|
Austria24417 Posts
On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:Show nested quote +Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end. Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game. He had his army cornered at his third, blanketed by EMPs, and was in an incredibly shitty position. He managed to get 3 storms off that killed > 50 supply of TaeJa's army, putting him ahead. As soon as TaeJa noticed how much of his army got stormed, he GG'd. And then there's also the part where you say it was perfect play from HerO, when I've already demonstrated multiple times that it was not even close to perfect play. His storms were beyond subpar save the last 3 storms of the game, and his late game army control was pretty lackluster. He managed to make up for it with those last 3 amazing flank storms, but really HerO's late game control, upgrading (even when he had his upgrades going in the late game he continually forgot to chronoboost them which is a big deal considering he was behind on his 3-3 which should, as I said, NEVER happen). Claiming that was perfect play is not only diminishing what truly perfect play is, it's being blind to how he really played. The mid game was basically inconsequential on how the game played out in the end. Even though at the very end of the game TaeJa had a bigger army and was poised to take a 4th and kill HerO's army, those last few storms ended it right then and there. Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game.
He wasn't behind. He was ahead in every aspect except one - Taeja's army could still take fights. Those storm flanks were the last piece of the puzzle.
I explained why he was behind on upgrades a few times, "should never happen" is the same silly statement it was before. The game demanded it to happen. Had he gone for continued upgrades then his third base would have been denied forever and Taeja would have been given a much easier way back into the game. After that he chronoboosted the hell out of his upgrades. When Taeja attacked him at the end, HerO was only one attack upgrade behind Taeja. That's completely fine considering he's got a much better economy and all he has to do is kill Taeja's army once - which he does. His lategame army control was great to accomplish what he wanted. Which, AGAIN, is not to kill Taeja's entire army in a head on fight or snipe every viking with storms or blink stalkers. That's a bonus that Taeja shouldn't allow (and doesn't). All HerO wants to do is delay Taeja for as long as possible to buy time for his upgrades and his templar flank to be set up.
Saying that the midgame was inconsequential is plain wrong, it's the biggest and most important aspect of this game that you keep ignoring. It's the reason why HerO's upgrades were late, it's the reason why Taeja's economy is worse and it's the reason why HerO is out on the map aggressively and doing all that storm zoning, etc.
Taeja hit a very very aggressive 2base mass viking/bio timing that other terrans would probably pull SCVs with. HerO defended but Taeja pulled out while his army was still strong enough to abuse the map and threaten drops, form concaves in the open field between natural and third if HerO moves out. So imagine if HerO starts 2/2 right away. Those upgrades do NOTHING for him until they're finished, Taeja gets a third base up and HerO can't break out because Taeja's army could still trade well against his. So what does HerO do? He opts to delay upgrades, continues colossus/templar production to move out and take that third base. Taeja has a decent army so he starts a third CC and continues upgrading while threatening drops to keep HerO pinned back. Once HerO stabilizes he moves out - by that time his upgrades are behind but his third base is up unchallenged, his army has stronger tech to its disposal (storms and colossi to keep Taeja from engaging) and HerO uses that semi-contain to take a 4th base while Taeja can't. HerO has that contain up for so long that Taeja is forced to attack him. HerO uses him army as aggressively as possible to delay Taeja's push because HerO gets ahead more with every second that passes (he catches up in upgrades, additional production from his 4th base kicks in, templar flanks are set up and gaining energy). Taeja eventually manages to push HerO back to his base where HerO takes a defensive position.
That's when the storm flanks come in and Taeja dies. Now tell me what exactly HerO could have done better except for those 3 high templar that randomly wandered off and didn't matter in the end.
|
On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
What sort of statement is that. Similarly you could say without the emps the game would have been blah blah blah. Or without marines the game would have been blah.
