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On January 05 2011 22:16 Kawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 22:10 raidmaster wrote:On January 05 2011 22:07 FataLe wrote:On January 05 2011 21:59 raidmaster wrote:On January 05 2011 21:58 FataLe wrote:On January 05 2011 21:57 KonohaFlash wrote:On January 05 2011 21:56 Roggay wrote:On January 05 2011 21:53 KonohaFlash wrote:On January 05 2011 21:52 Kawamura wrote:On January 05 2011 21:51 raidmaster wrote:Nice cheese  Quit trolling, since when are DTs cheese? Your definition of trolling is completely wrong. Dt's that quickly are cheese. How is that even a debate? It is not, why are you arguing that, he expanded behind it and its not like it could go extremely wrong. Cheese is something that you can't fall back on if it is unsuccessful. Had Rain stopped the DT rush, Tester would have been behind and would lose. He expanded behind that because his Dt's wrecked Rain's economy+ Destroyed all his add-ons. No... even if he stopped damage at home that hardly puts Tester in a bad position. Rain cannot mount an attack until he gets a raven or waits for 100 energy. So what? Testes will already be way behind because he spent so much on useless units. Rain will produce more units and kill him. No... because Tester will have plenty of time to get his econ and real army up and running. Seriously I don't think you've seen a high level PvT lately. DT rushing isn't new and it's COMPLETELY viable. The Protoss is almost always ahead as the Protoss has an expo whereas the Terrans is delayed considerably. Delaying isn't really a problem if DT's do no damage. You just build units. Protoss can expand, but you will hit a timing when you have units and detection and toss has what? Expansions which has just been saturated (and you spend so much money to make it - even less units). Attack, gg. Think, then post. You should start thinking before you're posting really. You're sticking to the same invalid point all the time saying DTs are completely useless once T has detection. But the most important thing DTs do are to buy time, you fail to grasp this. With time the protoss can get his expansion up before the terran player putting him into a superior economical position. He can also get an army up in time because he has forced the terran to go through the hassle of getting all the detection and defense needed against DTs. It seems like you have very little understanding of the PvT matchup and very little experience playing it so I think you're the one who should stop posting about it until you wise up a little.
Exactly anyone saying DTs are cheese makes me think they don't even play let alone understand the game. Even if he scans you EACH scan is a loss of 270 minerals from a MULE, so each Dark Templar pays for itself increasingly so. If he builds something else to detect it screws up his build orders and costs money. Protoss can exploit DTs for map control even with detection since you can't have detection everywhere. oGsMC showed us this with 20+DT kills in late game vs Rain. Finally, it's sometimes advantageous to him scouting or at least revealing it with a few kills it makes him stay at home more while you FE freely without worry.
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On January 05 2011 22:32 noD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 22:19 Fa1nT wrote:
Choya feels he cannot lose to zerg?
Hope he plays idra or nestea -_- Hope he doesnt play Idra or he may get even more confident -.- not saying Idra is bad but Idra is like the most likely person in korea to fall to cheese...
Actually I'm fairly confident IdrA would destroy Choya, again. After all, he beat choya 2-0 in the gisado race wars.
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Ki Soo ^^
So happy to finally see him playing again, even if he did lose to a lesser protoss. Can't wait for him to play someone like Nestea or even Jinro.
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where's all this elitist crap come from where it says cheese is a bad thing?
pro gamers used cheese in broodwar all the time, in fact people were commended for being baller enough to attempt cheese. macro skill or not, if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose. just like you might be good in a straight up fight - but if you let your opponent catch you bending over with your pants down then you're not in any position to win.
the whole "omg you cheesed me, you suck!" mentality is like some spoiled kiddy view which i thought we'd grown out of bacl in 1998.
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On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
where's all this elitist crap come from where it says cheese is a bad thing?
pro gamers used cheese in broodwar all the time, in fact people were commended for being baller enough to attempt cheese. macro skill or not, if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose.
the whole "omg you cheesed me, you suck!" mentality is like some spoiled kiddy view which i thought we'd grown out of bacl in 1998.
Another excellent point. cheese is just part of the game but dts are not cheese. cannon rushes are cheese. 6 pooling are cheese. it's debatable if dts are even semi all ins.
I cringe when I hear artosis talk shit about cheese. Good players use cheese in repertoire and deal with cheese. It's part of being a successful pro.
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On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose.
What if you cannot stop a cheese because the tools are not provided for you to do so without totally crippling you if they do NOT cheese?
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On January 06 2011 04:08 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose. What if you cannot stop a cheese because the tools are not provided for you to do so without totally crippling you if they do NOT cheese?
Then it's called one of the only two strategies you should ever use for that matchup.
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On January 06 2011 04:08 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose. What if you cannot stop a cheese because the tools are not provided for you to do so without totally crippling you if they do NOT cheese?
Are you saying that the game itself is faulty because you cannot beat cheese, which you can?
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On January 06 2011 04:02 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
where's all this elitist crap come from where it says cheese is a bad thing?
pro gamers used cheese in broodwar all the time, in fact people were commended for being baller enough to attempt cheese. macro skill or not, if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose.
the whole "omg you cheesed me, you suck!" mentality is like some spoiled kiddy view which i thought we'd grown out of bacl in 1998. Another excellent point. cheese is just part of the game but dts are not cheese. cannon rushes are cheese. 6 pooling are cheese. it's debatable if dts are even semi all ins. I cringe when I hear artosis talk shit about cheese. Good players use cheese in repertoire and deal with cheese. It's part of being a successful pro.
