Started playing hardcore again after many years and plan to work my way back to GM MMR but there if there is one thing that is really killing my motivation it is widowmine harass.
I scout for it identify it is coming or if I don't get a good scout I keep extra attention to the mini map during the usual timings WM drops tend to hit.
Regardless of this I'm struggling with turtling Terrans who just send in one medivac after the other, and the ones who get drilling claws I find it extremely hard to defend perfectly.
I tried adding cannons when I identified drilling claws drop, in addition to this my pref opening is blink stalker with hallucination scout to be even more prepared but the speed at which they burrow cannons are basically useless unless he flies straight into my cannons and doesn't unload the WMs which they identify with scanning or previously failed drops anyway.
I tried watching pro matches and I've seen they deal with it perfectly but just as often I see even pro gamers unable to spot this if they just happen to have their attention elsewhere.
Maybe it's just me but I find it very unfair that Terrans and Zergs can basicly delete an entire mineral line of probes where you have 2 second reaction time.
Basicly you are playing a game and you spot the drop 2 late and the game is over in less then 2 seconds. I really dont know what to say.
The amount of times I've just played a game and within 2 seconds I find myself typing gg because I know I will never hold the followup 2 base all inn with half the worker count of my opponent. Why can't Protoss get a unit that deletes a mineral line in 2 seconds and wins you the game like Zerg and Terran does? QQ Protoss tears.
Any tips on how to deflect these drops, better minimap awareness is not gonna help even pro's mess up half the time.
If Terrans are just turtling and sending out constant mine drops what else do you have to defend?
That aside I largely agree with your frustration, between baneling runbys/drops, oracles and other such units that can decisively swing a game the reaction time requirement can be a bit ridiculous imo.
On December 08 2019 09:08 Wombat_NI wrote: If Terrans are just turtling and sending out constant mine drops what else do you have to defend?
That aside I largely agree with your frustration, between baneling runbys/drops, oracles and other such units that can decisively swing a game the reaction time requirement can be a bit ridiculous imo.
Yeah kinda tough when I'm splitting like mad defending one drop cleaning it up as efficient as i can when another medivac with 4 wm flies into my natural, I don't have an army that can counter attack and kill the terran even if he invests 2 ful medivacs and loses them both because of how strong terran is defensively.
I don't really know what to say, if they have the right angle they just boost straight inn and borrow WMs in the middle of stalkers/cannons and early in the game I split my stalkers into 2 groups so I don't have that many.
Trying to figure out how to make it a bit easier for myself like cannon/stalker and building placement
I think the main points here are vision and attention management. WM drops and BC harras are about the only things terran has that don´t require constant attention and micro so terrans do em to buy themselves time because you invest more actions defending this then they do trying to harras you with it. So what you really want is to defend this shit with just 1 or 2 simple clicks on the minimap and maybe a single Blink and in order to do that you need to either be in perfect position ( which should be rather simple if you are on 2 base) or have enough vision so you have time to reposition (3+ Bases). You could/should place some Observers/pylons/Zealots/fenix whatever you have into the Drop lanes as an early alert system and if you know it is coming have a couple stalkers ready to defend and deny the medivac entry.
Like drops in general are only really useful for backstabbing. If you are in a defensive macro position and a terran is dropping you he is basically gifting you free stuff so be glad and just take it! then move on to secure your map with vision and prepare for the backstab to come when you move out.
Also note that ALL terrans start mismicroing their drops as soon as they come under attack. Your friend the Zealot ensures that. Every time a bunch of zealots run into some marines terran has to stutter step or overpay. You dont have that problem, you just send em in and forget about em but for terran thats like 2-3 seconds of screen time and a couple frantic mouse clicks. So if you manage to overload their micro capacity with having them do bullshit low gain micro all the time they won´t be able to carefully fuck you up with perfect mine drops, especially when you have some sort of defense planned for it.
unfortunately the answer has always been better minimap awareness. It's a lot easier to defend when you know its coming though. I open sentry 2nd into hallucination and if you see - barracks, factory, starport that indicates a widow mine drop - barracks, factory w/ techlab (with research), starport that could indicate widow mine drops with drilling claws, meaning that you should be preparing for widow mine drops for a longer period of time rather than just one
Other traditional tips are to have 3ish obs monitoring common spots on the minimap, or plant pylons in important blind spots.
Minimap awareness really is the answer, but it's about having the right vision so you have more time to react. If you're doing the right things, it's way easier to defend this stuff.
