorp's screen and rather by following him in obs mode. This way you never see what he actually clicks, only where he is looking. And yes it was annoying as hell and this way of obsing should be avoided.
On March 21 2011 08:07 Skyze wrote: Anyone arguing Idra is better than Sen... is biased as hell, or just stuck in the past .. Hell, I think Sen was even better in BW.
Lets face it, if Sen was more known in the spotlight, it wouldnt even be a debate. In terms of SKILL and TALENT.. Sen is miles ahead of Idra.
Then why hasnt he been able to stick as well in the GSL? It's a valid question.
Huh sen only played in 1 gsl and lost to nestea in r32. No shame in losing a zvz to nestea. Sen just didn't want to stay in korea long term to compete in more gsl. You can't just use how far someone went in gsl as a measuring stick without any context, otherwise you will have to argue that anypro prime is one of the best for making top 4. Plus you already saw how many people talked crap about july and he made the finals. Rain also made a gsl finals.
On March 21 2011 08:03 Serpico wrote:
On March 21 2011 08:03 Kazzabiss wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:56 bkrow wrote: [quote] Lol - IdrA?
Sen is better than idra.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
He also thinks huk is liquid's second best player.
Huk is the 2nd best liquid player.
My liquid rankings would go like this.
Jinro Huk Ret Tlo Haypro Tyler
Haha, this can't be serious. If it is, it should be ban worthy. Tyler as the worst, really?
Haypro beat tyler in the pax liquid tourney and in a zvp I might add. Don't see anything wrong with my rankings.
Yeah and Tyler beat Jinro, and Haypro beat TLO. It doesn't prove anything.
Jinro is bad at tvp at the moment. Plus if you want to switch tlo and haypro around, I don't have an issue with that. Either way, tyler is still 6th in that group.
Honestly, it goes Jinro, Ret and Tyler being the top 3 and the others being a fraction below them. Huk's GSL run was nothing remarkable, dunno if he was playing nervous or something but his games didn't really showcase anything special. He got into Code S from PvP too, which is a coinflip (as we saw today in the tsl3). Tyler is up there, but he hasn't had a tournament really showcase how good he is, but I'm almost certain he's a better player than Huk is.
Disagree. HuK Jinro Ret Haypro Tyler TLO
HuK would beat any liquid member in a bo7 fo' realz. His GSL run doesn't serve him justice. Code A's not easy. TLO's mini-slumping. Jinro's having to re-evaluate his play once again. Ret loses motivation. Haypro's a secret mothereffn killah. Tyler has potential.
On topic..
Congratulations to both teams. The finals were close. Sad to see Naniwa go down (seriously feel he's the best player in Europe atm) but also glad to see Sen has somewhat returned to form. Kid was sick during beta & so I'm hoping he continues his run & does well in TSL.
Starcraft has been great these past few days... Thanks.
On March 21 2011 12:19 Warrior Madness wrote: ETA: Gretop please improve your obsing. It was so frustrating that you pretty much clicked on a single building of one of the players the entire game and STUCK with it.... Click on different things, the units, both players' stuff. I want to know what the upgrades are, I wanna know how the players use their hotkeys, if the zerg is saving up money for certain tech, and I want to see how well each players are keeping their minerals and gases down.
The camera work was not done by recording Gretorp's screen and rather by following him in obs mode. This way you never see what he actually clicks, only where he is looking. And yes it was annoying as hell and this way of obsing should be avoided.
You can actually see what the one you are following is clicking on, you just have to press escape when you are following his camera and you will also see everything he clicks on. If you are streaming while following a player i think that is a must to know and do, it sucks to not see any upgrades or anything.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gosucoaching.com/sites/default/files/resize/imagecache/standardpage_large/Web-Overlay_1-565x202.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fnatic.com/filestorage/imageupload/cxNSdBsGbniqkRQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/us.gif)
FnaticMSI vs ![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/eu.gif)
Dignitas
FnaticMSI.Sen <Shakuras> 
dSjoW
dBischu
![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2a8romg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/2dvsjvc.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +
! 
FnaticMSI.Sen <Shakuras> 
dSjoW
dBischu
FnaticMSI.Sen <Shakuras> 
dSjoW
dBischu
