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Well, at least this season it looks like we do not need 5 vetos :D
My impressions so far :
Catallena : NOP. Way too much, too much attack paths. This kind of circular map with "around the clock" expand pattern is for me a no-go with mech (this is shared with merry go round), it exposes too much surface to drop, and force you to extend way too much to defend all your bases. You have to defend both sides of your "expand arc" while being able to respond to drops, and denying any attack from the center of the map, and at some points your expansion is going to "collide" with his, creating way too much fronts to defend.
Nimbus : Relatively easy to get 3 bases, but way harder after that, and the 3rd can be a bit tricky to defend in some situations. Require more testing
Deadwing : omfg. 5 bases for free. My first game on it was a 1 hour and 15 minutes long TvZ on 6 bases versus 9 or 10 . . . The layout is great for mech, but it is easy to become trapped in your too easy to defend position. Beware of backdoors too !
Foxtrot : haven't played it yet, but the layout is interesting and offers a lot of positions for defense and offense.
My vetos for now are Catallena, Merry go round, and Nimbus (i plan to get rid of this one later)
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On July 08 2014 20:17 Lyyna wrote:
Catallena : NOP. Way too much, too much attack paths. This kind of circular map with "around the clock" expand pattern is for me a no-go with mech (this is shared with merry go round), it exposes too much surface to drop, and force you to extend way too much to defend all your bases. You have to defend both sides of your "expand arc" while being able to respond to drops, and denying any attack from the center of the map, and at some points your expansion is going to "collide" with his, creating way too much fronts to defend.
Just to add a small point to this, Catallena actually has a spawn position imbalance. The top and bottom main both have pretty big airspace to cover. The left main does not, because it so close to the map border. That's what you get, when you insist on putting maps with an odd number of spawn locations in.
I was just fiddling around with the map, trying to find out what expand pattern to use, when I realized that huge airspace -> insta Veto (I already hate to build 360° turretrings on King Sejong Station).
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Netherlands5725 Posts
Don't the new Widow Mines oneshot interceptors now?
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happier to see your replay pack than to see IEM replay pack =))
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On July 27 2014 16:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
Don't the new Widow Mines oneshot interceptors now?
havn't they always done that?
how much health do interceptor have?
EDIT:
Lyyna I just saw one of your "classic TvZ" and was thinking don't you die to a 1/1 roach aggression skipping tanks? I havn't seen all your replays, just picking them out bit by bit so I might've missed ify ou have such a game 
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On July 27 2014 16:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
Don't the new Widow Mines oneshot interceptors now?
They do in the whole area now, and are sick vs carriers for this reason ! Enjoy killing 20 interceptors with each shot
On July 27 2014 18:46 MoonFan wrote:
happier to see your replay pack than to see IEM replay pack =))
Thanks <3 <3
On July 27 2014 18:46 KonanTenshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 16:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
Don't the new Widow Mines oneshot interceptors now? havn't they always done that? how much health do interceptor have? EDIT: Lyyna I just saw one of your "classic TvZ" and was thinking don't you die to a 1/1 roach aggression skipping tanks? I havn't seen all your replays, just picking them out bit by bit so I might've missed ify ou have such a game
They've 40/40, and mine now does 40 + 40 in the whole area instead of a tiny circle :p
Well, 1/1 roach attacks is this kind of thing you either see coming and defend easily, or don't see in time and die to no matter what. But when you know they're coming, going behind a wall or in a choke (retreat / lift 3rd if needed) with like 8 hellbats + 2 thors + 3-4 banshees + tons of scv repairing does the trick
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Wow nice tvt on foxtrot against biomech into air!
I love your chat hehehe.
Once when I tried this I died to a massive notscouted thor switch that just walked over me. Obviously I had to many vikings but what is the correct answer to mass thor?
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your Country52797 Posts
On August 25 2014 22:48 Helikptrfisk wrote:
Wow nice tvt on foxtrot against biomech into air!
I love your chat hehehe.
Once when I tried this I died to a massive notscouted thor switch that just walked over me. Obviously I had to many vikings but what is the correct answer to mass thor?
Wondering this too, I have had problems with this sort of mech against a sudden explosion of thors.
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both tanks and yamato absolutely destroy thors.
