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On December 03 2015 22:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition? Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine.  Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
It really depends for the lurkers. I have found them to be amazing life savers at times as they are sooo good defensively while teching to hive. It can also slow a Terran push down a bit as well if you can get them out soon enough or after you clear out the first earlyish push.
I have found Lurkers extremely useful though when attacking a Terran 4th base. Their usefulness really shines in situations like that as Terran's can't support their PF being destroyed when there are 8 lurkers in their way, let alone engaging a PF as Lurkers out range them.
They aren't a necessity and ling/bling/corruptor -> ultra will work just fine, I just find Lurkers pretty useful in my testings as it. Would be interesting to see how it works for you and am curious how it works out!
On December 03 2015 21:45 Magus.421 wrote:I'm eagerly waiting for the ZvP guide, you make me sad 
Unfortunately my ZvP is kind of shit right now and I haven't found the best way to play versus Protoss. Sorry
On December 03 2015 18:22 LoneYoShi wrote:
As a terran bio player, I'm terrified of lurkers. I was pretty happy about seeing them only rarely, but I fear this guide is going to make my next ladder session much harder ! :-D
Good guide though, lurkers seem like an interesting unit to play with and to play against !
Just one question: do banelings and lurkers really synergize that well ? I mean banes force splits from the terran, which in turn will lower the effectiveness of the lurkers. You have to get banelings to survive the early terran pushes, I get that, but once you do have your 10 lurkers out, do you keep making banes ? Wouldn't a lurker/ling/corruptors composition be almost as efficient (maybe with a few more lurkers) while also allowing you to have more gas for the ultra transition ?
I normally try to stop myself making banelings once Lurkers are out, but you do still need them to a point to engage the Terran bioball. When flanking or engaging Banelings still prove useful and once Terran knows Lurkers are out they are going to split anyway.
On December 03 2015 16:55 Tachion wrote:
Thank you for this! I don't know what it is about lotv, it's not even liberators alone, I just seemed to have a way more difficult time going muta/ling/bane against T lately. Had an abysmal win rate trying to get it to work like in hots, then gave up and tried this and it's fantastic. hold fire lurkers are like ranged baneling bombs, so much fun and I'm winning a lot more as well.
Happy to hear it! Yes I was finding muta/ling/bane is terrible versus Terran now of days. I even tried it yesterday as a curiosity and blech just got rekt the Mutalisks felt useless, specially when Terran had 4 liberators out. I wish I could do both styes or muta into lurker as that would be more fun but Corruptors will do!
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On December 03 2015 22:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition? Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine. Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
IMO, Lurkers are key to this style of composition.
Think about the detection units for Terran - either scans or ravens. Good micro can force the Terran to pop their scans, and corruptors can easily take out the Ravens. Unburrow time is relatively fast so even if they pop scans you can micro away the units who are in danger in most cases. With a nice spread on lurkers, if they want to go the scan route it will severely slow their push down at the least, in which time you have a chance to re-up your army.
Without Lurkers, this composition is much easier to deal with. Aside from going Muta to force some anti air (which is an uphill battle in LotV) Zerg has not had the power to actually control the opponents moves & force the opponents hand in past iterations of SC2. Lurkers actually force a response from your opponent. Zerg is not just a "reactive" race now, either if you go with roach/rav pressure, or lurkers. If you do not use either of these new units, Zerg is back to being only a reactive race, but the other races now have an easier time pressuring you than they did in past SC2 iterations.
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I mean this is no Ravager cheese but when that inevitably gets patched I'm definitely going to try this out.
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BLADE!!!!! Welcome back, super glad to see you writing something again! The HotS builds were my central pillar for a long time. Big fan.
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Awesome guide, sending much zerg love your way!
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Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army?
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On December 07 2015 10:59 Damusson wrote:
Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army?
So I go ranged because of that exact reason is roach/ravager is a pretty big part of your army for a decent amount of the game. It's probably fine to get melee instead, but I feel like the extra broodling damage isn't that big of a deal.
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Now that there is less incentive in getting a cloud of muta as a kill switch or for base trading, can I keep air upgrades to zero? I realize that zerg is so gas hungry right now that 5 base gas is still takes a long time to max out.
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You don't have to get Air upgrades, I would get at least +1 attack so they do better against liberators. Not a must though.
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Can i see some VOD, just like Liquid`Ret, I see lukers make no sense in this BO. When u go Lbing +corrupter u can actually deal with all Units of T and also deny drops. So why we need to make Luker with a ton of gas...
Btw, you saved my Ladder point Blade, many thanks
P/s: Im not using your build with units combile: L,B, and Cor. I actually using gas for quick upgrade ASAP and it worked just fine. But when i checked my replay, I always have low supply than T. Is it the problem of my macro skill? And sorry for my bad Eng
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Concerning 3 rax reaper I think your answer is pretty much the worst idea you can give. A baneling bust is not working in most of the maps where 3 rax reaper is good. You can pretty much delay indefinitively the BBust because of grenades and because speedlings is much less of a counter for reaper than it was before. If the 3 rax reaper guy is active on the map poking your speedling and your morphing zergling its even worst.
The best answer has been given by Nerchio vs Marinelord. Pop in a few roach defend and expand profit of your 3 base economy and win with ultras. I play 3 rax reaper for more than two years now and especially in Lotv whenever I see someone counter allining me its pretty much free win.
