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Power Overwhelming - PvP Immortal/Archon/Chargelot

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Power Overwhelming - PvP Immortal/Archon/Chargelot

Text byEsportsJohn
Graphics byNaganis
December 1st, 2013 22:36 GMT

(Wiki)Liquipedia

Contents


Introduction

Early Game
Transitioning into the Mid Game
Passive Openings
Opening with Immortals
Immortal Drops
Dark Templar Drops
Stargate Harassment

Taking the Third and Transitioning
Expanding Behind Light Pressure
Harassment-Based Expansions
Early Expansions
No Expansion, YOLO All-in
Mid Game

Specific Mid Game Scenarios
Playing a Mirror (IAC vs. IAC)
Exploiting the Colossus (IAC vs. Colossus)
Dismantling Stargate Play (IAC vs. Void Ray)

Late game Scenarios

Introduction


Protoss vs. Protoss in WoL was primarily characterized as a matchup filled with all-ins or – if the game actually made it to the late game – gigantic laser wars between mass colossus armies. With the addition of the mothership core in HotS, expanding and staying alive has become easier, allowing for much more solid two-base play. Colossi can also now be dealt with using tempests and -- to a lesser extent -- time warp. As a result, the immortal/archon/chargelot mid game has emerged dominant in this matchup due to its all-around strength and flexibility. Unlike colossus or void ray compositions, immortal/archon/chargelot is a quick, nimble force capable of putting on lots of pressure and securing tons of map control in the mid game while setting up a solid late game.

Immortals are absolutely key in the modern immortal/archon/chargelot composition. In WoL, immortals were primarily to defend early attacks and to round out your composition when nearing max. With the “new school” compositions and playstyles in HotS, however, the immortal's role has changed considerably. Colossus openers are now either delayed or skipped altogether, leaving the robotics facility open for immortal production; in turn, with faster expansions and greater income, allow immortal production early in the game without the risk of falling behind in the colossus count. Immortals have a high damage output versus armored units, scale well with upgrades, have decent range, and do quite well against both colossus and archons. Immortals actually beat archons one on one. In short, they can be considered “a lot of power in a small unit”. This makes them the ideal addition to the classic zealot/archon mixture and a very powerful unit all game long.

It must be stressed that immortal/archon/chargelot is a mid game composition. The goal of using such a composition is to take a stable early game and transform it into an economically sound late game with plenty of map control and all the necessary tech to counter your opponent. As such, immortal/archon/chargelot should be thought of primarily as a transitional composition connecting the early game to a poweful late game.

This guide willl cover how to play the mid game correctly -- assuming both players have an expansion -- how to deal with other compositions, and how to smoothly transition into the late game. In the interest of space, “Immortal/archon/chargelot” will be abbreviated as “IAC” for the remainder of the guide.

Editor's note: No replays have yet to be officially released for WCS Season 3. As a result only VOD links are included in this guide. Also, some images are screen captured from these VODs and cropped. We apologize for the poor quality of any images collected in such a way in this guide.

Early Game


There are several viable ways to play PvP in the early game depending on: which tech route you open with, how you react to your opponent's build, and how you plan to take your natural. Almost any build will work for setting up an IAC mid game. As long as both players expand, all you need is a robo and forge to easily transition into an IAC mid game. Since most builds converge to this point, any build ranging from a one-gate expand to a DT rush to a three-gate/stargate pressure can lead into IAC.

Transitioning into the Mid Game


There are a few key ingredients to IAC that serve as the basis for your mid game. The order in which you get them is fairly dependent on the way you open up and how your respond to your opponent, but as long as you have all them, you can go IAC in the mid game:

  • Immortals
  • Forge for attack upgrades
  • Twilight Council for charge
  • Templar Archives


Using this production and tech framework, you can do several aggressive variations by swapping the order of various units and tech. The most common among these are; immortal openings, immortal drops, dark templar drops, and stargate harassment.

Passive Openings


While IAC is a strong early and mid-game composition, some players like to open up very passively in order to set up a stronger timing later on in the game. The goal in using a passive opening is to develop all the key pieces of your mid game as quickly and as economically as possible.

Once both players have expanded and stabilized, you want to put down a forge and start +1 attack as soon as possible. Depending on the situation, you may have to build an immortal or two to hold off pressure, but otherwise your robo should be fairly idle while you saturate your natural mineral line. Delaying immortal production allows you to get upgrades, charge, and extra gateways faster.

Charge and templar archives are generally started around the same time. When you reach two-base saturation, you'll start to pool excess minerals which you can use to build additional gateways. Most players build three gateways as they take the natural, then go up to a modest six once they reach two-base saturation and use minor aggression to secure the third. If you're looking to hit a strong two-base timing, you can instead opt to go up to eight gateways and forgo or delay a third nexus. Alternatively, players will sometimes add an extra gate after establishing their natural – a total of four – for additional safety against potential two-base all-ins. Almost all chronoboost should be used on probes unless you need immortals and gateway units to defend an attack.