For example, you want a spotter pylon behind the minerals at your 3rd base, before it's even finished (or even started in some situations). This should be your 3rd/4th pylon so it is finished in time for a standard widow mine drop timing. If you have the 3rd base building as well, this almost guarantees that any mine drop that goes this way will be scouted before it reaches your base. This gives you ample time to react.
Likewise, you should have an observer in time to scout the air space around your natural, so again, you're scouting it way before it's hitting your mineral line. Or if you opened SG, you just have your units there to scout for it. These 2 things are like the prerequisite for playing a defensive macro game in PvT, so there should be no reason that you can't theoretically deal with every standard WM drop (obviously, in an actual game, screwups can happen but doing these things I mention significantly reduces the chance that you "just didn't see it"). Emphasis on defensive macro game, a lot of the time WM drops do damage in pro games is cos they were trying to be aggressive on the map. If you're just at home with a set up like this, you really shouldn't take any damage. Ofc, you can't just stay at home every game because other builds like tank pushes actually require you to kite and delay, but that's all about scouting what your opponent is doing and reacting accordingly which would take a 2000 word post just to describe the basics.
Drilling claws drop is a different beast but it's actually just an insanely risky and uncommon build that you won't see it much. I think it is a good build but it's hardly solid by any means.
1) train yourself to be hyper aware of the minimap around the specific time when wm drops are meant to hit (im not an expert on timings but i think its like 4:30-5:00 depending on execution)
2) try to keep a positive mindset by assuming your opponent might not be macroing perfectly, and warp in a bunch of stalkers + counterattack after you lose too many probes. it won't always work, but sometimes it will against weak opponents and it's a way to keep your morale up and take a few games rather than having them "stolen" by your slow reaction. this isn't "high level" advice, but sometimes the best way to win from a bad position on ladder is is to just throw out a counterattack and make your opponent defend. if you believe you can still win you'll take some games this way. you won't rank up doing it, but you'll salvage some bad situations, and it can help your confidence
On December 10 2019 03:50 brickrd wrote: 1) train yourself to be hyper aware of the minimap around the specific time when wm drops are meant to hit (im not an expert on timings but i think its like 4:30-5:00 depending on execution)
2) try to keep a positive mindset by assuming your opponent might not be macroing perfectly, and warp in a bunch of stalkers + counterattack after you lose too many probes. it won't always work, but sometimes it will against weak opponents and it's a way to keep your morale up and take a few games rather than having them "stolen" by your slow reaction. this isn't "high level" advice, but sometimes the best way to win from a bad position on ladder is is to just throw out a counterattack and make your opponent defend. if you believe you can still win you'll take some games this way. you won't rank up doing it, but you'll salvage some bad situations, and it can help your confidence
You are underestimating your advice! The pros always take huge risks or go all-in if they are in a bad situation following successful harassment.
One difference, though, is that in lower leagues, players are much worse at cashing in on their advantage, so it is possible to still aim for an equal position later in the game for a good macro player (relative to the league.)
Given how common minedrops are, it is interesting it still deals damage all up to pro level. However: the best defensive tosses just makes the drop attempts look stupid by just placing the right amounts of stalkers where the drops are most likely to come in.
this is an old hat, honestly it exist since start of hots of course, and now it got nerfed "alot". You know the mw nerf, and the maps have much more air behind your minerals = earlier spotting, earlier hitting, => earlier retreat/etc.
When protoss were prepared which they are usually vs a lot of Terran things because terran does a lot of different harasses (choose of bio, air, heavy air, mech: widow, mech: hellion) (because they kind of have to) it does nothing.
Now because many protoss are so good at defending it, terran stopped doing it, and then protoss stopped defending and looking for it?, that's because you might see it now again, but better executed. So if you face it freshly it might seem strong. Same with cannoning to people who don't see it often.
That being said alot of things are strong.. it is the same with good ol' DT drops, Void Ray base snipes, fast techs etc (like 1 base nydus ravager, 1base thor drops with repair, and similar shenanigans), I mention DT drops first, because nowadays you have even 3 improved options to retreat DTs much more safely (Warp prism's pickup range, Strategic Recall... and Shadow Stride ... which is quite cheap, if you plan to use it at least a 2nd time in the game). So maybe isntead of worrying about defending that one strategy - of course your choice - you want to get some more aggression on your part. By the way, two other popular protoss "drops" are Storm, and Disruptor... All aimed at scv-killing of course.
