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Hello some of you might know me from the 3 Roach Guide. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/507369-zvt-3-roach-opener
I know, a lot of Zergs struggle with TC openers. I originally intended to use this Build versus Stargates but it also works well versus TC Adept Openers.
The Inspiration
I took this build from a Game Dark played on Prion Terraces vs Stats.
+ Show Spoiler +
In that Game Dark opens with 3 fast hatches, keeps mining gas, @3:00 he gets an evolution chamber and drops 8 lings, @3:40 he gets his roachwarren and just pumps mass roaches of his 2 base saturation.
However, this game was on Prion Terraces so the Zerg has a little bit more economy due to the gold minerals giving 4 "free" Drones. I changed the build slightly, cutting the Drop and came up with the following.
The Build
Hatch Gas Pool -> 3rd Hatch. 3 Queens for injects. You need them for the ling flood.
@Pool 2 Lings for scouting.
@100 Gas Lingspeed --> Keep drones in Gas.
@3:40 Roach Warren --> Stop droning you should now have ~35 Drones.
Build Overlords till ~80 Supply.
@Roach Warren --> Mass Roaches then Ling flood
Morph Ravagers with your gas.
Walkthrough Videos
+ Show Spoiler +Versus TC Versus Stargate Versus TC into Stargate
Have fun on Ladder 
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Hey Railgan, you may remember me from your other post, it actually was a great contribution for me making masters last season, also made masters again this season thanks to the 3 roach pressure being a heavy hitter in my arsenal of zvt builds
i think on your youtube you had a "19 drone" roach ling all vs protoss build (i may be wrong) but i tried it and failed hard due to lack of a "flood of zerg units" and stargate opener double oracle and overcharged pylons shit on me, hwoever im going to give this a try as it appears to open up fairly standard and allows you to have a much bigger swell of untis while hardcountering current toss adept heavy meta
Ill report back in a couple of days and let you know how my ladder games go.
OH and also, in game 1 you snipe the protoss's third base, could you have decided at that point to just head home and macro out into a hydra ling brood lord type comp, or anything really? or do u feel pressured to end the game there?
and as always, thanks for sharing, you should probably drop your twitch link for fellow zergs to check out your channel btw 
Regards,
DigitalzEX
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On June 27 2016 02:06 Digitalz1 wrote:
OH and also, in game 1 you snipe the protoss's third base, could you have decided at that point to just head home and macro out into a hydra ling brood lord type comp, or anything really? or do u feel pressured to end the game there?
Sniping the 3rd is not enough damage done in my opinion. Tech wise you have almost nothing at that point. No Lair, No Evos all you have is a roach warren and lingspeed. Economy wise you are at 35 drones while you need 44 Drones (32 Minerals 12 Gas) for the optimal 2 Base Saturation, this means you are also ~12x50 + 75= 675 Minerals behind away from that.
This means the Protoss most likely has a better economic position and a better tech position with TC and a Robo or Stargate. I would also need to be worried about Warpprism / DT Harrass or even full on 2 base Allins.
These are the reasons why I think you need to do more damage than take out the 3rd and kill some adepts if you do such a commited attack. However, if you do more damage you can definitly go for Lair and play whatever composition you like .
The 19 Drone Build (which I also took from Dark) is a complete allin. If you lose to Stargate double Oracle then you probably didn't commit enough or made mistakes in your Micro. If the Protoss commits that heavily to Oracles you should be able to bait an overcharge and then simply kill the next overcharged pylon before you finish him.
My Streamlink is always in my signature! As well as all my other contacts. ATM I don't stream too much as I have my finals in the upcoming weeks.
Thanks for your comment
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My opinion is this can work but you will be extremely behind vs Stargate and proper openings with Sentries, also, this isn't really a good example as in the video it is showing Prion terraces with the gold at natural instead of 3rd, also Prion isn't in the map pool anymore and this opening is a lot better on a map with a gold as your natural, and I think that is the only reason Dark did this build on this map.
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On June 27 2016 04:06 GGzerG wrote:
My opinion is this can work but you will be extremely behind vs Stargate and proper openings with Sentries, also, this isn't really a good example as in the video it is showing Prion terraces with the gold at natural instead of 3rd, also Prion isn't in the map pool anymore and this opening is a lot better on a map with a gold as your natural, and I think that is the only reason Dark did this build on this map.
Check my other videos. I play vs GM Players on Europe. One goes Stargate, the other goes TC. I beat both of them.
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This is the Roach Ling all-in Scarlett wanted to do against Harstem in the HSC Grand Finals but miserably failed to execute. Will take a look at and try it out. :D
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alright so just thought i would follow up, had a really interesting game on king sejong, i went for this build off the bat, protoss tries delaying my third base dropping a pylon, bringing an adept and then a manner cyber core... i clean it up easily taking a delayed third and march across the map.... what came next was absolutely hilarious...