To be fair, Artosis doesn't usually talk shit about specific cheese strats, he's more against players who he thinks can only win through cheese and nothing else (i.e. players who diceroll every game to determine the win).
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On January 06 2011 04:08 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose. What if you cannot stop a cheese because the tools are not provided for you to do so without totally crippling you if they do NOT cheese?
You should be at the top of every ladder with 100% if that were the case.
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On January 06 2011 04:08 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:59 hoovehand wrote:
if you can't stop cheese then you're well beaten and deserve to lose. What if you cannot stop a cheese because the tools are not provided for you to do so without totally crippling you if they do NOT cheese?
1. Blizzard should patch it.
2. Players will stop playing the oft-cheesed race. (e.g. Undead in WC3)
3. People will stop playing/watching the game.
There already are people abandoning Zerg race. New players won't attempt to main Zerg at its current state. I'm tired of PvP with 50% cannons and 50% 4 gate on Korean server and seriously thinking of quitting this game.
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well the pylon blocking + cannon at ramp will be fixed in the next patch, but find a solution to balance the warpgate tech will be much harder...
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On January 06 2011 03:28 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 22:16 Kawamura wrote:On January 05 2011 22:10 raidmaster wrote:On January 05 2011 22:07 FataLe wrote:On January 05 2011 21:59 raidmaster wrote:On January 05 2011 21:58 FataLe wrote:On January 05 2011 21:57 KonohaFlash wrote:On January 05 2011 21:56 Roggay wrote:On January 05 2011 21:53 KonohaFlash wrote:On January 05 2011 21:52 Kawamura wrote:
[quote]
Quit trolling, since when are DTs cheese? Your definition of trolling is completely wrong. Dt's that quickly are cheese. How is that even a debate? It is not, why are you arguing that, he expanded behind it and its not like it could go extremely wrong. Cheese is something that you can't fall back on if it is unsuccessful. Had Rain stopped the DT rush, Tester would have been behind and would lose. He expanded behind that because his Dt's wrecked Rain's economy+ Destroyed all his add-ons. No... even if he stopped damage at home that hardly puts Tester in a bad position. Rain cannot mount an attack until he gets a raven or waits for 100 energy. So what? Testes will already be way behind because he spent so much on useless units. Rain will produce more units and kill him. No... because Tester will have plenty of time to get his econ and real army up and running. Seriously I don't think you've seen a high level PvT lately. DT rushing isn't new and it's COMPLETELY viable. The Protoss is almost always ahead as the Protoss has an expo whereas the Terrans is delayed considerably. Delaying isn't really a problem if DT's do no damage. You just build units. Protoss can expand, but you will hit a timing when you have units and detection and toss has what? Expansions which has just been saturated (and you spend so much money to make it - even less units). Attack, gg. Think, then post. You should start thinking before you're posting really. You're sticking to the same invalid point all the time saying DTs are completely useless once T has detection. But the most important thing DTs do are to buy time, you fail to grasp this. With time the protoss can get his expansion up before the terran player putting him into a superior economical position. He can also get an army up in time because he has forced the terran to go through the hassle of getting all the detection and defense needed against DTs. It seems like you have very little understanding of the PvT matchup and very little experience playing it so I think you're the one who should stop posting about it until you wise up a little. Exactly anyone saying DTs are cheese makes me think they don't even play let alone understand the game. Even if he scans you EACH scan is a loss of 270 minerals from a MULE, so each Dark Templar pays for itself increasingly so. If he builds something else to detect it screws up his build orders and costs money. Protoss can exploit DTs for map control even with detection since you can't have detection everywhere. oGsMC showed us this with 20+DT kills in late game vs Rain. Finally, it's sometimes advantageous to him scouting or at least revealing it with a few kills it makes him stay at home more while you FE freely without worry.
So minerals are worth more than gas, eh? 270 minerals for 125/125 is in the terrans favor, gas is very precious for toss. Not to mention the dark shrine costs a shit ton of gas(250).
I'm not saying DT's are bad, but they are a bit more risky than say Banshees. Terran has many options for detection compared to toss and they don't have to center their build order around a DT threat(unlike toss which has to get robo first most TvP's)
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I'm so glad rain was knocked down, and I kinda liked choya's build last game.
go toss!
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Really suprised Choya came out of this group period, let alone on top. At least tester made it and lol at rain.
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Lets say in America you get into a gang fight. Can you kick em in the balls? yes you can.. but do people do it? Not that I know of.. Its cheap and it makes you less of a man if you do that...
just like cheesing in starcraft... just don't do it if you have self respect...
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Just saw all the games of this series. After such pleasant games from yesterday, it actually just felt like a kick in the balls. Well, i guess that's how the game works. All the mechanics of the protoss race were made to cheese: warping buildings (makes impossible to stop the cannon from just killing the probe), warping units thanks to proxy-pylons, chrono-boosting. Gamers are just doing what the race is supposed to do. Blame Blizzard, Protoss is just a flawed race.
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LMAO Artosis and his expression
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On January 06 2011 05:56 ilmman wrote:
Lets say in America you get into a gang fight. Can you kick em in the balls? yes you can.. but do people do it? Not that I know of.. Its cheap and it makes you less of a man if you do that...
just like cheesing in starcraft... just don't do it if you have self respect...
Do you really seriously think that in gang fights they don't do something because of self respect?
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Rushing dts is like going cloaked banshees, except it's a bit more of a significant investment. You're just taking a risk, especially if you see your opponent doing a strategy like Rain was.
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EPT
