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Hi everybody, here is my second guide for Legacy of the Void! This one will feature an overview of ZvZ and will go over a build order I do and how to react to certain situations. For the most part the build order is the same regardless of what the opponent is doing. This will feature replays of holding 13/12, 14/14 and various other all ins while going Hatch first. I will showcase the build versus another hatch first and a build versus early pools. If you want to know how to do early pools, the replays below will have plenty of them!
Build Order versus Hatch First
- 13 – Overlord
- 14 – Drone scout
- 18 – Hatch First
- 18 – Gas
- 18 – Spawning pool
- 20 – 2nd overlord
- Spawning pool finishes – Metabolic Boosts + queens
- 50 gas – Baneling nest
- 36 – 3rd hatchery
- 4:10 – Lair
- Lair finishes – Spire
- 10-12 Mutalisks – Hydralisk Den (Roach warren if you prefer)
- Hydra den finishes – Morph into Lurker den
- Lurker den finishes – Make Lurkers
- Get Hydra upgrade and go hydra/ling/lurker
Build Order versus early pool
- 13 – Overlord
- 14 – Drone scout
- 17 – Hatch First
- 17 – Pool
- 17 – Gas
- 18 – overlord, Save larva
- Pool finishes – Spine crawler + queen + lings
- 100 minerals – baneling nest
- 36 – Lair
- Lair finishes – Spire
- 300 minerals – Take 3rd
- 10-12 Mutalisks – Hydra Den (roach warren if you prefer)
- Hydra den finishes – Morph into Lurker den
- Lurker den finishes – Make Lurkers
- Get Hydra upgrade and go hydra/ling/lurker
Further Elaboration on the build
The drone scout is based on how you will react once your pool finishes. If your drone scouts a hatchery first, you should make 4 lings, sending 2 to your opponents base. All other larva should be used towards drones (unless opponent is sending over a lot of slow lings). If your drone scouts an early pool you will be making a spine crawler asap in your main mineral line and pump out lings from both hatcheries.
Now the third base timing can change depending on how the game is going. If the opposing Zerg is doing mass ling off of 2 base, you will delay the third base and opt for a faster Lair timing and do a 2 base mutalisk build. Your lair in this case should start around 3:30 or 36 supply around there. Of course you will be making lings to defend with banelings. You would take a 3rd in this case once you feel you can take it.
Now onto the Mutalisks themselves. As long as your opponent is going Muta’s as well, you will just use them for map control. They will be used for map control and to deny map control from your opponent. Make sure to take out any overlords/overseers near your base while killing scouting lings. It’s better if the other Zerg isn’t aware of Lurkers coming out as you can use this to your advantage (hold position lurkers). From here on you will be going hydra/ling/lurker or if you choose roach/ravager/lurker.
Defending Early Pool
When going Hatch first versus any early pool, you will want to use all larva on Lings, 1 queen, 1 Spine and a baneling nest. Make sure to have your first overlord near the natural area so you can see when he takes his hatchery.
Now you can keep the hatchery alive, assuming he isn’t doing the baneling all in version. At first you will want to try and defend the natural (make sure you have the ling numbers first or some drone support). If you see that the opposing Zerg isn’t making a natural base or you see banelings being morphed, sacrifice the natural.
Once you see the ling/bane coming into the base, spread your workers and lings out as best you can. Have the spine + queen focus fire on the banelings. Once the banelings are gone, take out the opponent lings with your queen + lings (and banelings if you still have them). Retake natural once you can and proceed with mutalisks.
Defending Roach/Queen Nydus
With the new Nydus buff this is a very popular build, especially if the opponent suspects Mutalisks. This is actually not very hard to prevent until you can get lurkers (or roach/ravager if that’s your preference). Make sure to have good overlord spread, in any areas where you don’t have vision, send a ling if you can’t get an overlord in time.
If a Nydus is going up in your base or near it, send your ling/bane over there. As soon as it pops, detonate 3 banelings and the Nydus will die before any units can come out. Make sure to be very aware of another Nydus somewhere close. Once you have Lurkers out, feel free to let his nydus finish while putting out hold position lurkers until his army goes right on top of them.
