I need to find more information about this... I'm a diamond level Terran, I don't personally use locations at all. I keep hearing about them and it just never occurred to me to use them.
So My question mainly would be, does your apm, revolve around using locations? Is it part of your repetition? I just use my control groups for my units and buildings to go back to my base, or when i need to go to an expansion then i click on my minimap.
Poll: On a Scale of 1 to 5, How Important is using Locations?
(Vote): 1. They are no more useful than typical control groups, it's just preference. (Vote): 2. They are slightly more useful for unit/building management than just control groups. (Vote): 3. They serve a clear and unique role separate from unit control groups, they would help any player. (Vote): 4. There's a clear gap in skill between players who do and do not use location hotkeys, USE THEM! (Vote): 5. You simply can't get good without location hotkeys, literally every GM player uses them!
If someone like me who has played for years, and still doesn't use them, does anyone have advice for someone to start using them? Should I put a location at each base and force myself to cycle through them to do my tasks?
Very useful. One example that i use often is responding to a drop:
Camera hotkey to base that's about to be dropped
box middle of screen
camera hotkey to other base
rightclick minerals
you can perform some actions simultaneously because you're using the mouse AND the keyboard instead of using the mouse sequentially with a comparable action like a minimap click. More consistent and it takes less time and effort to execute the needed actions which is important for a game like sc2
I camera hotkey every base. As Cyro mentionned, it is easier to respond to drops that way. First base F1, Second base F2 and so on. Then in an instant I can go to the base that's getting dropped, faster than by clicking on minimap.
In my opinion the camera hotkey are very useful. I'm a plat zerg player and I use the camera hotkeys for injects, macro while attacking, and defending vs harasses. I started using them 2 month ago, I was gold then, and I advanced a lot since then (I changed the hotkeys so that it will be easier to use).
I'm far not a terran player, so I don't know how useful are they for terran. But I play prottoss unranked games (beating gold players from time to time), and they are useful for protoss as well. (macro and warping units while making a push, or binding a location to my proxy pylon or warp prism for faster reinforcements)
There are GM players who don't use hotkeys but have godly mouse accuracy. If they used location hotkeys, they would easy jump up another level and become much better players. It's an easy skill to learn and practice, there's no reason to ignore it except ignorance or stubbornness.
Just practice F2-F4 for your first three bases and make an active attempt to use them. It makes transferring workers easy, you can check all of your tech progress in literally 2 seconds, and it also helps if you need to defend on two fronts. Guaranteed will make a huge difference in the way you play.
When a sc2 player switches from camera location hotkey useage from no camera hotkey useage, it's likely they will improve efficiency in some area's and a slight dropoff in efficiency in other area's, especially in the start
For example:
A person who constantly clicks minimap to get around, might lose his ability to constantly see everything on the minimap because he is now using camera keys and he doesn't look at the minimap as often anymore.
However, if you have long term goals and want to become as good as possible, learning them and using them efficiently is almost always a good idea.
I just double click my hotkeys and it takes me to it, then mouse click mini map as well... i've hotkey'd location many times but rarely use the hotkey when under attack, space bar seems to get me there quickly as well.
I would start practicing loacation hotkeys by disabling the screen movement by mouse against ai... so you are forced to do it with hotkeys. You dont need to worry about the micro just send your units with a move towards the ai base....
I think it really depends on which race you're playing. I assume it's pretty useful as zerg for your injects. As terran, I don't really think they're necessary since army/building groups work just as well to replace the camera to key locations.
personal preference, i use one for my main and my opponents, but otherwise tons of top pros in korean and foreign scene never use them. literally comes done to preference just like other hotkeys
Comes down to preference imo. Some pros use them, some don't. I personally never use them because my Hotkey settings don't allow it. I could of course change them but after playing SC2 for almost 6 years and never changing my hotkeys during that time I'd rather not witness the disaster of me doing that
Use them, it's hard to put into words but camera hotkeys just streamline your play so much. You doubletap your hotkey to control your units then you press F1 to immediately pan to the exact center of your base, put guys into gas and you doubletap your unit hotkey to continue controlling your units. No matter how good you are at clicking the minimap you're not going to be as crisp and fast as the camera hotkey. You have to look at the minimap, move your mouse over there and aim where you want to look, even with separate base hotkeys you're still doubletapping instead of instantly being there.
I use location hotkeys for hatcheries only. Its useful for me to jump on specific hatchery to inject or if Im being dropped to jump on that hatch location.