I would argue that it was the early and mid game decision making that made hero's game incredible. I wouldn't mind seeing this from the terran perspective mind you i.e. what decisions the terran made based on the flow of the game. e.g. saw X opening from toss therefore did Y because of blah blah. The analysis does have a tendency to make it look like terran does whatever they want and it's up to protoss to adapt.
|
United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:Show nested quote +Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end. Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game. He had his army cornered at his third, blanketed by EMPs, and was in an incredibly shitty position. He managed to get 3 storms off that killed > 50 supply of TaeJa's army, putting him ahead. As soon as TaeJa noticed how much of his army got stormed, he GG'd. And then there's also the part where you say it was perfect play from HerO, when I've already demonstrated multiple times that it was not even close to perfect play. His storms were beyond subpar save the last 3 storms of the game, and his late game army control was pretty lackluster. He managed to make up for it with those last 3 amazing flank storms, but really HerO's late game control, upgrading (even when he had his upgrades going in the late game he continually forgot to chronoboost them which is a big deal considering he was behind on his 3-3 which should, as I said, NEVER happen). Claiming that was perfect play is not only diminishing what truly perfect play is, it's being blind to how he really played. The mid game was basically inconsequential on how the game played out in the end. Even though at the very end of the game TaeJa had a bigger army and was poised to take a 4th and kill HerO's army, those last few storms ended it right then and there. Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
Blue hammer post incomingggggg!!!!!
Okay, so first off, this game looks really straightforward and pretty simple: TaeJa does some aggression, HerO deflects it; TaeJa does a massive 2-base attack which HerO defends quite well; HerO takes a 3rd base while attempting to not die to mass MMM; HerO lands huge storms and completely annihilates TaeJa's army. I understand how you can look at this game and think there's nothing special about it. But that's why we do analysis; we're looking for deep, clever decision-making. Everything from HerO using his first stalker to poke the natural to his army movement in the late game all pave a clear path to a singular idea, a strategic goal.
As stated in the conclusion, HerO's goal this game was to combine a series of marginal advantages into a big win. TaeJa played incredibly well and should have won like 4 times lol, but HerO's solid scouting and proper responses completely shut down TaeJa's pressure and allowed him to accrue a bunch of small advantages. Specific examples: TaeJa kills ONE probe with his marine/mine drop pressure; TaeJa's 2-base "all-in" attack gets denied with almost equal trades (had storm been finished in time, it would have been a massacre); HerO is able to get a 4th base up safely while denying TaeJa from getting his; finally, HerO manages to beat TaeJa's army (even without INSANE storms, he was already really far ahead at this point). The storms at the end were merely the tipping point of HerO's advantages which turned into a decided lead. You are wrong.
The missed storms you refer to are storms which only a god like TaeJa could have dodged. Like, literally, they were the most fucking incredibly impossible storm dodges ever. The fact that TaeJa takes no damage while crossing the map is a testament to his sheer skill in maxed army control. As far as upgrades go, HerO cut his upgrades after 1-1 to get storm faster to deal with TaeJa's 2-base "all-in". Due to his unfortunate lack of observers, he had to play more conservatively and intelligently chose to delay going back into double upgrades in case TaeJa continued to pressure with his ~100 supply army. Continuing double upgrades would have definitely been a mistake and would have led to death. You are wrong.
As for the final storms...I don't think you understand PvT at all. In order to beat a huge terran army like that, Protoss needs to land a few decent storms to soften the army before attacking into it. In 2011, this was less necessary because Protoss was ALWAYS ahead by at least one upgrade. However, in the land of the present, if the Protoss tries to amove into a Terran army with ghosts, they're gonna get slaughtered. The fact that the storms were game-ending were fortunate, but the way in which HerO set up his storm flanks and intentionally drew the ghosts out of position was no matter of "luck". Even if the storms had been decent, but not killed all of TaeJa's army, HerO could then engage the weakened army with his main army and still come out with a huge lead (being already one base ahead). I want to re-iterate that HerO was not "cornered" in his base, but chose a specific place for his army to sit to draw the ghosts out of position and set up a natural concave for his templar flanks. Read the article again if you're unsure what I'm talking about. HerO was up one base and in every other way, even with TaeJa at the end of the game; the way he dealt with TaeJa's maxed out push with ghosts was calculated -- from the way he drew his army all the way back to how he landed his storm flanks -- and designed to further his advantages in the game. You, sir, are wrong.
Bottom line: It is moronic to say that HerO played horribly and just "got lucky" at the end. That's gold level analysis and probably where you belong.
|
All hail the mighty blue hammer post!
|
Whatever, I'm not even going to bother arguing anymore; it's a waste of my time.