The best response is an advantage in tech/economy.
I never faced yet a nydus counter allin but I would guess that if you absolutely want to counter allin 3 rax reaper it might be your better bet.
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Nice guide, thanks a lot Blade, glad to see you're back! Will test it on ladder soon
Still waiting for ZvP guide though, in this match up roach/ravager/hydra into ultra/hydra/viper (PB for air, BC for ground) seems fine for now.
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On December 07 2015 20:09 klup wrote:
Concerning 3 rax reaper I think your answer is pretty much the worst idea you can give. A baneling bust is not working in most of the maps where 3 rax reaper is good. You can pretty much delay indefinitively the BBust because of grenades and because speedlings is much less of a counter for reaper than it was before. If the 3 rax reaper guy is active on the map poking your speedling and your morphing zergling its even worst.
The best answer has been given by Nerchio vs Marinelord. Pop in a few roach defend and expand profit of your 3 base economy and win with ultras. I play 3 rax reaper for more than two years now and especially in Lotv whenever I see someone counter allining me its pretty much free win.
The best response is an advantage in tech/economy.
I never faced yet a nydus counter allin but I would guess that if you absolutely want to counter allin 3 rax reaper it might be your better bet.
Well it really depends on the Terran. If you kill the first group of reapers with speedlings then yes it works. If he retreats back with the reapers then you are correct that it won't work. Most Terrans I face when they do this build (well until this week) were doing a do or die 3 rax reaper strategy. Once I killed their main group of reapers nothing they could do against a baneling bust.
On December 07 2015 19:56 TheMon wrote:
Can i see some VOD, just like Liquid`Ret, I see lukers make no sense in this BO. When u go Lbing +corrupter u can actually deal with all Units of T and also deny drops. So why we need to make Luker with a ton of gas...
Btw, you saved my Ladder point Blade, many thanks
P/s: Im not using your build with units combile: L,B, and Cor. I actually using gas for quick upgrade ASAP and it worked just fine. But when i checked my replay, I always have low supply than T. Is it the problem of my macro skill? And sorry for my bad Eng
Sure you can try to hold it while teching to Ultra's, but in my experience it can be insanely tough. Lurkers make it so, so much harder to engage into you then if you wait until Ultra's. I had a game yesterday where Lurkers came out at a perfect time, allowing me to hold off the Terran's push while waiting for Ultra's to be created (the cavern was still being made). Much more cost effective then ling/baneling as Lurkers AOE doesn't go away until the unit dies and is not suicidal .
As a note, in my replays I always seem to be behind in supply as well and am not sure if it's normal or not. No real pro zvt's to compare as they go roach/ravager so their supply is inflated by 2/3 supply units all game.
On December 07 2015 23:47 Muxtar wrote:Nice guide, thanks a lot Blade, glad to see you're back! Will test it on ladder soon Still waiting for ZvP guide though, in this match up roach/ravager/hydra into ultra/hydra/viper (PB for air, BC for ground) seems fine for now.
Yeah ZvP will be awhile unfortunately until I figure it out. Lucky for you though Pig released an excellent ZvP guide so feel free to take a look at that!
This zvt style is just my style (as most of my guides are pin pointed). I am not the biggest fan of roach/ravager due to drops and how slow/clunky they are compared to ling/bane. I also don't want to rely on roach/ravager as I feel eventually Terran will either figure it out or Blizzard will nerf them.
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On December 07 2015 11:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 10:59 Damusson wrote:
Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army? So I go ranged because of that exact reason is roach/ravager is a pretty big part of your army for a decent amount of the game. It's probably fine to get melee instead, but I feel like the extra broodling damage isn't that big of a deal.
Sweet, I thought that might be the case. Thanks!
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What are the standard map vetoes for zerg? Should I just make a point of trying to learn all of the maps?
EDIT: Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread. Mods feel free to delete this :/
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Lately I see many pro zergs (ex. Leenock, Soulkey, Armani) going for fast muta into mass ravager/ling with ranged upgrades in ZvT. But when I play the composition on the ladder, I can't really see the advantage of that composition. Roach/ravager does much better when hitting for a timing, and ling/bling does much better with handling drops and dealing with skirmishes. So why does the pro zergs use that specific composition of ravager/ling? It's not like they are saving gas for the hive tech; they mass 20+ ravagers or so, and they don't go for fast hive tech either.
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Hm I haven't seen that too much, but I also haven't been able to watch as many pro zvt's as I would like.
That seems odd to go from muta to ling/ravager when it should be muta/ling/bane into faster ultra. Dunno very odd, but I know Ravagers are really strong right now so that might be why? Honestly couldn't say.
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Awesome guide as usual blade! Can you tell me, how much camera hotkeys do you use for your bases? Do you hotkey ALL your camera locations(8)? Also, which combinations of keys do you use? Thanks again for all the help and content you provide for the starcraft community!
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I can certainly answer that for you.
Here is my hotkey setup:
1 main army
2 special units (Lurkers)
3 Air (mutas/corruptors)
4 Spellcasters (infestors/vipers)
5 main hatchery
6 natural hatchery
7 third hatchery
8 all hatcheries
I use camera hotkeys for inject, F2 Natural, F3 Third base.
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EPT