When opening in a passive macro style, it's important to get quality scouting information. Make sure you have two to three sentries for hallucination scouts and at least one observer (or a DT) poking around the map for vision. There are a few key things to be scouting for:

  • your opponent's tech
  • the number of gateways
  • the presence of a third nexus
  • the location of your opponent's army


Vod Genius vs duckdeok on Bel'Shir Vestige Set 3 From WCS EU Ro8.

Opening with Immortals


If you opt to continue immortal production after expanding, you can set yourself up for several two-base timings with immortal/blink stalker, immortal/DT archon, and immortal/warp prism compositions. Against players who delay extra gateways -- or skip on immortals of their own -- these attacks can outright win the game.

The infamous “nexus snipe” immortal push on Bel'Shir Vestige.

Opening with immortals doesn't necessarily mean you need to commit to a timing attack. You are, however, potentially putting yourself behind when you favor immortal production over faster upgrades and extra gateways. As a result, you should try to use your heavy-hitting immortals to force at least some economic or tech delay from your opponent. Often times, a feigned pressure or light poke with immortals can force enough of a response out of your opponent to catch you back up economically while also giving you the time and freedom to get important tech up or take an earlier third base. Another form of useful light pressure is dropping immortals using a warp prism, detailed further below.

When opening immortals, you should spend most of your chronoboost on them while saturating your natural a little more slowly. The natural gases are also delayed due to the minerals you're spending on immortals.

Going immortal against blink openings is usually considered mandatory. In these cases, you can set yourself up for very powerful two-base counter attacks with a handful of immortals and little to no extra tech. On the other hand, immortals are useless against a stargate player, especially one who is using phoenix to harass. Opening with immortals is strongest against a passive and greedy robo player; it can kill outright players who opened with DTs, blink stalkers, or gateway pressure and didn't do enough damage while you fast expanded.

Vod HerO vs Naniwa on Bel'Shir Vestige. Set 1 From IEM NY Ro16.
Vod (Chinese) Top vs HuK on Bel'Shir Vestige Set 2 From WCS AM Ro32.
Vod MC vs BabyKnight on Bel'Shir Vestige. Set 2 From WCS EU Ro16

Immortal Drops


When opening with immortals, you have the option to do light harassment with a warp prism and two immortals. The primary purpose of this pressure is to force stalkers and slow down your opponent's economy as well as potentially killing off workers or outlying buildings. Sometimes it's possible to even pressure the natural with your army while dropping in the main to force your opponent to split up his army; if your opponent doesn't split the army well, it's possible to do some serious damage to either the natural or the main.

Most players will chronoboost out two immortals followed by a warp prism as soon as the robo finishes and immediately send the warp prism across the map to harass. When dropping immortals, you should look to abuse any terrain -- such as dead space between the main and natural -- or building placement, but always make sure to leave a retreat path so you don't get caught by a group of stalkers. Control is key when doing immortal drops. Losing the loaded warp prism can be game-ending.

Immortal drops are designed to punish non stalker-heavy builds. They are good against any kind of robo-based openings or DT openings. Immortal drops are also particularly strong against players going for early colossi. The low unit count and the extreme expenditure of gas on colossus tech makes it quite difficult to defend; for this reason, immortal drops are actually the standard opening in colossus wars.

Do not attempt immortal drops against a blink stalker player or a stargate player as both players already have enough anti-air defense to shut this down.

Vod Hurricane vs CJ herO on Whirlwind. Set 3 From WCS KR Challenger League S3

Dark Templar Drops


DT drops are often done by players opening dark templar, but a dark shrine can easily be added onto a number of openings. Most often, these later dark shrines are meant to punish openings without sufficient detection, but can still be used just for the added map control dark templar provide.

Most players tend to have a single observer with their army -- or spotting in front of the natural -- and an observer spotting somewhere on the map, making a DT drop in the main coupled with a DT runby at the natural a potential disaster for an unwary player. DT drops are also particularly powerful against stargate openings that rely on oracles for detection since you can outmaneuver a single oracle. By using continued DT harassment, you force your opponent on the defensive, buying you time and safety to power your economy back at home. DTs can take watchtowers from your opponent and freely scout the edges of the map for pylons. Using a DT to deny your opponent's third can also be quite useful, especially if they attempt to take a third behind aggression.

The drawback to heavy DT play is that they are very gas intensive, meaning the rest of your tech and unit count is generally diminished. This means that your DT harass must do at least one or more of the following:
Kill several probes
Do a ton of damage in terms of delaying tech
Delay your opponent from moving out until you have similar tech
Or deny your opponent's third long enough to catch up economically

Like immortal drops, DT drops are very micro-intensive and require good control and multitasking. This means that losing the warp prism and DTs can put you very far behind. If you lose the warp prism, you lose a lot of your map control and ability to keep your opponent pinned.

Vod Welmu vs StarDust on Derelict Watcher. Set 1 From WCS EU Ro16

Stargate Harassment


While it is rarer for stargate players to transition into IAC compared to twilight and robo openers, it still happens with enough regularity to be worth noting. Most stargate play in HotS revolves around getting an oracle to harass then usually transitions into a one base timing, phoenix harass, and/or macro robo play. Stargate play can actually resemble passive robo-based expands in that they trade off the fast nexus for early game scouting and harassment. Stargate openings are particularly susceptible to blink timings, which is why the immortal transition works so well. Since robo tech is a very intuitive and safe switch after a stargate opener, transitioning into IAC on two bases is surprisingly easy.