Roach/ling/bane Push
This can be a game ending push regardless if Mutalisks get out if not properly scouted. You should always be sending zerglings to the opponent’s base to check his unit count. If you see a lot of roaches with lings, making spines immediately. Once the push gets there try to use your own banelings to take out his banelings. Try to engage with your lings at the very last second as they are crucial to stopping the roaches from walking straight up to your main and destroying your economy while Muta are on the way. If defended properly you should be able to take your third (assuming he kills it) and be ahead.
Defending Ling/bane aggression
This one is very common in Legacy of the Void. The best way to defend is to always have at least 2 banelings at your natural and 1 spine crawler. Always sending speedlings across the map is very important because the sooner you scout a ton of lings, the sooner you can adjust by making more banelings while teching. This really comes down to micro and map awareness, if your speedlings don’t see anything the overlord in the middle of the map should. If the Zerg is being that aggressive and doesn’t seem to be teching, feel free to throw down an extra Spine. Eventually you will get Mutalisks and have the game in the bag.
Opponent scouts Lurker Den morphing
I added this piece as this is very important if your opponent scouts this. From my ladder experience, a common response is to bank minerals/gas and go mutalisks themselves. You do not want to be caught off guard and all of a sudden 30 mutalisks are coming out. With your mutalisks, scout every inch of his base. Look for any spire, watch his unit composition (is he making hydra’s or are you only seeing drones/lings and queens being made?). This can giveaway what your opponent is doing.
If you scout a spire, do not make lurkers and focus back on Mutalisks or switch into Hydralisk/lurker. This is dependent on how you want to proceed, I personally would go into mutalisk play and make sure I have an upgrade going. Make sure to keep scouting in case the other Zerg cancels the spire.
The Mid-Game
All right, assuming there has been no game ending damage, you have hydra/ling/lurker and the opposing Zerg doesn’t seem to be aggressive. Once the Hydralisk upgrade is done, start moving out slowly with hydra/ling/lurker. Send a ling forward to see his army composition, make sure to have an overseer in front of your army so you don’t lose to potential hold position lurkers.
Once the fighting beings, try to engage with Lurker support, if the Zerg keeps backing off, leap frog a few lurkers at a time. So let’s say you have 8 Lurkers, grab 4, unburrow, move forward, burrow and repeat until you are sieging a base or the engagement starts. If your opponent has Lurkers then everything is going to be very positional based. Since you will have Hydra and left over Mutalisks, snipe his overseer if possible. Make sure to keep your overseer forward so you can see where the opponent’s lurkers are.
I would recommend keeping 1 Lurker at a base so that a Ling run by can’t really do damage or a small roach counter. This isn’t a must, but I highly recommend it. On this, use your own lings to do counter attacks or deny bases from your opponent when attacking.
Replays
All right here are a bunch of zvz replays facing various styles. From facing early pools to roach/queen/nydus to roach/ravager/lurker vs hydra/lurker, etc. If you want to see how to properly do an early pool these replays will have them.
ZvZ Replays
ZvZ Holding Early Pools
Thanks for Switch for looking over this.
If you want to see how I come up with my builds or test feel free to check out my stream twitch.tv/blade55555
I don't know when I will work on the ZvP guide as I am still messing with builds in that match up. Thanks for reading and if you have any questions let me know!
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Awesome. I'm just getting back into the game after a long hiatus so these guides of your are perfect
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Ahh thank you for this. This matchup so far feels totally random, and even though my winrate is okay, this is exactly what I was looking for: A structure that seems to be safe against very early pools.
What do you do for scouting on 4 player maps? Cross your fingers, or do you have a plan if your drone scout is late?
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On December 07 2015 16:34 theunabletable wrote:
Ahh thank you for this. This matchup so far feels totally random, and even though my winrate is okay, this is exactly what I was looking for: A structure that seems to be safe against very early pools.
What do you do for scouting on 4 player maps? Cross your fingers, or do you have a plan if your drone scout is late?
So worst case scenario you already place down your spawning pool, but that won't change anything. You will see the lack of expansion and know it's an early pool. So you will do the same plan, except getting Baneling nest first before speed. You'll still have the same saved larva, although your spawning pool may be at 18 instead of 17 which you can still hold with good control.
