EPT
[G] Zerg versus Zerg Overview - Page 2
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straycat
230 Posts
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On December 26 2015 20:32 straycat wrote: Which is your first guide on lotv? Can't seem to find it. Here. | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
On December 12 2015 16:55 blade55555 wrote: Hm just go +1 carapace then +1 attack, try to do ling runby's and expand while denying his. If you think he's trying to tech to hive/infestors, attack him before he can get that as you will have a muta lead and have a window to cripple/kill him. I had a 40 minute game today where I went for this comp, then into Ultras, but never transitioned out of ultra infestor into viper / lurker / hydra / ling / spore / infestor. So short story is I lost that game after having the entire map on ruins while he was on 4 bases. Worst game ever, so bad. But yeah in the ultra late game you have to go into the lurker spore comp, dont have a choice, remember that | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
Against early pool you take Overlord at 18 and stop drone production which is actually vital as you can produces 6 lings + Queen once the pool completes. That's actually what was tripping me up. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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NotFOXAnonymous
9 Posts
I'm new here and plz excuse my bad english. I've been struggling on ladder ZvZ, and i was trying to find BO to hold those early pool. I find the theorical part of your post fantastic and i download the replays to see how in fact you hold those aggression : - when to engage fights - when to move spine - how to split drones - etc ... But guy, i was so disapointed !!! The replay are mostly vs diamond players which are doing non optimised builds (like 13ovi 14gaz 14pool ???) or are miss-microing pretty hardly. So could you provide some replays vs master/GM who goes for 14/14 or 13/12 ? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qn68s85p8ex3qyg/December Replay Pack.rar | ||
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NotFOXAnonymous
9 Posts
Will watch it tomorrow ! | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
I've actually had success with going 3 hatch before pool once I scout my opponent going for hatch first. I then take bane before speed to defend and my increased production can easily hold any attack while leaving me at a distinct advantage for the mid game. What's your opinion on 3hatch against scouted hatch first? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:44 IcemanAsi wrote: I've been using this build at plat-diamond level and my ZvZ win rate is insane, around 90%. I've actually had success with going 3 hatch before pool once I scout my opponent going for hatch first. I then take bane before speed to defend and my increased production can easily hold any attack while leaving me at a distinct advantage for the mid game. What's your opinion on 3hatch against scouted hatch first? It's very good. I actually started trying it out after reading this post and I find you can easily hold ling/bane all ins if you bring your queens to your third + baneling nest first. It's really strong, but of course can only do it when scouting hatch first  | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On January 08 2016 16:24 blade55555 wrote: It's very good. I actually started trying it out after reading this post and I find you can easily hold ling/bane all ins if you bring your queens to your third + baneling nest first. It's really strong, but of course can only do it when scouting hatch first Hot Dang! Senpai noticed me! :-D Can you post a replay? My biggest concern is when to take the 2nd and third queens and when to take 2nd gas? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10689 Posts
If you scout a 1 base and the player just pulls his drones off gas and opens speedling expand (Hatch at 21 / 22 Supply), it is impossible to know what your opponent is doing and you will most likely end up over compensating to stop the attack. I believe that Pool first openings are just safer / stronger right now in ZvZ. Opening 18 / 18 / 18 is a huge risk and very greedy in ZvZ, even 17 / 17 / 17 can be easily punished by proper pool / ling / baneling micro. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 09 2016 01:13 GGzerG wrote: So one thing that is not explained here is how exactly do you know how to deviate from 17 to 18 hatch on a 4 player map? What if you don't scout your opponent immediately with Drone and are not sure what is coming? When do you send Drone to scout? Then you would blindly 17Hatch opening / style? 