Like warp prism harassment, stargate harassment hinges on keeping your opponent defensive while scouting his build and reacting accordingly. Whether you open with a couple of oracles or some phoenixes, stargate harassment usually has to do some kind of damage and/or force out stalkers from your opponent in order to make up for your slower economy.

Taking the Third and Transitioning


In a macro game, most of the game centers around a single question: how do I take a third base? The third base in Starcraft 2 provides optimum income and allows the lategame to take form, making it structurally the most important part of playing a macro game. Just as the opening influences the way you take a third base, the third base dictates the way you open and how you will play the rest of the game out. This section will explain the general timings for the third base and how to defend it when going IAC.

Expanding Behind Light Pressure


The most common way of taking the third with IAC is using six to eight gateways to pressure your opponent and deny their third base while taking your own. The most common number of gateways is six – a safe/moderate amount – but some players go all the way up to eight gateways to increase pressure. The purpose of this pressure is to poke around, delay or deny your opponent's third for as long as possible, and secure your own third expansion in the process.

The drawback to using army pressure to secure an expansion is that you open yourself up to counter-harassment. Often times, this comes in the form of warp prism or DT harassment once you've moved out into the middle of the map. To combat this, it's good to place a cannon in each mineral line and/or leave your mothership core at home to defend any kind of counter attack. This is also a good time to sweep the edges of the map with a few zealots or DTs for hidden pylons.

Harassment-Based Expansions


Similar to army pressure, harassment-based options can deny the third base of your opponent long enough to allow you to secure your own. The most common types of harassment-based pressure include immortal drops, DTs, warp prism harassment, and blink stalkers. While it may not delay your opponent's third base as long as pressuring with your army, this is a safer option against counterattacks. With most of your army staying at home, you can easily handle warp prism or DT shenanigans.

Early Expansions


In certain situations, you can take earlier third bases before adding extra gateways. If your opponent is going for a very passive build -- or is unable to put on any pressure -- you can take your third nexus off of only three or four gateways. All you are doing here is swapping the normal order of the third nexus and of gateways four through six. This can come up if you know your opponent cannot commit to a strong two-base push -- mass void ray style for example -- so you can almost always take an early third. This also applies if you took a very large economic lead in the early game. In cases like that, your opponent is unable to put on pressure and must either play defensively and hope you try to end the game too soon, or play greedy with a fairly fast third of his own; either way, your faster third will be uncontested.

You can also do this if you can deny your opponent's scouting; by the time your opponent can scout again, it will be too late to react to your early third. Taking the third early pressures your opponent into either committing to an attack or taking their own third as soon as possible. If you can deny scouting, they cannot reactively commit to an attack before your extra gates and defenses are up.

No Expansion, YOLO All-in


Occasionally, you may opt for a two-base all-in instead of playing out the macro game…just remember which race you play! With IAC, you can go up to eight gateways with optimal saturation on two bases (sixteen to nineteen probes on minerals, three probes on each gas) and push across the map as soon as possible, warping in primarily zealots and archons. This is usually done in situations where you gain an early economic lead:

  • If you get a much earlier natural nexus (i.e. 1-gate FE vs. a stargate expand) that goes unpunished
  • If you defend pressure successfully while retaining your natural nexus (i.e. defending blink pressure, DTs, stargate, or 3-gate pressure)
  • If you deal substantial economic damage to your opponent in the early/mid game (i.e. using an immortal push to snipe your opponent's nexus or dealing massive damage with DTs)


This can also be done to punish greedy play as well. For example, a common scenario is going for a two-base all-in against a colossus player who tries to take a greedy third. If you scout it early enough, you can make additional gateways and hit a strong two-base timing that can demolish your opponent.

How to win in Power Overwhelming style


Mid Game


IAC is not necessarily the strongest army in Protoss vs. Protoss, but it's quite possibly the best mid game composition at the moment. Its emphasis on gateway units and tech-light production make it a lightweight and versatile army. IAC works well in small and medium numbers, meaning it can overpower small tech-based armies. Additionally, IAC is very mobile and has the ability to attack or defend several locations at once, making it very easy to secure map control and keep your opponent pinned back or buy time for a better economy or tech setup. The combination of these two things make IAC the ideal mid game composition in many situations and maps.

One of the biggest drawbacks to IAC is that -- like any mid game composition -- it gets weaker as the game progresses. At higher supplies the sizes of archons and immortals prevent one another from attacking, making late game transitions to tempests or colossi essential.

IAC is a very active composition and requires a lot of movement and map vision in order to build an ideal late game scenario. Compared to the more passive colossus mid game, IAC requires more multi-tasking and is arguably more difficult to execute at the highest levels. Heavier multi-tasking also produces a tendency for more things to go wrong because your attention is pulled in more directions. That isn't to say that you have to be a certain level in order to use IAC but rather that more skilled players can get more out of the composition.

