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On September 20 2010 21:47 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:40 Koukalaka wrote:
On the EU ladder, at 1600 Protoss, I encouter Terran players who all in Marine/Banshee/Raven push with 20-25 SCVs all the time. I also encounter 90% of my PVPs ending with me going gate > core > FE and losing to 4 gate. I also lose a lot of my PvZs because I go gate > core > FE and lose to an all in roach push, baneling bust, of 6 pool.
Cheese happens everywhere.
Stop crying that someone you'll never meet lost in a tournament you'll never play.
Calling me a bad player. GG. Obviously we're discussing players much better than ourselves. I just consider cheesing (and this is obviously just an opinion) to be bad sportsmanship, and an act of desperation by players who don't deserve to be where they are. There's no resource management. No risk assessment, no cost benefit analysis (something TLO is pretty genius at) and it's just a basic attempt to turn a STRATEGY game into a round of counter-strike with an AWP. Sure it's all about the money, and I know these guys are doing it for their living. But the koreans also shun poor sportmanship following a win or a loss, but don't care about how they get to that win or loss? It's akin to the kamikaze attacks of WWII, the burning of Dresdin, or the attack against pearl harbor (obviously these are tactical analogies, not relating a video game to war!) No honor in such tactics.
No, cheesy strategies can not be compared to the burning of Dresdin.
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On September 20 2010 21:46 NeVeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:36 dabom88 wrote:On September 20 2010 21:33 heishe wrote:
lots of unreasonable hate against hyperdub here.
Honestly, let them get their hate. TLO has a LOT of fans, and even if the hate is "unreasonable", TLO was the reason a lot of people were bothering to watch this tourney. He has a lot of followers, and most of them are pissed that he lost to cheese. The hate is perfectly understandable, even if it is "unreasonable". Just let them vent for a while, they'll be back for the next GSL. it makes TL look retarded when we have a bunch of people crying "WTF stupid korean cheesers, you don't deserve to win". people need to quit whining about cheese and accept that it is a part of the game.
Seriously, punch your fucking pillow or something, don't post in a childish fit of rage. Whiners drive me nuts.
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On September 20 2010 21:47 sc2lime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:39 JWD wrote:On September 20 2010 21:37 Lovedrop wrote:
Games done, streams offline, no interview. Only pointless bickering in here, close thread please. Nah, we'd rather just use the thread as a trap for idiot posters. There are about 10 mods lurking around here now, waiting for the morons to reveal themselves! (Whenever something dramatic or controversial happens, the morons come out in droves. They can't help themselves.) Is it quite necessary to repeatedly use that tone regarding certain users here? Aren't you a mod and should be professional about this?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
This isn't an equal opportunity society lol.
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On September 20 2010 21:44 zemiron wrote:
I'm sad that TLO lost, but I'm mad because I think cheese strategies make for bad entertainment. The games that are fun to watch are the games that go on for a little while. I don't think there is any problem with being made when a player cheeses. It's just not good entertainment.
If you were playing for thousands and thousands of dollars (mind you this is their primary, if not only, source of income), wouldn't you do whatever you could to make sure you won? I don't see how this is different than a "trick play" in american football.
Sure, we all want to see more games like Game 1 of that series, but hyperdub did his job and won the round.
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I just love Gretech. "The games are over, time to GTFO!!!" and cut everything.
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On September 20 2010 21:45 Substancer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:38 Senx wrote:
GOMTV doesnt really give a shit about the foreigner scene when they cut off the stream RIGHT when TLO sits down for the interview..
Wow.. Yes screw them, I will never pay for anything from them. Now that the two best foreigners are gone, goodbye.
Wow. How old are you guys? I mean really?
GOM have a schedlue like anyone else, which they have to follow. They would have done the same thing if hyberdub lost and was up for a loosers interview. People like you should just leave. Just because a player looses to a better player you boikot the whole tournament and act like kids.
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really? why does hyperdub look so angry...
or is it the "asian" eyes........
nice.
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On September 20 2010 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:43 scottyyy wrote:On September 20 2010 21:41 gozima wrote:
I really don't understand all the TLO love. He's quite literally won no tournaments in beta or post release.
People throw around the word "creative" way too much when referring to him too.
When other people do unorthodox builds, they're instantly labeled noob, but when TLO does it he's some sort of genius.
Hyperdub outplayed him in game 1 and dominated him in game 2. If it wasn't for one mistake in game 1, hyperdub would have won 2-0. Really now? Are you serious or trolling? * 2nd place, TeamLiquid SC2 Invitational 1 * 1st place, Go4SC2 ESL Cup #7 * 1st place, Go4SC2 ESL Cup #11 * 1st place, Zotac Cup #12 * 2nd place, PLU.cn Kaspersky Cup * 4th place, Altitude TL Invitational * 4th place, HDH Invitational That's pretty fucking impressive. LOL@ fourth place in Altitude. You should go check out more info about the tournament 
I know it was a 4 player tournament. I just pasted that from Liquipedia. It's still an impressive list of achievements no matter how you look at it - not many people have done that well.
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On September 20 2010 21:47 sc2lime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:39 JWD wrote:On September 20 2010 21:37 Lovedrop wrote:
Games done, streams offline, no interview. Only pointless bickering in here, close thread please. Nah, we'd rather just use the thread as a trap for idiot posters. There are about 10 mods lurking around here now, waiting for the morons to reveal themselves! (Whenever something dramatic or controversial happens, the morons come out in droves. They can't help themselves.) Is it quite necessary to repeatedly use that tone regarding certain users here? Aren't you a mod and should be professional about this?