14/14 & 13/12 can still win on certain maps, certain positions, even with proper Hatch first openings. I don't think it is safe at all to open Hatch first in ZvZ blindly. If you scout a 1 base and the player just pulls his drones off gas and opens speedling expand (Hatch at 21 / 22 Supply), it is impossible to know what your opponent is doing and you will most likely end up over compensating to stop the attack. I believe that Pool first openings are just safer / stronger right now in ZvZ. Opening 18 / 18 / 18 is a huge risk and very greedy in ZvZ, even 17 / 17 / 17 can be easily punished by proper pool / ling / baneling micro. I hatch first 100% of my zvz's. You can hold a 13/12 ling/bane on all maps no problem with proper micro. I send drone on 14 supply and I use it so I know how to react. This doesn't effect when I place my hatchery (unless I scout him first and see he's hatch firsting). The scout is so I know what kind of pool he's doing. If he's doing hatch first I know I don't need to concern myself with early defense. If I scout 14 pool, then I know I need to get a baneling nest first (as his speed will finish well before mine even if I go 17g/17p). Then if I scout 13/12 I know to place a spine asap, baneling nest and make only lings. I rarely die to 13/12 (and when I do it's 100% my fault). Close positions central protocol and Ulrina are bad for this style (I hate both of those maps so i vetoed them). My winrate for zvz went from 30% to 60+% and I had a 64% in kr last I checked. On January 09 2016 00:33 IcemanAsi wrote: Hot Dang! Senpai noticed me! :-D Can you post a replay? My biggest concern is when to take the 2nd and third queens and when to take 2nd gas? So I can add a few replays later. Essentially this is my timings: 14 drone scout 18 hatch 19 hatch 19 gas 19 pool 23 overlord queens as soon as pool finishes + baneling nest + some lings for scouting. Pull Queens asap to 3rd base and as long as you micro decently you'll hold any 2 base ling/bane all in easily. Also this only works on maps with easy to take 3rds, maps like central protocol, lokerek (idk name) with hard to take thirds this is a bad idea. | ||
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Alstreim
16 Posts
First, thanks for the amazing guide. Second, can you upload some of your replays of this month for us? Best regards, Alstreim. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qn68s85p8ex3qyg/December Replay Pack.rar | ||
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Applesauce13
United States6 Posts
I even accidentally used it versus a 14/14 once and managed to hold it. I'm not sure if it's because you found a ridiculously robust build or my opponent just didn't do it right, but i figure it's worth posting. Also thanks to blade for keeping my knowledge of the meta at least kind of up to date :D | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
Obviously OP is making this build work at much higher levels so the problem is with me and not the build. Here is a recent example which is off-build but kinda shows what I'm talking about ( I'll add a more precise example tomorrow ) I go muta into hydra, he gets tons of banes and whipes the hydras out, now here I don't even get lurkers, which I guess are what supposed to help against that but from experience this happens even with the lurkers, maybe I'm not making enough lurkers or I'm positioning them wrong. I don't know. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6788732 | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
I watched it (your lucky I am in the mood  ). In the game you linked, you shouldn't do a hydra or lurker transition in a muta war. Since the both of you went Muta's, you should be doing standard muta vs muta into hive and vipers, not try to go into hydra/lurker.As a fun note, you were in a great position in this game, almost always ahead 5+ mutalisks and a better drone economy. If you had kept going Mutalisks and instead got an infestation pit + hive, you win this game easy unless you make a horrible engagement (like muta vs muta under spores/queens). Just really weird to go from Muta to Hydra then trying to go into roach/hydra. If you had skipped Muta and then gone into roach/hydra from the beginning that's fine, but don't ever go muta into roach/hydra vs another muta player. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On September 05 2016 10:12 blade55555 wrote: Hey Ice, I watched it (your lucky I am in the mood ). In the game you linked, you shouldn't do a hydra or lurker transition in a muta war. Since the both of you went Muta's, you should be doing standard muta vs muta into hive and vipers, not try to go into hydra/lurker.As a fun note, you were in a great position in this game, almost always ahead 5+ mutalisks and a better drone economy. If you had kept going Mutalisks and instead got an infestation pit + hive, you win this game easy unless you make a horrible engagement (like muta vs muta under spores/queens). Just really weird to go from Muta to Hydra then trying to go into roach/hydra. If you had skipped Muta and then gone into roach/hydra from the beginning that's fine, but don't ever go muta into roach/hydra vs another muta player. LOL Oh man all those poor poor MMR points lost while trying this hydra transition against muta :-D No hard feeling but maybe the OP could be a bit clearer on the muta reaction. Which of course leads to the question, when do you drop infestation pit ? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
.But when you feel ahead is when I would put an infestation pit or when you know your opponent is being turtley or you are ahead a base. Those are the best times. It's always a kind of do you think you can do it and not die? If yes, drop the infestation pit. If no, don't drop the infestation pit until you can say yes. | ||
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