Specific Mid Game Scenarios


Playing a Mirror (IAC vs. IAC)


As in any kind of composition mirror, the positioning of your units is paramount. While not quite the chess game of marine/tank vs. marine/tank, IAC vs. IAC is still very dependent on unit positioning and map control. Most of the IAC mirror comes down to posturing with your main army while using a warp prism to pull your opponent out of position. While doing this dance, you're constantly trying to stay even or ahead in bases.

In the picture above, the blue player is using a warp prism to force his opponent back to his main while taking control of the map center with his main army and threatening the 4th and natural.

Often times, you'll see players posture their main army outside the third or fourth base of their opponent while doing a massive zealot warp-in in the main base using the warp prism. When you do this, you're forcing your opponent to defend either his main base or his outlying bases. Good players will be able to use dark templar and zealot warp-ins of their own to deal with the drop while defensively positioning their main army to stop any big attacks. A common mistake occurs when players pull their army out position and lose their nexus or won't have the proper defenses for a mass zealot warp-in.

A common transition out of IAC is colossus. In small numbers and on open ground, colossus get shredded by IAC; however, when you opt to transition into colossus after amassing a strong ground army, the splash damage helps you punch through your opponent's first line of units much faster. On maps with tighter chokes, like Bel'Shir Vestige or Yeonsu, more players opt for a colossus transition; conversely, on open maps like Whirlwind, they'll tend to stick with IAC until the end game.

Players sometimes -- but rarely -- try to transition into tempests. Transitioning directly into tempests can be used as a preemptive countermeasure if your opponent opts for a colossus transition. In a stalemate or split-map situation, they can also help you slowly gain ground and chip away at your opponent's defenses. There is, however, a fine line when transitioning to tempests: if you transition too quickly without having the proper defenses up, you can be overrun by a larger IAC army.

Vod Grubby vs Genius on Akilon Wastes. Set 1 From WCS EU Ro32
Vod MC vs Welmu on Newkirk Precinct.r Set 1 From WCS Season 2 Finals Ro32
Vod MC vs Welmu on Bel'Shir Vestige. Set 3 From WCS Season 2 Finals Ro32
Vod Trust vs Squirtle on Bel'Shir Vestige. Set 1 From IEM NY, KR qualifier
Vod Trust vs Squirtle on Akilon Wastes. Set 2 From IEM NY, KR qualifier
Vod San vs Squirtle on Derelict Watcher. Set 3 From IEM NY, KR qualifier
Vod Grubby vs HerO on Neo Planet S. Set 1 From Dreamhack Bucharest Group Stage 2
Vod PartinG vs Swagger on Bel'Shir Vestige. Set 1 WCS KR Ro32.
Vod HerO vs sOs on Akilon Wastes. Set 1 WCS Global Finals Ro16
Vod HerO vs sOs on Yeonsu. Set 2 WCS Global Finals Ro16

Exploiting the Colossus (IAC vs. Colossus)


As an alternative to IAC, many players opt for colossus mid games. The colossus player is vulnerable while he is establishing his infrastructure and building his colossus numbers; therefore, he gives up map control while focusing on defending. Your main edge against colossus builds is being able to take a faster third and gaining map control while transitioning to higher tech. Move out and pressure their third when taken: also try to sneak in a drop or some other form of harassment. Do note, however, that because colossus play takes so long to kick in and pay off, this timing window is very strong for you, and many times IAC wins the game at this stage. A powerful move is to do a timing attack with about ten probes on your third base and roughly twelve warpgates.
After you take your third -- and while you pressure -- you can transition into either double robo colossus or tempest. Option one allows you to match -- or surpass -- your opponent's colossus count: the second can make his tech a waste once you get five tempests. It's important to remember that teching into tempests will make you extremely vulnerable to a three base attack with +3 and four colossi. This is the most important reason you need to pressure your opponent at this stage: you are looking to delay his econ and therefore his timing attack. Sitting back and turtling on a midgame composition while teching to stargate will likely result in a loss against strong players.

How to dismantle a colossus army using a warp prism and good positioning


It is important to note that the colossus player has the ability to hit a strong timing on three bases with four colossi. This timing hits a sweet spot where the colossi numbers can overpower an IAC army without a critical mass of tempests. To deal with this timing, you can either try to pin the colossus player back with harassment and warp prism pressure to buy enough time for tempests or you can consolidate your resources and focus on making your army as strong as possible and getting a favorable engagement angle. Engagements for IAC are best taken on open ground with a good concave and/or flank. This may, however, be harder on certain maps than others: Bel'Shir Vestige has a narrow third base with a difficult flank, whereas Derelict Watcher has a very open third base and plenty of open space for IAC to get a good surround.

If your colossus opponent instead tries to take a greedy early third and play passively, you can pressure hard yourself with seven or eight gateways. This can outright kill a colossus player, or at least reset the colossus count and deny the third base. In rarer situations, players with a robo bay may be going for an all-in with seven gateways and one colossus without range. This can be defended with good scouting and mass gateway units.