They definitely allow you to do things faster once you got the muscle memory. I'm only gold, but I really feel the camera locations are giving me a big advantage over the other gold players that don't use them. Both for macro and reacting to harass.
I have camera locations on my bases (everyone does that I think) and over my rally point (not as standard?). Allows me to quickly move to or between bases without losing my selection or having to move the mouse for a slow precise click on the minimap (that will be half a screen off anyway, and is likely to need correction with side-scroll). This is useful for
- injects (mules for you) - building new expansions (you hotkey all bases at the start of the game) - maynard - running with workers from harass (location 1, drag-select, location 2, right-click minerals) - sending units to mineral lines for harass defence. - quickly pick up reinforcements (location, drag-select, shift-1, double tap 1)
Most of these are done even more often now in LotV.
To learn, I think the best way is to open a game vs easy computer and just force yourself to do all of the above with camera hotkeys very slowly and deliberately, making sure to go through the motions with minimum effort, don't move the mouse more than needed. Once you can do it right super slow, increase the pace bit by bit, maintaining full control and good form. After an hour or so you should have have it down pretty solidly at high speed.
Then for the coming 5-10 sessions or so, do a 10 minute camera location warmup against computer before you go on the ladder. Again start slow and with perfect form and then increase pace (which you will be able to do much faster after first time). That will make the muscle memory really stick.
Congratulations, you now are a lot faster to control what is going on in your mineral lines, which are the most important areas of the map.
100% amazing mechanic. That being said you can get very good without them.
So useful for maynarding drones to new expansions, taking new expansions, running workers from harass as well as responding to harass.
The keys aren't very important in a game without too much interaction, one where it's all mind-games and build orders.
However in a game with lots of harass or where things get very messy camera hotkeys enable you to do far more with your apm. Especially when dealing with multiple attacks/harass.
Previous post is a great explanation of how to learn it and it's many benefits.
I think it depends on your general playstyle. It was very useful for macro protoss with old chrono +warpin, may not be much with new one.
WhiteRa didn't use them (from what I used to see on his streams), but when a terran dropped and attacked from 3-4 different places he struggled to change the screen fast enough
Location hotkeys are excellent for minimizing actions required to perform an action.
For example
You can press F2 to go to your main base. 1 key = 1 action
Double clicking your command center hotkey to go to your main base. 2 key = 1 action
Click minimap to go to your main base. 1 key = 1 action (however, less accuracy, and takes longer to click the minimap then move your mouse cursor back to the center area of the screen to perform your next action)
I discovered the importance of camera location keys when i forced myself to play at a very spammy apm on the keyboard. I noticed i had periods where i would literally stop and just wait, and that was always for the screen to scroll.
So my advice is to try and play a vs ai game much faster than you normally do (like 50 - 100% faster than your normal) and see where you fail the most and that's what you can work on to improve your ability to do things quickly when you need to, which is what the keyboard is for really.
I got to masters without using them, was afraid to lose so much time learning it. I started to use them with lotv, it was easier process than i thought. In one week i started to use them efficiently. Only problem is i had to push my all army key far right on the keyboard which is sometimes needed. My thought overall is positive; it helps you on some cases and it is not that difficult to learn. I never use that for drop defence, i think clicking on red stuff on the minimap is quicker than thought process of which base you are being attacked. However it is so useful when you are taking a new base / transfering drones... so i recommend it
Location hotkeys, once you've gotten used to tham (circa 100 games) will feel like second nature to you - you wouldn't imagine playing without them anymore.
Have camera hotkeys bound to Tab, Q, W, E, R and Space. Took a bit to re-map the default abilities on those keys, and took months to get used to playing with it, but its the best thing I've ever done to improve my game. You never want to use your mouse to drag the view window between expansions.
Absolute must imo, even though there are good players out there that don't use them. For protoss particularly, it makes warping in reinforcements so so much faster
On May 08 2016 03:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: That's some funny poll right there, where the question doesn't match the selected options.
yeah they do match. the options are a gradient of how important you think camera locations are. 1 being the least and 5 being the most. The options reflect the same exact thing.
See that's the thing, if it was 12345, from not important to very important, it would match. or some variation thereof. Instead you have a bunch of soundbites as options. For instance 123 leads the question by delineating between unit control groups and hotkey groups and 4 has giant capital letters "USE THEM!" and 5 says "literally every GM player uses them!" when it very literally isn't true.
Which such leading answers, and usage of exclamation marks, and colloquial language it just looks like you made the poll to persuade someone to use location hotkeys. Which is all well and fine, but you don't get to just say they the questions and answer match. They don't. It's not disputable.