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Just to make it clear, you're talking about facing a mass thor mech player when going from biomech into skyterran, right ?
Or is is the other way around, a mech player going for his raven/viking(/bc) transition and facing a biomech player going for thors ?
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I go with your style. Going mech into viking/raven with tank and turret support.
Then the other terran suddenly walks on me with 200/200 thors
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First, general stuff about the tank/viking/raven composition (which'll be added to the op) :
Especially nowadays, i tend to make way slower transition towards also. The thing is that, even before, i wouldn't transition to raven without it being the "right" move. Actually i don't even like to call it a transition, but more like an addition to my existing composition, since i believe that mech requires you to have balanced units numbers with high synergy which get added when needed
When is it the right move ?
First thing to ALWAYS take into account, I know my opponent actual composition (what he has on the field), and what is going to come afterwards (economy lvl, upgrades, infrastructure, general game flow) : It means that i would first actively make sure to know he's going for thor heavy play before any kind of transition, and aiming for a counter composition instead of doing the transition. It also means, for example, that if i see that his actual or soon-to-be composition requires me to get ravens, this condition before the switch becoming suddenly a reason to actively do it
The conditions :
- So, obvious from what i just said : your opponent goes for air. Then you need the ravens, more vikings, maybe some thors to help
- Otherwise, when the game is stabilizing. This one is pretty vague, usually vs mech it's because we're both securing tank lines and tons of gas, meaning i can cut ground units and get ravens to win more positions, or to prepare for his own air switch, and vs bio, it means i also got enough tanks, and can safely get a couple of ravens to help fight the increasing amount of marauders, to reduce my expensive tanks loss, and prepare the air fight.
So, when it comes to the mass thor thing
First of all, if you can, do whatever possible to reduce his concave. Thors are big and slow ; obvious thing. If they can get in a proper line and charge into you, it can get bad, EXTREMELY quickly. Try to force a fight into a choke ; try to pick off front or side thors when he's moving (tanks are actually an ok marauder-like unit there :p) ; and very important, make sure to kill low health thors asap. They're like ultralisks. A red health one become a friend for life, and we'll come back green for the next fight... Especially when losing a fight, this is a priority, it can make the difference between holding the line with your next round of units and losing the game.
When it comes to your composition, well, at this point you should have maybe a couple of ravens / banshees (at least, for me, the 1 of each i make early game), vikings, and a mix of hellbat/tank/thor.
Once again, thors are like ultras. With mech, you need two things : A big buffer, some meat to stop the charge, and behind this, something to actually deal damage. Getting a couple of thors of your own is always good, they do both, but not much ; when fighting thors with tank-based army, you want to have a superior firepower concentration and thors are terrible with that.
Your goal is to make sure your tanks have as much free time as possible to fire, and this is done in various ways :
- Banshees / vikings with PDD. To be honest, this is a pretty nice way to win time, especially if you have a couple of ravens already. Thors shoot air slowly, giving you a couple of free tanks volley.
- Flying your vikings above the thor ball before it engages your ground : again, thors, especially the ones at the back, will lock onto the vikings, losing some time. More tanks shots.
- Moving your hellbats / landed vikings (yes, there you want landed vikings ! They're relatively small, and have the ability to focus fire thors kinda well) forward to break his charge, then backwards. Yes, you can kite thors. Anyway your hellbats won't be able to really connect (2 lines of thors shooting at hellbats...), so instead what you want to do is to make sure only the first line of thors can shoot by staying far from them.
About your tanks, both sieged and unsieged can be ok. But usually, in big scales battles, sieged is better ; unsieged is more for low scale fight where your tanks can actually maneuver and focus fire.
Overall, the "right" way to counter it is to 1) have stuff that is not raven (=don't make the transition too early), 2) making sure to abuse the thor's size and AI to gain more time for your tanks to do their job. BCs can also be a solution depending of the game, actually.
Anyway, do not hesitate to show a replay so i can help more !
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On August 26 2014 03:02 Lyyna wrote:
Your goal is to make sure your tanks have as much free time as possible to fire, and this is done in various ways :
- Banshees / vikings with PDD. To be honest, this is a pretty nice way to win time, especially if you have a couple of ravens already. Thors shoot air slowly, giving you a couple of free tanks volley.