Early immortal drops can slow down colossus production immensely and keep your opponent pinned back and unable to take an early third, allowing you to take a strong economic lead, while also being very useful in defending common robo-based all-ins. Colossus armies also lack mobility, making zealot runbys and warp prism counterattacks very powerful in the mid game.

Vod Trap vs Genius on Polar Night Set 3 WCS Season 3 Finals Ro16
Vod HwangSin vs MacSed on Whirlwind. Set 1 From WCS AM Ro32

Dismantling Stargate Play (IAC vs. Void Ray)


Mass stargate play is very rare compared to IAC and colossus mid games. However, it's common enough to warrant talking about and requires a very specific response in order to deal with it. Much like colossus play, stargate play is very weak while building up the void ray count. During this time, stargate players generally rely on good oracle/phoenix scouting and harassment to keep their opponent pinned back and unable to attack. For this reason, going blink before IAC is ideal. By using blink stalkers -- and very occasionally templar -- to kill off an oracle or some phoenixes and shut down your opponent's harassment, you can set yourself up for a powerful two-base pressure while taking a third and teching up to storm behind it.

Once the harassment is shut down, go up to six to eight gateways and pressure with about ten blink stalkers, two archons, and as many zealots as you can afford while taking a third. This pressure not only disrupts void ray production and potentially lowers the void ray count, but also keeps them off their third base. Take your fifth and sixth geysers behind aggression and wait for storm and four to six full-energy templar. When engaging a void ray army, prioritize storm on the void rays and let your superior ground army clean up your opponent's ground army. If you're completely unable to storm the void rays, it's possible -- but not ideal -- to storm your opponent's ground army.

Void ray players, much like colossus players, can hit powerful timings with a handful of void rays. The best response, again, is to scout the gateway count and start warping in gateway units as soon as possible. It's important to bait out the void ray charge as soon as possible using blink stalkers or engaging on the map and falling back to your nexus. When you engage by your nexus, activate photon overcharge while buying time until the the void ray charge runs out. It is crucial that you do not to engage the void rays until the charge runs out or is almost off.

Late Game Scenarios


As PvP is becoming more stable, more games have started to enter the late game. However, the late game is still isn't fully mapped out and there are no “reliable” transitions known as of yet; as a result, most players tend to stick to IAC augmented by tempests or colossi. This can make late game PvP can be disorienting and hard to understand, but the key components remain the same no matter the circumstances:

  • Mining expansions
  • Army composition
  • Tech production ability
  • Gateway count


The goal going into the late game is to have an advantage in one or more of these areas. IAC provides many opportunities to out-multitask and out-maneuver your opponent, making it a great composition to go from a stable mid game to a powerful late game with an edge. As always, happy zealoting!


Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: SC2John
Feedback and Peer Review: foRGe02, myRZeth, Teoita, ZeromuS
Graphics: Naganis
Replay and VOD Support: Jer99
Liquipedia Support: NovemberstOrm
Editors: Hayl_storm, ZeromuS
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StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Fuell
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands3111 Posts
December 01 2013 22:41 GMT
#2
Wow cool! Thanks
fOu/Zenith/NEX/WeRRa/SlayerS
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
December 01 2013 22:52 GMT
#3
Nice guide
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
December 01 2013 23:00 GMT
#4
YEY RELEASED!
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-01 23:02:48
December 01 2013 23:02 GMT
#5
Great work! Can't wait to try this composition out in my PvPs >: )
I <3 StarCraft.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 01 2013 23:15 GMT
#6
Yeah! Great job Chris, wonderful article
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
banjoetheredskin
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States744 Posts
December 01 2013 23:31 GMT
#7
You guys are the best <3
Writer#1 CJ fan | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/508947-wcs-dreamhack-austin-interviews
Hayl_Storm
Profile Joined April 2011
The Shire633 Posts
December 01 2013 23:43 GMT
#8
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted
Editor@TL_Hayl // Return of the (Marine)King
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
December 01 2013 23:48 GMT
#9
It's time again :D
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
December 01 2013 23:59 GMT
#10
This is the first TLStrat article that I didn't actively provide support for. Way to go guys, looks great!
Administrator
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
December 02 2013 00:07 GMT
#11
On December 02 2013 08:59 wo1fwood wrote:
This is the first TLStrat article that I didn't actively provide support for. Way to go guys, looks great!


Well well well who's slacking!? Jk good article though for pvp'ers
When I think of something else, something will go here
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
December 02 2013 00:17 GMT
#12
TL strategy guys so good
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Nuclease
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1049 Posts
December 02 2013 00:25 GMT
#13
Oh dear gawd so helpful. Lovin' it, thanks TLStrat bros.
Zealots, not zee-lots. | Never forget, KTViolet, Go)Space. | You will never be as good as By.Flash, and your drops will never be as sick as MMA.
Bamm
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden279 Posts
December 02 2013 00:44 GMT
#14
Amazing stuff! been having rough time in PvP so this is greatly appreciated !
Bamm and the dirt is gone!
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
December 02 2013 00:51 GMT
#15
I expect this to be used against Teoita in your showmatch
¯\_(シ)_/¯
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28087 Posts
December 02 2013 00:52 GMT
#16
On December 02 2013 09:07 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 08:59 wo1fwood wrote:
This is the first TLStrat article that I didn't actively provide support for. Way to go guys, looks great!