Being a professional indicates they get paid for doing this which they don't. Also yes that is the right tone because that is how posters on TL get when a fan favorite loses.
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Great 1st game, also I know this is strange but getting angry and pissed at another player is awesome for a sport. I mean people really care just like in a REAL sport. I doubt anyone cares for any other esports, so this is a pretty cool reaction to get from people. This is a good thing that people are mad or sad.
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There's nothing wrong with bitching about cheese. It's lame, not entertaining, and even the player himself said he was ashamed of it.
Trying to seem unbiased and neutral is pretentious in this case. Just be honest, it was terrible and lame.
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On September 20 2010 21:38 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:36 vyyye wrote:
"These retarded koreans"
Yeah, no generalization or anything going on there. Fuck off with that shit, westerners also cheese. It won him the game, not like he has any reason to regret it. It's a pointless argument, but I stopped encountering a ton of cheese once I broke past gold. (I'm US) and yes, if esports were big here, and americans all cheesed, i'd say "We play like retarded kids." Talent is the way to win, not just betting on a roll of the dice.
With every strategy, there is a chance you will win and a chance you will lose. Early rush is a calculated strategy that players use when it is predicted to be a higher win % than playing a standard game. It's nothing more or less than that.
I will mention that in this tournament, (irregardless of race) players who are of inferior skill that manage to get to 1-1, will just cheese the last game and roll for a win. That's what hyperdub did.
That's why I prefer the best of 5. Bad players are more readily knocked out. hyperdub is great, no doubts. But he's just not as good as TLO, and that leaked through in a lot of ways.
I agree that the more insecure player tends to cheese, and I think that's smart. Idra plays a very exploitable strategy and we saw his opponent exploit it. TLO, even though his opponent only cheesed in g3, he started at a disadvantage in all 3 games. I don't know how you can say the skill is so much greater when he's starting on the back foot every time. Even if you are a really brilliant tactician or have perfect micro or macro, you still need to have a good strategy to survive the early game to reach your potential.
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On September 20 2010 21:47 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:46 NeVeR wrote:On September 20 2010 21:36 dabom88 wrote:On September 20 2010 21:33 heishe wrote:
lots of unreasonable hate against hyperdub here.
Honestly, let them get their hate. TLO has a LOT of fans, and even if the hate is "unreasonable", TLO was the reason a lot of people were bothering to watch this tourney. He has a lot of followers, and most of them are pissed that he lost to cheese. The hate is perfectly understandable, even if it is "unreasonable". Just let them vent for a while, they'll be back for the next GSL. it makes TL look retarded when we have a bunch of people crying "WTF stupid korean cheesers, you don't deserve to win". people need to quit whining about cheese and accept that it is a part of the game. Seriously, punch your fucking pillow or something, don't post in a childish fit of rage. Whiners drive me nuts.
I should of thought of punching a pillow before I punched myself in the balls like I ended up doing... =[
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+ Show Spoiler +TLO played well but Hyperdub played better overall. Game 2 was pretty one sided in Hyperdub's favour. Not checking for rax in the last game was pretty sloppy but both players were no doubt worn out from the previous 2.
The first game was fun to watch and + Show Spoiler +TLO made an amazing comeback.
I hope he continues to practice and become an even better player.
I find it funny how angry people are getting at "cheese". People never got this worked up when Boxer BBS'd or Bisu horror gated Pokju into retirement... The blatant racism from some people is just ridiculous.
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I really dont get people who say: hyperdub cheesed = no credit for him? Didn't you guys watch OSL finals between Flash and Jaedong? It was freakin cheese fest, and still these two guys are most beloved progamers ever...
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Kinda wondering how i was warned by a mod for a spoiler a couple of days ago in the Day 3 thread for talking about someone winning/losing, when the last 40 pages here are spoilers..
OT:
It was a great set of games - Players do what they need to do to win. Do the unexpected
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People throw around the word "creative" way too much when referring to him too.
When other people do unorthodox builds, they're instantly labeled noob, but when TLO does it he's some sort of genius.
The TLO affection is because he's completely unorthodox in every facet of his play. Whereas the rest of us plebeians drill build orders and timings and non-ridiculous hotkey setups, TLO seems to just wing games with no real order to any facet of his play. Then, miraculously, order arises out of chaos. He's like Jackson Pollock in an art world that has only seen classicists. Combine his game sense and improvisation with Idra's mechanical skill and you have the perfect SC2 player.
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To be fair, many great players have left the tournament. In each round. It's a Bo1/Bo3 direct knockout in these stages, it's bound to be pretty random. Inferring too much from this would be a mistake. That's why people play series of games in a match, because one game could go either way.
If this was a league, in which everyone plays everyone else, then many of the eliminated players would be ranked higher than a lot of the remaining players.
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On September 20 2010 21:45 Torr wrote:![[image loading]](http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs680.snc4/62028_789390268618_20712073_44074739_2454922_n.jpg) + Show Spoiler +You will get them next time TLO
dude! thats a very creative poster! nice...
The next qualifiers start in less than 2 weeks, so we will be seeing TLO fight soon!
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On September 20 2010 21:43 Jibba wrote:
I love TLO but that was a pretty brilliant way to end the series after the way those first two games went. You get tunnel vision on intense macro games and then all of the sudden it's a rush. That's the kind of unpredictability/cheese all great players should have in their arsenal.
completely agreed, "cheese" is what actually makes a game unpredictable and fun to watch
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EPT
