also, I think the reason why he attacked into that is because he would have the high ground so that infestors could actually get into range to neural parasite
GG Really classy Infestor play by Golden, some great fungal growths on marines, some pretty awesome neural parasite on tanks and vikings. THEN Golden threw his lead away by not doing anything and lost. Sad.
HQ stream is really solid here. I'm a bit curious how much it costs to repair the bunker like that constantly. Is it viable for a long time? I suppose it is.
Golden played that completely wrong, in that situation all you have to do as zerg is continue to mass zergling + baneling + roach, not go for some horrible charge up the ramp
Shocked that Golden lost this...it seemed like he really wanted to go baneling carpet bombing...even though he shoulda just won after that first big engagment and he goes "NO! I must baneling carpet bomb just like fruitdealer and show I'm a baller!" and he forgets to secure more bases...
I think they are playing Code A matches today to make up for the first Sunday where there were only Code S matches. Code A was one day behind but now they will be back to even.
I really like these Code A guys. They seem so innocent. I don't really like those cocky attitudes in interviews. I know I'm probably alone, but I find it refreshing .
On January 08 2011 14:54 Befree wrote: I really like these Code A guys. They seem so innocent. I don't really like those cocky attitudes in interviews. I know I'm probably alone, but I find it refreshing .
I don't know, saying "I've never lost using this build on this map" isn't cocky at all... </sarcasm>
Knocking down the wall was such a terrible idea. Really liking those camera rotations by the observer. I don't know if that's something the Korean observer showed him. It can really add to the fights when it's not overdone. You can get a better view of the battle when they are in an odd position.
The obs did the camera angle change a couple of times yesterday (always during battles). Its actually pretty slick, enables you see see whats happening
Now that Tasteless doesn't have to observe, his analytical skills are really coming to the fore. Props for having a dedicated observer on the english stream, GOM! It only took a week, and already both the observing and analysis is better than it ever could have been with just one person.
I don't understand why at the end sangho didn't engage in the choke of the bridge and split the army with forcefields on it, would have probably allowed him to withstand that attack at least.
Great game, why the hell did they have to take Shakuras out of the ladder map pool?
Also I can't help but feel that Sang Ho's build is just plain flimsy. He hung on by a thread while he was on 2 base getting colossus. He only won because he played like a hero and Sync never emp'd those Phoenix.
On January 08 2011 15:30 Aquafresh wrote: Great game, why the hell did they have to take Shakuras out of the ladder map pool?
Also I can't help but feel that Sang Ho's build is just plain flimsy. He hung on by a thread while he was on 2 base getting colossus. He only won because he played like a hero and Sync never emp'd those Phoenix.
They took Shakuras out because of the invisible pylon bug. They will presumably return it to the pool when it is fixed.
u cant go fast templar tech cos u need collossus to prevent kiting. no thermal lance, terran jcan just kite all ur storms and stomp you into the ground
On January 08 2011 15:30 Aquafresh wrote: Great game, why the hell did they have to take Shakuras out of the ladder map pool?
Also I can't help but feel that Sang Ho's build is just plain flimsy. He hung on by a thread while he was on 2 base getting colossus. He only won because he played like a hero and Sync never emp'd those Phoenix.
They took it out of the ladder pool right now because of the pylon bug im sure it will return once fixed....
On January 08 2011 15:30 Aquafresh wrote: Great game, why the hell did they have to take Shakuras out of the ladder map pool?
Also I can't help but feel that Sang Ho's build is just plain flimsy. He hung on by a thread while he was on 2 base getting colossus. He only won because he played like a hero and Sync never emp'd those Phoenix.
They took it out of the ladder pool right now because of the pylon bug im sure it will return once fixed....
it's pretty ridiculous that Blizzard hasn't fixed it yet. then again Blizzard's attitude toward maps is crap.
Good work from SangHo. Wasn't actually all that impressed by his play though, thought he was better than that. Maybe it was just an off day or something.
On January 08 2011 15:40 koppik wrote: Man, I really feel like Gilja outplayed Killer. Just a couple bad mistakes from Gilja gave him the series.
I don't know about that, Sang Ho's build in game 3 was just better than Gilja's
In game 3? No way, man. Gilja made a micro error and lost his timing window, which was golden.