Well well well who's slacking!? Jk good article though for pvp'ers

It's the best article yet, I wonder if there is a correlation there...

Just kidding wo1fwood
Administrator
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 02 2013 00:56 GMT
#17
On December 02 2013 08:59 wo1fwood wrote:
This is the first TLStrat article that I didn't actively provide support for. Way to go guys, looks great!


Lies you helped me figure out HTML in skype for almost 2 hours on and off when I had questions
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
December 02 2013 01:31 GMT
#18
On December 02 2013 09:51 Whatson wrote:
I expect this to be used against Teoita in your showmatch


I will seriously be surprised if we make it to the mid game.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Metak
Profile Joined August 2011
296 Posts
December 02 2013 01:50 GMT
#19
Nice writeup! Thanks.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 02 2013 02:18 GMT
#20
On December 02 2013 10:31 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 09:51 Whatson wrote:
I expect this to be used against Teoita in your showmatch


I will seriously be surprised if we make it to the mid game.


The most bullshit BO5 in recent memory incoming:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=437115#1

haha
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12386 Posts
December 02 2013 03:34 GMT
#21
On December 02 2013 11:18 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 10:31 SC2John wrote:
On December 02 2013 09:51 Whatson wrote:
I expect this to be used against Teoita in your showmatch


I will seriously be surprised if we make it to the mid game.


The most bullshit BO5 in recent memory incoming:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=437115#1

haha

spotlight this NOW!
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 03:42:33
December 02 2013 03:42 GMT
#22
Did you intentionally release this now to get more votes in L'sTLCMAT
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 02 2013 03:43 GMT
#23
On December 02 2013 12:42 lichter wrote:
Did you intentionally release this now to get more votes in L'sTLCMAT


No, this article has been done for a few days. However, due to DH, RBB, WCG, etc we had to wait for a while.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
December 02 2013 05:12 GMT
#24
On December 02 2013 12:42 lichter wrote:
Did you intentionally release this now to get more votes in L'sTLCMAT


Why do you think I would release it AFTER losing horribly to opterown? :/
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
December 02 2013 08:24 GMT
#25
Hey, this actually answered a couple questions I had. Thanks a lot Chris and the rest of you guys :D
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
December 02 2013 09:32 GMT
#26
sad marine. but a guide for that build was seriously overdue, fell in love with it ever since I saw Hasuobs use it in the ATC, thanks!
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
December 02 2013 10:00 GMT
#27
I always prefer colossi before going archons and usually charge too unless they have stargate. The argument is made here that time warp makes it easier to fight colossi with immortals but I see it the other way around, I think time warp actually enforces colossi as it is harder to close in on them with slow movement on both sides.
I'm not exactly sure but I seem to have the idea that colossi are getting back in favor over straight IAC in pro games. The player with some colossi tends to beat the player without quite well and tempests are quite hard to get out if you don't have a stargate yet. On most maps I prefer going expo, a few immortals plus forge for +1, robo bay and then a third or if they took a greedy third push. Going third faster and defending on immortals plus gateway units is also possible I think but still I would go colossi before archons then, archons don't add that much I feel early on. Archons are a nice gas outlet and are quite useful when armies get bigger because too much zealots clump up and archons scale well with attack upgrades. Earlier on though I feel they are not worth rushing and for example if i want to push or secure or an early third i rather do it without them then with.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 10:24:34
December 02 2013 10:22 GMT
#28
On December 02 2013 19:00 Markwerf wrote:
I always prefer colossi before going archons and usually charge too unless they have stargate. The argument is made here that time warp makes it easier to fight colossi with immortals but I see it the other way around, I think time warp actually enforces colossi as it is harder to close in on them with slow movement on both sides.
I'm not exactly sure but I seem to have the idea that colossi are getting back in favor over straight IAC in pro games. The player with some colossi tends to beat the player without quite well and tempests are quite hard to get out if you don't have a stargate yet. On most maps I prefer going expo, a few immortals plus forge for +1, robo bay and then a third or if they took a greedy third push. Going third faster and defending on immortals plus gateway units is also possible I think but still I would go colossi before archons then, archons don't add that much I feel early on. Archons are a nice gas outlet and are quite useful when armies get bigger because too much zealots clump up and archons scale well with attack upgrades. Earlier on though I feel they are not worth rushing and for example if i want to push or secure or an early third i rather do it without them then with.


The prevalence of IAC in the current meta is based largely on the map pool, in my opinion. While time warp is good in conjunction with colossus, it cannot stop a near-360-degree surround; that being said, colossus do very well on maps where you can funnel stuff through chokes like Bel'Shir and Yeonsu. On maps with open spaces and limited terrain like Polar Night or Derelict Watcher, it's very easy to get a good flank with IAC and get underneath the colossus. Recent maps have been really open and flat with relatively few chokes, making IAC the more common choice. You're right, though. Colossus builds are making a comeback, and that may be due to a slightly different map pool as well as pro players having a better understanding of how greedy they can be with colossus builds.