On May 10 2016 20:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote: See that's the thing, if it was 12345, from not important to very important, it would match. or some variation thereof. Instead you have a bunch of soundbites as options. For instance 123 leads the question by delineating between unit control groups and hotkey groups and 4 has giant capital letters "USE THEM!" and 5 says "literally every GM player uses them!" when it very literally isn't true.
Which such leading answers, and usage of exclamation marks, and colloquial language it just looks like you made the poll to persuade someone to use location hotkeys. Which is all well and fine, but you don't get to just say they the questions and answer match. They don't. It's not disputable.
You fail to realize that the poll is simple, on a scale from one to five, how important in your opinion camera locations are. The words that go along are just flavor text example of an opinion that someone picking that particular number would hold. It's only to help people visualize and be interested. This should be immediately obvious.
Are you really telling me you don't see how number 3's text makes you visualize a person who feels camera locations are more important than someone quoted as saying what you read in number 2 but less so than someone quoted as saying what you read in option 4? Really simple man
And yes obviously not all gms use them, the quote would be just an opinion from someone who is evangelical about the use of hotkeys, and may be found spouting off propaganda such as what you read in option 5. It's not meant to be true. It is there for you visualize someone who holds a 5 out of 5 opinion.
Personally I think cameras are useful but usefulness varies by race. I think for Protoss especially they are awsome since you can do things like set a camera to your warpin pylon to make reinforcing faster. Or set them to areas in your base for drop defense. For Zerg some people inject with them others use them for creep spread or drop defense. For Terran I think they are helpful but less impactful than mastering using manny unit hotkeys for multi pronged drop harass. still I think players of all races reach gm without ever touching them. Thier something that can make you more effecient but the gains arnt huge in most cases they just save a little apm if your good with them.
I'm a masters Terran and I got to masters without them. Currently however I use 2 f3 and f4. I find that location hockey's can be used to speed up building buildings so I usualy hotkey my ramp and my nat early on latter I switch one of these to open space in my main where I want to build production and wherever I want supply walls. If I where better id use them vs warprism drops but I'm not so I just use my reinforcements or hotkeyed units In my main. You can also use them to quickly raise depots vs run byes which is a life saver sometimes.
As for looking around I usualy click my minimap or double tap hotkeyed units. If I need to go to one of my bases I use the base hotkey. This way of doing things is not as effecient as cameras but it's more flexible and easier to learn. I also use 9 hotkeys for units+ structures though so I'm probably crazy.
On May 13 2016 16:12 washikie wrote: Personally I think cameras are useful but usefulness varies by race. I think for Protoss especially they are awsome since you can do things like set a camera to your warpin pylon to make reinforcing faster. Or set them to areas in your base for drop defense. For Zerg some people inject with them others use them for creep spread or drop defense. For Terran I think they are helpful but less impactful than mastering using manny unit hotkeys for multi pronged drop harass. still I think players of all races reach gm without ever touching them. Thier something that can make you more effecient but the gains arnt huge in most cases they just save a little apm if your good with them.
I'm a masters Terran and I got to masters without them. Currently however I use 2 f3 and f4. I find that location hockey's can be used to speed up building buildings so I usualy hotkey my ramp and my nat early on latter I switch one of these to open space in my main where I want to build production and wherever I want supply walls. If I where better id use them vs warprism drops but I'm not so I just use my reinforcements or hotkeyed units In my main. You can also use them to quickly raise depots vs run byes which is a life saver sometimes.
As for looking around I usualy click my minimap or double tap hotkeyed units. It's not as effecient as cameras but it's more flexible.
It's of course possible to get to GM without location hotkeys. It is possible to get to GM under a lot of weird restrictions if you so choose. Question is if it would have been easier to reach GM with location hotkeys. What you didn't mention, which is what I use the most (not said most important) at gold level is to build new expansions and transfer workers quickly.
Often when I move out to attack I want to expand behind, and it feels pretty safe to do so if I can go from screen on my army, location to closest base, select worker, location to exp, build exp, double tap army. Without location hotkeys you need to use the minimap twice (first to go to the right base to select a worker, then to go to exp) which can take quite a lot of time if you are not very fast and accurate with the mouse. In the meanwhile horrible things can happen to your army.
Same thing goes for worker transfers when you deplete your main or a new expo is up. If you are busy controlling your army or harass or whatever, it is very useful if you can get the transfer done quickly.
You're maybe fast enough with the mouse so it doesn't matter if you have to use minimap though. Also, I have moved my location hotkeys to WERT, so I can access them without moving my hand, which makes it even faster (again, with gold-level keyboard skillz).