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How do you play lurker against ravager ? Anytime i try to use lurker in ZvZ i jsut can't place them because ravager can just snipe them. And when i play ravager against lurker i feel the same. I just snipe lurker and a+clic when all lurkers are dead. I prefer go T3 and add some viper + infestors.
Is there any tip to know when you play lurker/hydralisk against ravager ?
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Blade, extremely grateful for the time and work you put into sharing your lessons learned with the community. I'm sure this will assist me in future games
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On December 07 2015 21:10 Magus.421 wrote:
How do you play lurker against ravager ? Anytime i try to use lurker in ZvZ i jsut can't place them because ravager can just snipe them. And when i play ravager against lurker i feel the same. I just snipe lurker and a+clic when all lurkers are dead. I prefer go T3 and add some viper + infestors.
Is there any tip to know when you play lurker/hydralisk against ravager ?
I believe one of the replays has a hydra/lurker vs roach/ravager, but you need to spread lurkers in this case just enough so that ravager bile shots won't 1 shot multiple lurkers at a time.
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If you are facing mass muta, at what point do you consider getting a viper or two? Or would you rather just get hydras?
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Hm that is a good question, but you would definitely want to switch to Viper not Hydra. I haven't been in a zvz yet to hive tech in legacy, so I am unsure, but Viper sounds the best since it has a nice parasitic bomb 
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You have a very well written guide here. Kudos.
My only problem here is that I feel "build orders" are too ineffective when it comes to teaching lower league players about ZvZ. You have highlights explaining specific and very common scenarios in ZvZ such as ling bane aggression or early pools, but the way your guide works is that you're teaching players "this build works do it every time" with very little variation. ZvZ is such a mechanical match up that is also very fluid.
For example you have listed under your build order versus early pool that you get lair at 36 supply but in your build order versus hatch first you have it listed to get lair at 4:10 supply. What is the difference? If a player loses x amount of drones, should he just continue the build and go lair at 36 - x supply? What if the ling bane aggression persists as your spire is building and you need to morph in a lot of banelings to defend? Does a player need to wait until he still has 10 - 12 mutas or does he cut mutas down to 6 - 8 because of the gas loss he had earlier?
ZvZ is a very tricky match up to teach and I personally build orders aren't the proper thing to be teaching. In my opinion, a Zerg build order should never go past (im gonna use hatch first as an example):
17 Hatch
18 Gas
17 Pool
@100 Pool 2 - 6 lings, 2 queens, ling speed
@50 Gas baneling nest
And even then, your opponent might be doing something to throw even that off balance. I think ZvZ has too many variables to teach it this way. What do you think?
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Israel672 Posts
Thanks for the guide!
Do you not recommend going for 17 pool on smaller maps?
I found 17hatch into 17pool as a tough ( possible, but tough ) hold against 13/12.
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On December 10 2015 02:21 eSuBuildings wrote:
You have a very well written guide here. Kudos.
My only problem here is that I feel "build orders" are too ineffective when it comes to teaching lower league players about ZvZ. You have highlights explaining specific and very common scenarios in ZvZ such as ling bane aggression or early pools, but the way your guide works is that you're teaching players "this build works do it every time" with very little variation. ZvZ is such a mechanical match up that is also very fluid.
For example you have listed under your build order versus early pool that you get lair at 36 supply but in your build order versus hatch first you have it listed to get lair at 4:10 supply. What is the difference? If a player loses x amount of drones, should he just continue the build and go lair at 36 - x supply? What if the ling bane aggression persists as your spire is building and you need to morph in a lot of banelings to defend? Does a player need to wait until he still has 10 - 12 mutas or does he cut mutas down to 6 - 8 because of the gas loss he had earlier?
ZvZ is a very tricky match up to teach and I personally build orders aren't the proper thing to be teaching. In my opinion, a Zerg build order should never go past (im gonna use hatch first as an example):
17 Hatch
18 Gas
17 Pool
@100 Pool 2 - 6 lings, 2 queens, ling speed
@50 Gas baneling nest
And even then, your opponent might be doing something to throw even that off balance. I think ZvZ has too many variables to teach it this way. What do you think?