The purpose of archons in the IAC composition is primarily 1) to break down forcefields in the early stages of the mid game and 2) provide a little bit of splash damage so that your zealots can overpower your opponent's zealots. Archons usually aren't rushed -- they usually pop up ~11:00-12:00 -- and often times they naturally coincide with an excess of gas on 2 bases (which you get if you don't go colossus). You make a point by saying that you prefer to get colossus before archons: colossus builds essentially converge on the same point as IAC builds (IAC + colossus) but in a different order. In that way they're similar except that IAC allows you a lot more mobility and the ability to control the map a little better. :D

StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
December 02 2013 10:35 GMT
#29
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 11:21:25
December 02 2013 11:20 GMT
#30
I really like this style, but I've noticed that the very tip-top guys don't seem to use it that often. PartinG seems to favor very sharp all-ins. sOs seems to favor a blink opening that might or might not transition into this. And Dear seems to open with something like a stargate and then transition into mass Colossi.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 11:26:52
December 02 2013 11:26 GMT
#31
On December 02 2013 12:42 lichter wrote:
Did you intentionally release this now to get more votes in L'sTLCMAT


Yes cuz i have the ace match and sc2john was going to lose to opterown anyway xD
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
December 02 2013 12:21 GMT
#32
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.


In my opinion, Immortal/Archon/Chargelot doesn't make sense at all, it isn't sorted either:
- lexicographically
- by their position on the battlefield
- by the time they appear on the battlefield
- by cost

but maybe that was the reason why it was chosen.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
December 02 2013 12:29 GMT
#33
CIA is a much cooler and more memorable acronym.
tuoli9
Profile Joined October 2011
Finland211 Posts
December 02 2013 12:31 GMT
#34
Oh Jiminy Cricket it sure is a jolly good time being a protoss thanks to you fellas at TL Strategems!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
December 02 2013 12:35 GMT
#35
Since when do protoss players make sense anyway

Wok race ftw
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SaleritoCHILE
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Chile28 Posts
December 02 2013 12:40 GMT
#36
nice power
Bahia Inglesa
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 02 2013 15:29 GMT
#37
On December 02 2013 21:21 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.


In my opinion, Immortal/Archon/Chargelot doesn't make sense at all, it isn't sorted either:
- lexicographically
- by their position on the battlefield
- by the time they appear on the battlefield
- by cost

but maybe that was the reason why it was chosen.


actually they are listed in order of importance. You want to make immortal moreso than archon early, then archon's and avoid making zealots unless you anticipate a fight soon.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Millicant
Profile Joined July 2010
United States78 Posts
December 02 2013 16:45 GMT
#38
Fantastic work as always SC2John. Thank you for all your hard work in preparing this guide.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
December 02 2013 16:49 GMT
#39
great work
TL+ Member
Naganis
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Italy125 Posts
December 02 2013 17:00 GMT
#40
TL Strategy best Strategy

Great work SC2John, read it in the WIP. Masterpiece for Protoss players

Now, we want the showmatch
| Grubby Official Graphic Designer | TL Strategy Graphic Designer | ESL Graphic Designer |
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
December 02 2013 17:14 GMT
#41
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.
I find this version funny because in music and IAC is an imperfect authentic cadence.
Administrator
GleaM
Profile Joined June 2011
United States207 Posts
December 02 2013 17:39 GMT
#42
I like the guide... however you don't even have a paragraph on anything past midgame... aka ideal compositions, unit count, lategame timings, ect
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
December 02 2013 18:06 GMT
#43
On December 03 2013 02:39 GleaM wrote:
I like the guide... however you don't even have a paragraph on anything past midgame... aka ideal compositions, unit count, lategame timings, ect


IAC is primarily a mid game composition, meaning that there are plenty of ways to transition into it and there are multiple ways to transition out (most of which are fairly unexplored). Simply put: there is no need for a late game section because most players simply stick with IAC aided by ~5 tempests or ~5-6 colossus and anything else is fairly uncharted.

As far as ideal IAC compositions: you want to be making only immortals and archons for as long as possible, only building zealots when you know you're about to engage. You also want to be rushing to +3 attack and then going back and getting armor (unless you're transitioning into skytoss, as shields would benefit your army more).

Hope this clears up some stuff.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 20:28:41
December 02 2013 20:27 GMT
#44
On December 03 2013 00:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 21:21 JustPassingBy wrote:
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.


In my opinion, Immortal/Archon/Chargelot doesn't make sense at all, it isn't sorted either:
- lexicographically
- by their position on the battlefield
- by the time they appear on the battlefield
- by cost

but maybe that was the reason why it was chosen.


actually they are listed in order of importance. You want to make immortal moreso than archon early, then archon's and avoid making zealots unless you anticipate a fight soon.


Let's be honest here, this is just a happy coincidence.

Also none knows exactly wtf the best maxed pvp army is anyway, it's not like wol where we had it figured out perfectly.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 20:28:30
December 02 2013 20:28 GMT
#45
edit: double post
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 02 2013 23:39 GMT
#46
On December 03 2013 05:27 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2013 00:29 ZeromuS wrote:
On December 02 2013 21:21 JustPassingBy wrote:
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.