It was the similar story in game 2. You can do a timing attack against phoenix/colossus, you can build thors, or can land emps on the phoenixes. Gilja I guess tried to do the last but missed.
What a great day of Starcraft. NaDa and MC dominating earlier, Sang Ho coming through with some cool PvTs. Winners league kicked off with a marquee matchup with + Show Spoiler +
On January 08 2011 15:38 Skillz_Man wrote: WOW! How did Killer hold that off! Archons are really stronger than they look I think. Really nicely done.
The zealots had enough surface to hit and there was no space to kite and this is what happens when zealots can actually do stuff. Sadly archons are a lot weaker than they look.
On January 08 2011 15:38 Skillz_Man wrote: WOW! How did Killer hold that off! Archons are really stronger than they look I think. Really nicely done.
The zealots had enough surface to hit and there was no space to kite and this is what happens when zealots can actually do stuff. Sadly archons are a lot weaker than they look.
The archon kind of won that battle, I think. Since Gilja's units were clumped and in range of the archon, they were all taking full AoE damage from the archon. Archons may be weak, but not when they're hitting that many units at once. The zealots helped, but they were way outnumbered. It was like double the food in marine/marauders compared to zealots.
On January 08 2011 15:40 koppik wrote: Man, I really feel like Gilja outplayed Killer. Just a couple bad mistakes from Gilja gave him the series.
I don't know about that, Sang Ho's build in game 3 was just better than Gilja's
In game 3? No way, man. Gilja made a micro error and lost his timing window, which was golden.
Agreed, your army is made of more units as Terran vs. Protoss, its really vital to engineer and arc around the protoss army. Just overall nice play by Sangho, Dark Templar did enough damage that terran felt he needs to attack and do damage himself, but at the same time brought Sangho enough time to get Zealot Leg Speed. Lesson to be learnt, if you poke and the compositions/positions dont favour you particularly...change angle, wait and see if the other dude makes a mistake or just go home.
On January 08 2011 15:28 AndAgain wrote: Artosis is such a protoss noob. If SangHo had gotten HT before collosus, he would lose horribly.
Is Day9 a noob? he advises the same. And has much more experience playing Protoss.
Day9 hates really fast Colossus, I've never heard him say that you should get HT before Colossus.
hmmm, actually your right. Lately haven't herd him say that. However i do believe he was a fan of HTs and Gateway centric play around release.
Maybe he dropped the hts, in favor of the Adel Scott style of just mass well upgraded low tier gateway units.
From what I understand he does not hate collusus, just the style of collusus play where you cut a ton in favor of really fast collosus early off of two base.
Guys, really? If Day9 hates fast colossi that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Day9 is a good player, but he's not anywhere near as good as these GSL protosses nor is he heavily active in SC2 as a player. His opinions are based on his own experiences which I expect are far less diverse and numerous than Sang Ho's at least when it comes to SC2.
On January 08 2011 15:28 AndAgain wrote: Artosis is such a protoss noob. If SangHo had gotten HT before collosus, he would lose horribly.
Is Day9 a noob? he advises the same. And has much more experience playing Protoss.
Day9 hates really fast Colossus, I've never heard him say that you should get HT before Colossus.
hmmm, actually your right. Lately haven't herd him say that. However i do believe he was a fan of HTs and Gateway centric play around release.
Maybe he dropped the hts, in favor of the Adel Scott style of just mass well upgraded low tier gateway units.
He actually said that on last State of Game Podcast that he enjoys a heavy gateway unit army especially with armor upgrade (before attack upgrade) because he tends to be heavy on the zealot count and that he not really against colossi from 2 base but at he is against the old NEXGenius like type of fast expand straight into Robo Bay. He thinks you should delay the colossi to at least 110-120 food, so you can actually have a decent amount of gateway units to support you colossi.
On January 08 2011 15:51 hmunkey wrote: Guys, really? If Day9 hates fast colossi that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Day9 is a good player, but he's not anywhere near as good as these GSL protosses nor is he heavily active in SC2 as a player. His opinions are based on his own experiences which I expect are far less diverse and numerous than Sang Ho's at least when it comes to SC2.