- Flying your vikings above the thor ball before it engages your ground : again, thors, especially the ones at the back, will lock onto the vikings, losing some time. More tanks shots.
This sounds a little gimmicky or at least a somewhat hard to pull off. What do you think about using the Raven energy for throwing Auto-Turrets in front of the Thors to stall them (instead of throwing PDDs and moving Banshees/Vikings in range)?
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On August 26 2014 04:14 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 03:02 Lyyna wrote:
Your goal is to make sure your tanks have as much free time as possible to fire, and this is done in various ways :
- Banshees / vikings with PDD. To be honest, this is a pretty nice way to win time, especially if you have a couple of ravens already. Thors shoot air slowly, giving you a couple of free tanks volley.
- Flying your vikings above the thor ball before it engages your ground : again, thors, especially the ones at the back, will lock onto the vikings, losing some time. More tanks shots. This sounds a little gimmicky or at least a somewhat hard to pull off. What do you think about using the Raven energy for throwing Auto-Turrets in front of the Thors to stall them (instead of throwing PDDs and moving Banshees/Vikings in range)?
Yes, it is hard to do. Actually, it might not even work that well nowadays with the new thor AI (since all of them are going to destroy everything that flies in seconds, instead of having only the ones in the back shooting air units while the front is getting demolished by your ground.)... but i haven't really had this case presents itself since the patch
For the pdd/turret thing, well, i prefer to throw PDD because otherwise i might lose way too much ravens / vikings to the thors volleys ; one bad clump and suddenly you lost those precious 10 vikings that could have cleaned the ground... turrets takes a while to dump, requires to expose your ravens, means your air units will be quickly blasted out of the sky, and can be quite hard to find room for in a thor vs hellbat/Tank/landed viking battle
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Thanks for the thorough answer.
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I've had a lot of roach openers in TvZ kind of similar to this one.
http://drop.sc/385353
Is this a response to my reapers or is it some kind of meta right now to do a roach pressure similar to that.
Why is mech looked down so heavily on in the ladder? Right now I play 1-2 games then I quit because it sucks to get raged/BMed at during every game I play...
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Not sure about the roach thing, zer always liked to throw in a couple of weird roaches stuff sooo..
Your opening is a bit weird however ; you shouldn't go for a that fast second factory, force you to cut stuff and doesn't bring much early
About the BM being looked down.. well, there is a couple of reasons for it (for people reading, don't take it badly, just some assumptions) :
- Mech has always be a strategy traditionally associated with low APM players (hi Panzer General, i love you <3), which is "bad" is this game where APM are considered some kind of skill measurement
- Mech isn't something you see often usually, and unusual play tends to be frustrating
- Mech draw the game away from the traditional mechanic-based games we see normally. It is not about macro'ing a parade push, not about microing a bunch of tanks and marines against muta/ling/bling, it is not even like a standard deathball, it is something quite apart from all of this....
- Mech tends to be associated with long, boring games (even when it does produce great games people will just remember THE bad one..).
- Also, a certain vaguely popular streamer makes sure mech gets permanently associated with BM, rage, and "i won't ever attack you lol noob"
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On August 27 2014 23:40 Lyyna wrote:
About the BM being looked down.. well, there is a couple of reasons for it (for people reading, don't take it badly, just some assumptions) :
- Mech has always be a strategy traditionally associated with low APM players (hi Panzer General, i love you <3), which is "bad" is this game where APM are considered some kind of skill measurement
- Mech isn't something you see often usually, and unusual play tends to be frustrating
- Mech draw the game away from the traditional mechanic-based games we see normally. It is not about macro'ing a parade push, not about microing a bunch of tanks and marines against muta/ling/bling, it is not even like a standard deathball, it is something quite apart from all of this....
- Mech tends to be associated with long, boring games (even when it does produce great games people will just remember THE bad one..).
- Also, a certain vaguely popular streamer makes sure mech gets permanently associated with BM, rage, and "i won't ever attack you lol noob"
yeah, fuck these noobs that use the last letter in RTS, APM all the way right? =/
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Hmm what's so strange about my opener? I really like it because I like the early BF it gives me. What would you recommend to change/do different`?
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EPT