ADEPTS, they honestly thought they were going to do something and close off the game, i mean, the protoss thought he was going to blindly A move adepts.,... it got shut down instantly, proceeded to shut down his third, break into his nat and into his main where i caught glimpse of his darkshrine warping in at the top of the ramp, by then though he had taken so much economic damage he tapped out after telling me how easy my race is and how any autistic person could execute that and win lol
i rate this build a solid 10/10 - will do again..... and again..... and probably again for the next few days hehe
Sincerly, a rank 17 mid masters pleb zerg
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Wow this is disgusting. Love it.
Abuses a current meta build and the gap in scouting between first adepts and the glaive pressure. Gross .
Ofc this is a huge, blind commitment, but I can imagine you destroying many players who don't do this build also. I guess oracle would be the best vs this because it would get the fastest scout on it and have the opportunity to respond with a VR.
Your thoughts on builds that do best vs this Railgan?
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On June 30 2016 19:45 PiGStarcraft wrote:Wow this is disgusting. Love it. Abuses a current meta build and the gap in scouting between first adepts and the glaive pressure. Gross . Ofc this is a huge, blind commitment, but I can imagine you destroying many players who don't do this build also. I guess oracle would be the best vs this because it would get the fastest scout on it and have the opportunity to respond with a VR. Your thoughts on builds that do best vs this Railgan?
To give some more insight first. If you see a Zerg going Hatch Gas Pool Hatch and he keeps mining gas. The Protoss usually assumes that Drop play is coming. The two common responses to this are Stargate and Adepts.
Against a Protoss who goes 3 Base Stargate / TC / Robo the build does pretty good. Standard Phoenix and Adept openers are no real Problem.
There are multiple threats though.
If the Protoss goes straight for a Voidray build he can get out 2 (I believe) by the time my push arrives and we all know what Voidrays do to Roaches .
Going straight Immortal can work, doesn't always though. It depends on the micro of both players, the wall off etc. The Protoss will usually lose their 3rd base anyways as they need the pylons and wall to defend against the Push. The problem here are sentries that delay the push until there are atleast 2 Immortals at which point it just gets harder and harder to break.
I also struggled versus Gateway heavy Stalker Adept Sentry when I played versus Gungfupanda on Prion Terraces. I don't really recall what he went for in that game. I think it was a 2 Base Adept Stalker Sentry push?
Finally there is 1 build that completly counters this. Dark Templar Rush. You have no lair and dt's will simply destroy your army so quickly that you will usually just instantly lose the game.
TL;DR
Basically if you know this build is coming. Go Dark Templar or Voidray. But do not forget that the Zerg can also change his plan
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Added another Video to showcase TC -> Voidray.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svN_iDJan7s
To make it short. I flood him with lings to try and unpower his Stargates and kill his Workers while building Queens at home in case he went for a counter attack.
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On June 30 2016 20:24 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 19:45 PiGStarcraft wrote:Wow this is disgusting. Love it. Abuses a current meta build and the gap in scouting between first adepts and the glaive pressure. Gross . Ofc this is a huge, blind commitment, but I can imagine you destroying many players who don't do this build also. I guess oracle would be the best vs this because it would get the fastest scout on it and have the opportunity to respond with a VR. Your thoughts on builds that do best vs this Railgan? To give some more insight first. If you see a Zerg going Hatch Gas Pool Hatch and he keeps mining gas. The Protoss usually assumes that Drop play is coming. The two common responses to this are Stargate and Adepts. Against a Protoss who goes 3 Base Stargate / TC / Robo the build does pretty good. Standard Phoenix and Adept openers are no real Problem. There are multiple threats though. If the Protoss goes straight for a Voidray build he can get out 2 (I believe) by the time my push arrives and we all know what Voidrays do to Roaches . Going straight Immortal can work, doesn't always though. It depends on the micro of both players, the wall off etc. The Protoss will usually lose their 3rd base anyways as they need the pylons and wall to defend against the Push. The problem here are sentries that delay the push until there are atleast 2 Immortals at which point it just gets harder and harder to break. I also struggled versus Gateway heavy Stalker Adept Sentry when I played versus Gungfupanda on Prion Terraces. I don't really recall what he went for in that game. I think it was a 2 Base Adept Stalker Sentry push? Finally there is 1 build that completly counters this. Dark Templar Rush. You have no lair and dt's will simply destroy your army so quickly that you will usually just instantly lose the game. TL;DR Basically if you know this build is coming. Go Dark Templar or Voidray. But do not forget that the Zerg can also change his plan
going oracle (scout build)->VR->VR means the 2nd one is on the way as you're pushing, and P should be able to defend, no? I've only played people with slightly worse timing than you, so I ask.