Also, I may as well note that I not once said that I thought HerO played badly; just that he didn't play nearly as well as the article makes it out to be. He played nowhere near perfectly (throwing away 3 HTs for nothing, having way too few observers, taking pot shots on his colossi constantly) and it's ridiculous that you guys exaggerate it that heavily. I'm also much better than gold league, but it doesn't really matter to me how you guys view my skill; it's basically irrelevant to the point and it's hilarious that you resort to calling me a gold league Terran despite having literally zero information about me.
And you're still wrong about the storms at the end being the "tipping point." They were literally the fucking deciding factor in the game. Had he not split his army like that, he would've died. He didn't have enough observers and if TaeJa had just engaged his army straight up it would've been game. It was a smart tactic, but it was a last resort. TaeJa just didn't watch his army anywhere near as closely as he should've and that's why he lost. I think it was more a blunder on his end than a genius move on HerO's part, but alas, you can't dodge every storm.`
|
I didn't read all the post/comments, bur I agree with what MtlGuitarist97 said :D
Taeja was leading the whole game. You can argue that hero couldn't do anything but defend during the middle game, that he did a perfect decision making, still he never went into a position where he could have been dangerous for Taeja.
If Taeja hadn't lost that much army at the end of the game on thoses storms, the game would probably have continued, it was b4 vs b4, with even tech and upgrades.
Be honest guys, or just listen to the casters on the vod, they were giving an advantage to Teaja and were a bit shocked when he typed gg.
|
holy hell gameheart is horrible for replays
This was quite a lengthy, verbose write-up for a rather mundane PvT. Still, the game is a great example of how late-game army control is so damn important; check your corners for templar, or pay the price...
rofl @ the big bold-font blueposter personal attack
|
United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2014 09:07 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter. What sort of statement is that. Similarly you could say without the emps the game would have been blah blah blah. Or without marines the game would have been blah. I would argue that it was the early and mid game decision making that made hero's game incredible. I wouldn't mind seeing this from the terran perspective mind you i.e. what decisions the terran made based on the flow of the game. e.g. saw X opening from toss therefore did Y because of blah blah. The analysis does have a tendency to make it look like terran does whatever they want and it's up to protoss to adapt.
It was definitely a beautiful game from the Terran perspective too. I ALMOST thought about doing a followup article from TaeJa's perspective, but I figured that might be a little overboard. It was just so freaking incredible to watch how all of his pressure built on top of each other in what seemed like seamless transitions. TaeJa's 2-base "all-in" attack would have outright won him the game versus anything else; in the end, he still hit right before storm was finished, traded decently, and was able to start a 3rd CC and 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished. It was beautiful.
Anyone who doesn't see the beauty in this game really needs to go back and watch from an analysis perspective. People looking at it from viewer perspective are not going to think it's interesting or "inspired" or whatever, but there is so much going on under the surface here. I cannot overstate how thin HerO's advantages were that slowly turned into a decisive lead. I personally learned a lot from writing the article and I think there's a lot of game-winning information in here.
|
On January 17 2014 10:16 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Had he not split his army like that, he would've died.
So what you're saying is that Hero's split prevented him from dying? Sounds like good decision making to me.
He didn't have enough observers and if TaeJa had just engaged his army straight up it would've been game.
But he didn't do that. The fact that Taeja could never engage Hero straight up was strategy on Hero's part.
Here are some other meaningless statements:
Had Hero not defended Taeja's 1st drop he would have died.
Had Taeja eaten some rough storms when Hero was containing him he would have died.
Had Taeja not retreated before storm finished on his 2 base push he would have died.
Thinking about the game in that way is just not useful. If that's the way you think then reading game analysis is not for you.
|
On January 17 2014 13:24 PineapplePizza wrote:
holy hell gameheart is horrible for replays
*Old GameHeart
|
The 'red mist' looks blue-purple to me o_O
|
Italy12246 Posts
After the blue hammer in comes the red hammer:
please stop shitposting.
That is all.
|
On January 18 2014 02:38 Hollow wrote:
The 'red mist' looks blue-purple to me o_O
I think it was referring to blood
|
OMG you are Awesome! Thank you for your Awesome article! =) 
|
How retarted that people think Hero got lucky. Taeja did a two base all in and failed because Hero scouted well like you're supposed to. And MtlGuitarist, just from reading your analysis it's enough to notice your level of understanding of the game. I wouldn't say you are gold level player, but I'm sure you're not masters or gm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