In general all these strategies can all be very very devastating in a Bo5, indeed some are quite costly.
I think the best fresh series (VOD) you can get in this regard is Special vs Rogue PvZ,@BC (specials last tournament game, this and some years following). You can / should ask for the game, but probably most know where and which it is...
Nice tips here. Tried to add some fresh thoughts, I didn't read.
I know at some point a few years ago, there was a hot key setup you could do so you could grab 20 probes and just move your mouse all over the screen and it would make your probes split. Does anyone know if this is still possible / if so how to do it?
Some people open phoenix just to deal with the upgraded WM drop, because phoenix can lift the WM and it can actually kill the medivac. If you sticks with robo opener, you are forced into a lot of stalker, and you cant just stay at the mineral lines for defend. You need to spread out and start hitting the medivac BEFORE it arrives your mineral, so they are forced to drop out the WM early. The actual execution with stalkers is very tricky too. You need to hit the medivac while making sure your stalker won't be blown up by any WM. If your stalker gets hit it is bad, because then you need to wrap in more stalker, and it delays your tech or 3rd. A little suggestion is that tries to plant one or two pylon outside your base if you scouts upgraded WM drop. WM can't kill building and it gives you vision. Once you defend it without losing too much, you are very ahead because they put a lot of gas into these drops, their stim is very late.
On December 11 2019 11:45 Allred wrote: I know at some point a few years ago, there was a hot key setup you could do so you could grab 20 probes and just move your mouse all over the screen and it would make your probes split. Does anyone know if this is still possible / if so how to do it?
Allred, to my knowledge that (ab)usage has been fixed. I tried it some time ago, too. Back then I could do it, now I can't (was too good I suppose). While there might be a chance, it was just my new setup (gaming setup and keyboard w/e), I am still quite certain. Because I can use other rapid fire things. Feel free to try it though Always try yourself, so I don't want to deny the way, here it is, and if not, for nostalgia..
PAST,: Basically you used that through the Idle WOrker button + setting up a smart command nearby. You could press both hotkeys at the same time, issuing both commands in a rapid succession -> moving your mouse around would move your SCVs in all kind of directions: You would select your probes (to be split), press Stop (hotkey), making them idle. Then holding the idle worker hotkey would spam through them, but before (at the same time) you would press the move-key-as smart command IIRC - this is quite some time ago, so watch the video for details. Again To my knowledge this has been fixed, but the idle worker is always rapid fire. (I could do this once, so I know about what I'm talking..)
Here is the video for you, from Tutorial Central Sc2
: ! Again To my knowledge this has been fixed ! (Still worth to watch...)
! Again To my knowledge this has been fixed! (Still worth to watch...)
By the way, the creator is named Jakatak,as is his new channel. PS: You will need to test it for yourself. If you could manage to use this trick, still, please write me a PM. Heads Up: I didn't see this on my enemies ever. Not before, not now. (oh btw I play all 3 races). Use that information how you want. Noob Tip: Copy your hotkeys (backup out of starcraft2), in starcraft2 create a new one based on that for testing... PPS: I re tested it now, so at least for me, my smart command won't spam.
So my conclusion for you: You can still use the idle worker button spam, and then spam+move but it is far slower than the original trick. And doing it manually is probably much better. Especially because you don't have idle probes standing around to begin with. In the end this was just an oh-shit-method afterall, and you should not build on it. BUT TRY YOURSELF it's effective nevertheless. On a side note: Your key repeat rate must not be too high for the "normal" usage, otherwise your manual move spam won't keep up (depending on how fast you can click... and you will miss probes). TBH I don't recommend too high key repeat rates anyways as you can not dose it well for other things, and also typing actually. I personally chose a mediocre repeat rate, after alot of experimenting. and I am using about 4 rapid fire hotkeys (warpgate units, move-hotkey for phoenix, and some spells). I can't warp in 20 zealots as fast as other people can, but I think I have more control over it also for other races, like having all larvae selected (but not wanting the all to go to one unit type...) It's personal decision - for experienced users of course. In a nutshell: Don't use the idle worker trick to spread anymore, but you can try the abusive trick of course yourself first. I hope this helped to clarify everything.