Hm I definitely disagree with you. That kind of logic would apply to all match ups then (hellion runby's for example, adepts). If the game is hectic you need to adjust as needed, but if you are defending ling/bane without taking economic damage then you proceed as normal.
You should always have a game plan and if x happens how will you adjust? You should delay timings or maybe do a faster timing depending on what's going on. In essence I disagree with you on the build order not being good for zvz. I use both build orders to the tee and if I take damage than I adjust as needed.
Also the difference in build order timings is because versus an early pool you won't be droning as much (especially when pool finishes) because of his early pool. When he hatch firsts on the other hand then you can drone and all that. That is why the timings are different.
On December 10 2015 02:59 IcemanAsi wrote:
Thanks for the guide!
Do you not recommend going for 17 pool on smaller maps?
I found 17hatch into 17pool as a tough ( possible, but tough ) hold against 13/12.
Only map I would recommend that maybe is Ulrina. I vetoed that map on day 1 and I imagine 13/12 is insanely hard to hold on that map.
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Hey blade,
I just wanted to thank you soo much for this Guide!
I have been struggling since beta with ZvZ and it's nice to have a general guideline.
It's still tough to hold some early pools but I'm working on it. My ZvZ went up from 33% to 43% just from reading this :-D (my other MUs are 60% so this was really holding me back).
Could you please add some more replays of early pools, especially when the opponent is trying to transition. I always end up behind :-/
Greetz J4CK
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Blade is back!, question about gases, how you take gases in LotV? in HotS was like 2nd gas after lair, and 3rd and 4th after spire, same here?, the other day i was doing a 1-1 roach timing with 5 gases but i ended with like 2k min, i guess i need 6 gases now; i still feel lost in LotV
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On December 10 2015 08:45 J4CkTwist wrote:
Hey blade,
I just wanted to thank you soo much for this Guide!
I have been struggling since beta with ZvZ and it's nice to have a general guideline.
It's still tough to hold some early pools but I'm working on it. My ZvZ went up from 33% to 43% just from reading this :-D (my other MUs are 60% so this was really holding me back).
Could you please add some more replays of early pools, especially when the opponent is trying to transition. I always end up behind :-/
Greetz J4CK
Sure! You ask for such easy things to find phew (90% of my zvz's are them early pooling). I'll upload some more when I get home.
On December 10 2015 08:58 PSosa wrote:
Blade is back!, question about gases, how you take gases in LotV? in HotS was like 2nd gas after lair, and 3rd and 4th after spire, same here?, the other day i was doing a 1-1 roach timing with 5 gases but i ended with like 2k min, i guess i need 6 gases now; i still feel lost in LotV
Hm so once I start lair I get 2nd + 3rd gas, once lair is about halfway I get 4th gas. Now this is when I go mutalisks, if I were going roaches I would probably stay on 3-4 gas until I had my 3rd base was saturated before getting 5th and 6th gases.
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What is the game plan once you spot that your opponent is opening mutas as well? Is it just a muta war until the game ends? Do you ever try to tech to Hive for vipers?
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On December 12 2015 10:30 Tachion wrote:
What is the game plan once you spot that your opponent is opening mutas as well? Is it just a muta war until the game ends? Do you ever try to tech to Hive for vipers?
I haven't had enough long muta wars to know. Every zvz I have played, the person that went hive lost the game before Vipers due to falling behind mutalisks while teching.
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On December 12 2015 11:15 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 10:30 Tachion wrote:
What is the game plan once you spot that your opponent is opening mutas as well? Is it just a muta war until the game ends? Do you ever try to tech to Hive for vipers? I haven't had enough long muta wars to know. Every zvz I have played, the person that went hive lost the game before Vipers due to falling behind mutalisks while teching.
Do you have any general tips or anything for how to play out a muta vs muta ZvZ? That seems to be the majority of my games now and I seem to suck at it :D What do you prefer in regards to static defense and upgrades in that situation?
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Hm just go +1 carapace then +1 attack, try to do ling runby's and expand while denying his. If you think he's trying to tech to hive/infestors, attack him before he can get that as you will have a muta lead and have a window to cripple/kill him.
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