Is a Football coach as good as Football player on execution of plays? Does that mean the Coach shouldnt be coaching or analyzing the football player's plays unless he is better than him?
We've seen far more colossi rush on GSL 1 and 2 than on 3. And on GSL 4 there is even less, unless im mistaken.
On January 08 2011 15:51 hmunkey wrote: Guys, really? If Day9 hates fast colossi that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Day9 is a good player, but he's not anywhere near as good as these GSL protosses nor is he heavily active in SC2 as a player. His opinions are based on his own experiences which I expect are far less diverse and numerous than Sang Ho's at least when it comes to SC2.
Is a Football coach as good as Football player on execution of plays? Does that mean the Coach shouldnt be coaching or analyzing the football player's plays unless he is better than him?
We've seen far more colossi rush on GSL 1 and 2 than on 3. And on GSL 4 there is even less, unless im mistaken.
I love these analogies. Take a second and think about how smart it is to compare football to RTS.
IIRC, Day9 hates the expo straight into robo bay. Sangho didn't get a robo bay that fast. He had a decent number of gateway units.
The fundamental thing that Day9 doesn't get is that you will simply get destroyed by marauders or roaches without colossi. Gateway units MUST be relatively cost ineffective pound for pound in order to compensate for the ability to warp them in. That's why colossi are so necessary.
If you can hold off a Bio attack by rushing Collossi .. then do it. Chances are you will have less gateway units and even 1 Collossi can be sniped by a group of stimmed bio. So there's this window that a Terran can capitalize on where the Protoss doesn't have a Collossus out yet. Refer to Inca vs Nada 3rd game on Lost Temple.
It's not because Day9 hates it that fast colossi is bad .. it's because making a robo and a robo bay + a collossus costs a leg and an arm and naked Collossi aren't very strong against Bio .. you still need a considerable amount of gateway units to hold off a Bio attack. In fact, a Bio attack can be held off by gateway units alone .. it's when the Terran reaches a critical mass + medivacs that splash damage is necessary. This is where Collossi or High Templar are needed.
The tech choice is up to the Protoss player and his personal play style. In the end what matters is timing and execution.
On January 08 2011 15:51 hmunkey wrote: Guys, really? If Day9 hates fast colossi that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Day9 is a good player, but he's not anywhere near as good as these GSL protosses nor is he heavily active in SC2 as a player. His opinions are based on his own experiences which I expect are far less diverse and numerous than Sang Ho's at least when it comes to SC2.
Is a Football coach as good as Football player on execution of plays? Does that mean the Coach shouldnt be coaching or analyzing the football player's plays unless he is better than him?
We've seen far more colossi rush on GSL 1 and 2 than on 3. And on GSL 4 there is even less, unless im mistaken.
I love these analogies. Take a second and think about how smart it is to compare football to RTS.
IIRC, Day9 hates the expo straight into robo bay. Sangho didn't get a robo bay that fast. He had a decent number of gateway units.
The fundamental thing that Day9 doesn't get is that you will simply get destroyed by marauders or roaches without colossi. Gateway units MUST be relatively cost ineffective pound for pound in order to compensate for the ability to warp them in. That's why colossi are so necessary.
It was only an analogy, i could have used is oGsTheWind as good player as oGsMC? But he stills his coach and analyze his plays, regardless of the difference of their current sucess as a player.
Also oGsMC held most of the Marauder pressure, including a Marineking proxy rax marauder rush with no colossi. So did several other protoss. Day9's statement about coolossi was purely based on how popular NEXGenius became a few months ago that was Gate->Core->Robo->Observer->2nd Gate->Nexus-> Robo Bay->Colossi Range. That was an extremely greedy and if the terran attacked you during the time your gateway unit count was low you were pretty much dead because you would have 1 coloissi and only a few gateway units.
And you can hold the terran opening pressure with 3 gate, just cannot break a heavy contain with that, but can hold pretty well if played defensively. So many tosses doing that lately on GSL Also i didnt compare Sang-Ho build with rushing to colossi, i didn't even mention his name on my post, just commented on the fact he doesn't actually need to be a better player to analyze the player's plays.