By the way: There is several of things you can do with Smart Commands... if you want that. (It's using hotkeys without having to click), so to cast a Storm, without having to click with your mouse... you probably also know the other appliactions like "Choose Ability" used for EXAMPLE: stuff like dropping mules, injections. There is more videos at the channel/video I linked above... also read the comments maybe.All for the experienced user.
honestly, I've seen puck while being Rank 1 GM lose games to it. Don't worry? Just try and if you fail, gg and to the next game. it is the biggest mismatch of what it takes to defend vs what it takes to execute left in the game. they fixed oracles, fungal, adepts, maybe one day. So far, if Rank 1 GM players can't consistently defend it, feel ok if you lose 50% of your games to it vs terran and move on.
On December 16 2019 08:37 naughtDE wrote: honestly, I've seen puck while being Rank 1 GM lose games to it. Don't worry? Just try and if you fail, gg and to the next game. it is the biggest mismatch of what it takes to defend vs what it takes to execute left in the game. they fixed oracles, fungal, adepts, maybe one day. So far, if Rank 1 GM players can't consistently defend it, feel ok if you lose 50% of your games to it vs terran and move on.
You need to be a protoss to claim that. A-moving chargelots and speedlings into a base requires much less apm than wm drops, and pros lose to it all the time.
All kinds of harassment has a significant skill cap. A double wm drop with helions running into your 3rd is hard to defend but damn hard to execute perfectly as well.
As others have mentioned, if the Terran needs attention to deal with something else, the wm drops become much less effective, or they just forget they planned to do them...
On December 16 2019 08:37 naughtDE wrote: honestly, I've seen puck while being Rank 1 GM lose games to it. Don't worry? Just try and if you fail, gg and to the next game. it is the biggest mismatch of what it takes to defend vs what it takes to execute left in the game. they fixed oracles, fungal, adepts, maybe one day. So far, if Rank 1 GM players can't consistently defend it, feel ok if you lose 50% of your games to it vs terran and move on.
You need to be a protoss to claim that. A-moving chargelots and speedlings into a base requires much less apm than wm drops, and pros lose to it all the time.
All kinds of harassment has a significant skill cap. A double wm drop with helions running into your 3rd is hard to defend but damn hard to execute perfectly as well.
As others have mentioned, if the Terran needs attention to deal with something else, the wm drops become much less effective, or they just forget they planned to do them...
Oh, my bad, I thought this was about the early game widow mine drop, where a single widow mine one-shots a group of probes and you barely have any units to shot them down before they burrow and reacting often times makes the situation worse. If we are talking about having three saturated bases then losing some probes isn't game ending and you usually have enough units to defend at least some of the multi-pronged harass and even put on counter pressure as you mentioned. Widow mines are fine in mid and late game. I honestly think I misread OP after rereading it, probably because of how traumatized I am from the early drops (the game I was referring to Puck also lost to the first medivac). Again, my bad you are right.
On December 16 2019 08:37 naughtDE wrote: honestly, I've seen puck while being Rank 1 GM lose games to it. Don't worry? Just try and if you fail, gg and to the next game. it is the biggest mismatch of what it takes to defend vs what it takes to execute left in the game. they fixed oracles, fungal, adepts, maybe one day. So far, if Rank 1 GM players can't consistently defend it, feel ok if you lose 50% of your games to it vs terran and move on.
Critique is not meant to harm... The comment seems very one-sided. Widow mine micro is certainly not minor... you even want them on a hotkey outside your army. They don't auto burrow and instead run away from attacks (away from your desired position in milliseconds). So that takes attention... As protoss all you need to do is pull probes away, and have 1-2 cannons basically. I think each of my enemy I faced does that... Some have a HTemplar in each expansion, feedbacking, or storming does damage to the medivac aswell, it can only boost so long. Maybe GMs are concentrated too much on other things. I also watched a korean recently, and he split with just 2 mouse-clicks and stop command.
It's the same with all undefended drops, or how do you think about Storm drops or Disruptor drops, they are just as deadly if not spotted. I think today I lost all my main base scvs during a fight at my third... I'm not to used to those drops, too.
The one thing I heard does not take much effort is liberator Harass vs what you want to defend it with. Because that is actually shifting/afking.
I think almost everything can be deadly in a few seconds if you don't care attention to it. And it happens to everyone, it doesn't say the other thing is imbalanced though from that. I think. I try to play each race a bit.
I don't think the discussion belongs here though, just how to help the topic creator. He is off the website apparently.
PS: comment was written as response to page 1, completely missed there is a new page already^_^
EPT