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On July 05 2016 07:05 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 20:24 Railgan wrote:On June 30 2016 19:45 PiGStarcraft wrote:Wow this is disgusting. Love it. Abuses a current meta build and the gap in scouting between first adepts and the glaive pressure. Gross . Ofc this is a huge, blind commitment, but I can imagine you destroying many players who don't do this build also. I guess oracle would be the best vs this because it would get the fastest scout on it and have the opportunity to respond with a VR. Your thoughts on builds that do best vs this Railgan? To give some more insight first. If you see a Zerg going Hatch Gas Pool Hatch and he keeps mining gas. The Protoss usually assumes that Drop play is coming. The two common responses to this are Stargate and Adepts. Against a Protoss who goes 3 Base Stargate / TC / Robo the build does pretty good. Standard Phoenix and Adept openers are no real Problem. There are multiple threats though. If the Protoss goes straight for a Voidray build he can get out 2 (I believe) by the time my push arrives and we all know what Voidrays do to Roaches . Going straight Immortal can work, doesn't always though. It depends on the micro of both players, the wall off etc. The Protoss will usually lose their 3rd base anyways as they need the pylons and wall to defend against the Push. The problem here are sentries that delay the push until there are atleast 2 Immortals at which point it just gets harder and harder to break. I also struggled versus Gateway heavy Stalker Adept Sentry when I played versus Gungfupanda on Prion Terraces. I don't really recall what he went for in that game. I think it was a 2 Base Adept Stalker Sentry push? Finally there is 1 build that completly counters this. Dark Templar Rush. You have no lair and dt's will simply destroy your army so quickly that you will usually just instantly lose the game. TL;DR Basically if you know this build is coming. Go Dark Templar or Voidray. But do not forget that the Zerg can also change his plan going oracle (scout build)->VR->VR means the 2nd one is on the way as you're pushing, and P should be able to defend, no? I've only played people with slightly worse timing than you, so I ask.
It's not that simple. Even with 2 Voidrays the defense is 100% safe. It requires micro from both sides, overcharging the correct pylons, positioning your units to evade bile, warping in the correct units, walling off your Natural and others.
However yes, technically a perfectly executed Oracle -> Voidray Voidray build will beat this 100% of the time.
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Wow, I tried it today a few times on the ladder, and it worked every time. Even though it was a bad day for all other match-ups by means of win rate for me (not my A games today).
Interesting, how can the toss counter it. The opener is quite similar to my macro opener vs toss, so it gives an option to punish the toss for greed if I scout it early enough.
However, I'd like to know what is there to be afraid of.
I though early immortal zealot/adept composition can be scary, but I tried it vs someone who was going for a 2 base all-in with very early robo, and it still worked. I lost most of my roaches to his immortals, but the lings cleared his eco and finished the immortals, so he couldn't make a counter attack.
Does a void rays the only stopper for it?
Either I try it blindly and eventually find someone who counters it, or may be the people who gave it a shot can write here when didn't it work.
Thanks for the build Railgan.
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On July 09 2016 22:37 bulya wrote:
Wow, I tried it today a few times on the ladder, and it worked every time. Even though it was a bad day for all other match-ups by means of win rate for me (not my A games today).
Interesting, how can the toss counter it. The opener is quite similar to my macro opener vs toss, so it gives an option to punish the toss for greed if I scout it early enough.
However, I'd like to know what is there to be afraid of.
I though early immortal zealot/adept composition can be scary, but I tried it vs someone who was going for a 2 base all-in with very early robo, and it still worked. I lost most of my roaches to his immortals, but the lings cleared his eco and finished the immortals, so he couldn't make a counter attack.
Does a void rays the only stopper for it?
Either I try it blindly and eventually find someone who counters it, or may be the people who gave it a shot can write here when didn't it work.
Thanks for the build Railgan.
Technically, every Build can hold this allin. You can hold it with pure Gateway Units you just have to play well.
Focus the Ravagers, have a smart building placement, use forcefields to funnel / block lings / roaches, DPS them down with stalkers / adepts / sentries or whatever units you have.
The hardest counter is going straight DT's. Everything ele depends heavily on execution from both sides
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took me 3 days to figure out what u meant by TC
for the other clueless zergs, il take the embarrassment for u:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 30 2016 10:34 sc2chronic wrote:took me 3 days to figure out what u meant by TC for the other clueless zergs, il take the embarrassment for u: + Show Spoiler +
I wanted to make the Title shorter  Sorry about the mishap >_<
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Just saw TRUE did this variation of your build against Harstem in Dreamhack Montreal. He totally caught Harstem off guard and was able to win the game. There is a slight variation though, as TRUE made two gas, didn't make many roaches and reserve the gas for Ravager to deal with pylon overcharge.
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On August 14 2016 02:13 hunterxx wrote:
Just saw TRUE did this variation of your build against Harstem in Dreamhack Montreal. He totally caught Harstem off guard and was able to win the game. There is a slight variation though, as TRUE made two gas, didn't make many roaches and reserve the gas for Ravager to deal with pylon overcharge.
Nerchio also played that way against Scarlett in a ZvZ.
It's a different variation but works pretty much the same way
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EPT