You do not "need" anything past the mouse to play SC2.
Mechanical advantages like hotkeys allows you to play faster, but that's only important if you're trying to compete with others.
First people use simple hotkeys, to make creation of units and buildings more efficient. Then people start using army hotkeys, to make army movement more efficient. Then people start using building hotkeys, to make macro more efficient.
If you feel stuck in a tier, as if you can't get faster or more efficient than the MMR hell you are trapped in--and you are not using location hotkeys to get an edge, then its your own fault you're stuck in MMR hell.
On May 05 2016 09:09 BisuDagger wrote: Absolute must in SC1 and 2. Watch God at 15:30 http://youtu.be/0qDav56q_Ec
Holy crap that VoD. It's exactly these messy situations where you absorb wave after wave of insane aggression and harassment that require the camera locations. The constant running of scvs to different bases in an instant and splitting his units up is so sick. There's many ways you can play a style that specifically avoids you getting into these situations. A lot of the players who talk about how unimportant location hotkeys are those whom play an aggressive and timing-attack oriented style.
I'm a terran, so my main base doesn't need one since I can double tap my rax.
I just wish the keys were in an easier place to reach lol. Thanks for the idea's to everyone helping. I'm still in diamond at the moment, have been master before. It's painful to try to use location hotkeys for me even still. But I'll keep looking to utilize them And let you know if it's helping in my opinion
On May 18 2016 09:47 Pillowpants117 wrote: I'm a terran, so my main base doesn't need one since I can double tap my rax.
I just wish the keys were in an easier place to reach lol. Thanks for the idea's to everyone helping. I'm still in diamond at the moment, have been master before. It's painful to try to use location hotkeys for me even still. But I'll keep looking to utilize them And let you know if it's helping in my opinion
Double tapping rax 1) doesn't always give you vision of your mineral line. 2) changes your selection.
I recommend rebinding location hotkeys. I moved mine to WERT. I moved the few hotkeys that used those keys by default down to ASDFZXCV. I'll take some time to relearn, but well worth the time IMO. Play against comp a few times and force yourself to use the location hotkeys.
On May 05 2016 09:09 BisuDagger wrote: Absolute must in SC1 and 2. Watch God at 15:30 http://youtu.be/0qDav56q_Ec
Holy crap that VoD. It's exactly these messy situations where you absorb wave after wave of insane aggression and harassment that require the camera locations. The constant running of scvs to different bases in an instant and splitting his units up is so sick. There's many ways you can play a style that specifically avoids you getting into these situations. A lot of the players who talk about how unimportant location hotkeys are those whom play an aggressive and timing-attack oriented style.
Not using location hotkeys with an aggressive style must be true, as thats the only way i play. For example my standard tvz opening is Proxy 2 rax marines/bunkers, bunker at rax if they pool first, gas at the same time for some tank drops from wherever they push me too (it won't be far, worst case scenario I end up with a qxc bunker to work from near my rax).
Tvp I just mass bio on 5 rax w off reaper expo and pull just a few boys to overwhelm them. I attempt to contain them to 2 bases and show the power of the mule.
Tvt is hate. Rush tank drop and vikings off 1 base.
I'm never defending...Except in Tvp, toss can attack first no matter what i do, so I rush a widow mine first on case of Oracle or something it makes defense so easy.
On May 05 2016 09:09 BisuDagger wrote: Absolute must in SC1 and 2. Watch God at 15:30 http://youtu.be/0qDav56q_Ec
Holy crap that VoD. It's exactly these messy situations where you absorb wave after wave of insane aggression and harassment that require the camera locations. The constant running of scvs to different bases in an instant and splitting his units up is so sick. There's many ways you can play a style that specifically avoids you getting into these situations. A lot of the players who talk about how unimportant location hotkeys are those whom play an aggressive and timing-attack oriented style.
Not using location hotkeys with an aggressive style must be true, as thats the only way i play. For example my standard tvz opening is Proxy 2 rax marines/bunkers, bunker at rax if they pool first, gas at the same time for some tank drops from wherever they push me too (it won't be far, worst case scenario I end up with a qxc bunker to work from near my rax).
Tvp I just mass bio on 5 rax w off reaper expo and pull just a few boys to overwhelm them. I attempt to contain them to 2 bases and show the power of the mule.
Tvt is hate. Rush tank drop and vikings off 1 base.