In my opinion, Immortal/Archon/Chargelot doesn't make sense at all, it isn't sorted either:
- lexicographically
- by their position on the battlefield
- by the time they appear on the battlefield
- by cost

but maybe that was the reason why it was chosen.


actually they are listed in order of importance. You want to make immortal moreso than archon early, then archon's and avoid making zealots unless you anticipate a fight soon.


Let's be honest here, this is just a happy coincidence.

Also none knows exactly wtf the best maxed pvp army is anyway, it's not like wol where we had it figured out perfectly.


I was trying to make us sound smart

Though I really hope we can see the lategame worked out some more so we can do a part 2 for this guide.

Don't forget to ask questions if you have them as SC2John is more than willing to help out.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
December 03 2013 00:18 GMT
#47
On December 02 2013 20:26 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 12:42 lichter wrote:
Did you intentionally release this now to get more votes in L'sTLCMAT


Yes cuz i have the ace match and sc2john was going to lose to opterown anyway xD

if things don't change, you two will face off in the final match for epic grudge
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Hassybaby
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom10823 Posts
December 03 2013 01:36 GMT
#48
i like it :D
"These guys are mindfucking me into a sex coma" | "Mayonnaise is a must-have lubricant when performing necrophilia"
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
December 03 2013 02:20 GMT
#49
Great writeup Thanks everyone!
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
December 03 2013 02:36 GMT
#50
On December 03 2013 02:14 wo1fwood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2013 19:35 Schelim wrote:
On December 02 2013 08:43 Hayl_Storm wrote:
I wanted to name this unit comp "The CIA" but got outvoted

wow, i love this. totally should've went for it haha.
I find this version funny because in music and IAC is an imperfect authentic cadence.

I was thinking the same thing and then i realized that when people transition out of pheonix into chargelot archon they end up with a Perfect authentic cadence
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
Littlesheep
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada217 Posts
December 03 2013 07:57 GMT
#51
This loses to my Proxy2Gate

User was warned for this post
pro toez
Mozdk
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark6989 Posts
December 03 2013 10:26 GMT
#52
Great guide SC2John

I am definately gonna look at this from time to time. This is the mix I go for in all PvP games atm.

I go for storm the second I scout a single VR. It seems to me it's the best way to deal with a head on engagement. It also seems to me that vs VR compositions, hidden bases work well. Maybe because they always feel low on cash, they do not sack probes/zealots to scout. Needs more testing tho
"It's really hard to Protoss" - White-Ra |||| "Apedts are dfucking amazing" - Lorning
tbeen
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany98 Posts
December 03 2013 16:41 GMT
#53
This is a guide guide for the normal way of a PvP and how to behave in mid to lategame, what to expect in transitions etc. . But it doesn't really features all the early game coinflips and possiblities of Oracles or BO wins. That's what PvP comes down in most games.

If it stabilizes after the first few minutes and both players are kinda equally matched this guide is really good.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
December 03 2013 16:45 GMT
#54
Hence the part where we say, we analyze the MID game.

Having a guide that covers a full matchup is close to impossible. It took us one year of work the last time we did it, so at this point it's better to focus on more reasonable projects
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
December 03 2013 18:38 GMT
#55
On December 04 2013 01:45 Teoita wrote:
Hence the part where we say, we analyze the MID game.

Having a guide that covers a full matchup is close to impossible. It took us one year of work the last time we did it, so at this point it's better to focus on more reasonable projects

your sig kinda sums up the PvP early game anyways
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
December 03 2013 19:57 GMT
#56
hmm
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
Akamu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States309 Posts
December 09 2013 00:53 GMT
#57
so im suprised at how popular this now is on the NA ladder at a diamond/masters level. Assuming the game doesn't end to early shananigans this seems to be the mid-game of choice.
I hear your heart beat to the beat of the drums, what a shame that you came here with someone.
ffadicted
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3545 Posts
December 09 2013 02:13 GMT
#58
On December 09 2013 09:53 Akamu wrote:
so im suprised at how popular this now is on the NA ladder at a diamond/masters level. Assuming the game doesn't end to early shananigans this seems to be the mid-game of choice.

It has been for a long time tbh, it's a good midgame style
SooYoung-Noona!
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
December 09 2013 02:19 GMT
#59
On December 09 2013 11:13 ffadicted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2013 09:53 Akamu wrote:
so im suprised at how popular this now is on the NA ladder at a diamond/masters level. Assuming the game doesn't end to early shananigans this seems to be the mid-game of choice.

It has been for a long time tbh, it's a good midgame style


It's kind of comparable to how mutas ruled ZvZ at the beginning of HotS. Although mass muta was not the strongest composition (hydra/roach/infestor was), you could get some much map control and a free 3rd and 4th base that your opponent couldn't keep up with you economically. In a way, IAC does the same thing: it sets you up with a lot of map control, allows you to take a third freely, and gives you the chance to control the pace of the game.

Of course, not to the ridiculous degree that mutas did :p.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
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