I'm so sick of hearing about what Day9 likes or doesn't like. He's got all you guys by the balls... He knows the game very well, but to think the guys word is is holy is retarded. He's transitioned from playing video games into making money off video games. A nerd's dream. Until I see him on the ladder smashing 2 base terran timing attacks with just zealots and stalkers(like he suggested in his protoss FE daily), I just laugh at him.
On January 08 2011 16:58 LynxKerr wrote: I'm so sick of hearing about what Day9 likes or doesn't like. He's got all you guys by the balls... He knows the game very well, but to think the guys word is is holy is retarded. He's transitioned from playing video games into making money off video games. A nerd's dream. Until I see him on the ladder smashing 2 base terran timing attacks with just zealots and stalkers(like he suggested in his protoss FE daily), I just laugh at him.
Well... it seems to be possible with good positioning and forcefields. Feels a little weak, to me, but so does the *really* fast colossus, so I think that personally I'm going to start getting charge pretty quickly. I think that'll make my life much easier.
For now, though, 2base colossus is still strong. 2base colossus/phoenix is very strong as well, against both zerg and terran. I don't think there's any arguing that. 2gates + colossus is always going to feel a little fragile, though, you know what I mean?
On January 08 2011 16:58 LynxKerr wrote: I'm so sick of hearing about what Day9 likes or doesn't like. He's got all you guys by the balls... He knows the game very well, but to think the guys word is is holy is retarded. He's transitioned from playing video games into making money off video games. A nerd's dream. Until I see him on the ladder smashing 2 base terran timing attacks with just zealots and stalkers(like he suggested in his protoss FE daily), I just laugh at him.
lol who the hell would think day9's word is holy. he's not even a progamer.
On January 08 2011 16:58 LynxKerr wrote: I'm so sick of hearing about what Day9 likes or doesn't like. He's got all you guys by the balls... He knows the game very well, but to think the guys word is is holy is retarded. He's transitioned from playing video games into making money off video games. A nerd's dream. Until I see him on the ladder smashing 2 base terran timing attacks with just zealots and stalkers(like he suggested in his protoss FE daily), I just laugh at him.
lol who the hell would think day9's word is holy. he's not even a progamer.
I'm sorry mate, but this comment is probably going to turn the thread into a huge flamefest because of what you said.
I haven't watched the games so I can't contribute to the discussion of the games today, but I just want to urge everyone below me to completely ignore the Day9 discussion comments
Starting from this line: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The games tonight were really sick. Combined with Huk's stream and Ace's games I'm inspired to start opening DT more often.
I love Sangho. I always feel my stomach churn when he goes 2star and makes a MILLION phoenixes rather than just enough to win the air war but then he wins and I'm just like "oh".
anyone think this is complete bull how they are changing times and changing the system, this is all complete idiocy. if it aint broken dont fix it. too many changes..
On January 08 2011 18:08 Slayer- wrote: anyone think this is complete bull how they are changing times and changing the system, this is all complete idiocy. if it aint broken dont fix it. too many changes..
It's not like this change of starting time came without warning. It was said on yesterdays stream and to be seen an team liquid. As for the change of the system you can't really say if that was smart yet. Especially when you are throwing words like "complete idiocy" instead of arguments.
On January 08 2011 18:08 Slayer- wrote: anyone think this is complete bull how they are changing times and changing the system, this is all complete idiocy. if it aint broken dont fix it. too many changes..
They aren't changing the times, just check the schedule. On certain days the time is different, is all.
This system was planned from the beginning, by the way. This is the first "real" GSL, the rest were just pre-season leagues. I don't think Gom has really adjusted anything format or time-wise.
the problem of nada is that he make always the same thing over and over again,he is not a creative player even in broodwar he was too repetitive, i like boxer more... and tanks are better than viking in tvp really....viking kill the colossus and than become useless, tanks instead, kill colossus and everything that the toss can have on ground...
On January 08 2011 18:08 Slayer- wrote: anyone think this is complete bull how they are changing times and changing the system, this is all complete idiocy. if it aint broken dont fix it. too many changes..
They also played the games early due to it being Saturday.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL4/GSL4MCwidebanner.jpg)
Bleach < Shakuras Plateau > 
Golden
SangHo
But yeah, I would pay money for a replay of Artosis destroying that mech/marine build on Shakuras.
.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pVTxl.gif)