I'm never defending...Except in Tvp, toss can attack first no matter what i do, so I rush a widow mine first on case of Oracle or something it makes defense so easy.
so you're not great, as those strategies are all subpar and uncapable of winning vs capable opponents, and stopped learning, practicing and improving to become a more skilled & well-rounded player capable of executing proper strategies.
On May 05 2016 09:09 BisuDagger wrote: Absolute must in SC1 and 2. Watch God at 15:30 http://youtu.be/0qDav56q_Ec
Holy crap that VoD. It's exactly these messy situations where you absorb wave after wave of insane aggression and harassment that require the camera locations. The constant running of scvs to different bases in an instant and splitting his units up is so sick. There's many ways you can play a style that specifically avoids you getting into these situations. A lot of the players who talk about how unimportant location hotkeys are those whom play an aggressive and timing-attack oriented style.
Not using location hotkeys with an aggressive style must be true, as thats the only way i play. For example my standard tvz opening is Proxy 2 rax marines/bunkers, bunker at rax if they pool first, gas at the same time for some tank drops from wherever they push me too (it won't be far, worst case scenario I end up with a qxc bunker to work from near my rax).
Tvp I just mass bio on 5 rax w off reaper expo and pull just a few boys to overwhelm them. I attempt to contain them to 2 bases and show the power of the mule.
Tvt is hate. Rush tank drop and vikings off 1 base.
I'm never defending...Except in Tvp, toss can attack first no matter what i do, so I rush a widow mine first on case of Oracle or something it makes defense so easy.
so you're not great, as those strategies are all subpar and uncapable of winning vs capable opponents, and stopped learning, practicing and improving to become a more skilled & well-rounded player capable of executing proper strategies.
why you telling us this?
Lol easily can get gm with like any build if you play it well.
I could not possibly imagine playing this game without camera locations. I have Shift + (F1 - F7) to set and F1-F7 to recall. In addition I made ~ (tilde) a camera location dedicated to army rallies.
When you use camera locations long enough you don't have to think about using them. You move with them as though they are second nature to you. Managing your bases and defense is effortless.
Look at it like this:
Momentary pain and discomfort for a lifetime of nimbleness. Your fingers will be quick and expressive like never before! Gain more manual control and efficiency than you've ever had.
3. They give unique features but aren't necessary.
I'm talking exclusively about Zerg tho.
Life didn't use location hotkeys but bound his queens instead to use the doube tap queen inject method and he was still OP af.
I do think it should be either the double tap queen inject method or location hotkeys for injects though as other methods take too much time. I guess spacebar/backspace injects are fine for midgame when your economy is set, but it's not for the early game.
On May 19 2016 22:25 MoosyDoosy wrote: 3. They give unique features but aren't necessary.
I'm talking exclusively about Zerg tho.
Life didn't use location hotkeys but bound his queens instead to use the doube tap queen inject method and he was still OP af.
I do think it should be either the double tap queen inject method or location hotkeys for injects though as other methods take too much time. I guess spacebar/backspace injects are fine for midgame when your economy is set, but it's not for the early game.
Are you saying that life didn't use location hotkeys at all?? Or that he didn't use them for inject?
I find the first one hard to believe, to the extent that I'll ask you for a source. The second I'm perfectly fine with.
On May 19 2016 22:25 MoosyDoosy wrote: 3. They give unique features but aren't necessary.
I'm talking exclusively about Zerg tho.
Life didn't use location hotkeys but bound his queens instead to use the doube tap queen inject method and he was still OP af.
I do think it should be either the double tap queen inject method or location hotkeys for injects though as other methods take too much time. I guess spacebar/backspace injects are fine for midgame when your economy is set, but it's not for the early game.
Are you saying that life didn't use location hotkeys at all?? Or that he didn't use them for inject?
I find the first one hard to believe, to the extent that I'll ask you for a source. The second I'm perfectly fine with.
On May 20 2016 13:38 Cascade wrote: This may sound a bit off, but that makes me lose a lot of respect for life! Imagine what he could've done with proper hotkey use!
Thanks for source though.
Yeah the source was that vid. ^^ But it really shouldn't make you lose respect. In fact, it should give you hope. Shows that the method doesn't really matter to be good at the game so long as you're comfortable with it. For example, we lambast the rapid fire inject method in high level play but Soulkey actually uses it. Also, the double tap queen inject method makes you spend less time in your base which is why Life is so good at micro and which is what makes his games super interesting to watch. So there is no "proper" hotkey use. There's just hotkey use that you feel comfortable with. Also, if the fact that he used a less common hotkey system was what let him improve in other aspects to be a world class player, that should be motivational.
EPT
