I don't understand. I did everything you are supposed to (I think). CC on high ground. Barracks close to edge. Enginering bay behind rax. He just kept sniping the scv building the cc and eventually destroyed it..........
Do I have to just accept it was bad luck in him choosing a coin flip build (if I went rax first with wall off the hold would be trivial) and my scvs being dumb when building my buildings? Am I supposed to keep halting production while the scv is on my side of the buildings or something?
CC on high ground is supposedly safe against this but if I still lose to 6 pool I might as well just build CC on low ground and flip the coin with opponent.
Actually one thing I wished I had done was cancel gas but the gas finished before I saw the attack. But even so, that extra 75 mineral return would not have saved my CC or given me enough money to wall off behind my cc which was the issue.
I swear there must be some micro trick I am missing but I just don't know it.
On July 23 2013 16:05 Emzeeshady wrote: It is perfectly safe if you do everything without major error. If you could provide a replay then that would be great.
On July 23 2013 16:05 Emzeeshady wrote: It is perfectly safe if you do everything without major error. If you could provide a replay then that would be great.
Come on shady don't you know how to use GGtracker?
I dont get why you wall with the barracks. It has way too much surface area and gets destroyed because it will never be done when the lings are there. Just wall with depot, cc, depot and delay the barracks a bit every time. It makes it so much safer, because the depot is done earlier and you can start to repair. (2 workers per depot on autorepair)
10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
you need to micro your scv. everytime it is about to float to the outside you cancel and restart the building process. this way you can force the scv to stay on top of the building or inside.
On July 23 2013 16:58 phos4 wrote: you need to micro your scv. everytime it is about to float to the outside you cancel and restart the building process. this way you can force the scv to stay on top of the building or inside.
Yeah I thought it might be something like that. I guess when you are in a "holy crap I am getting 6 pooled" mindset you forget stuff like that like pulling off of gas.
6 pool will always be able to cancel one of the building buildings at least every time I've seen it/done it this has happened. It can't be avoided since ling dps is faster than building hp gain, add in possibility of scv being sniped and things get more and more unlikely.It normally isn't game ending though, depends on your build and your micro... I remember Lucifron vs TLO he lost a ton of scvs to it but still stayed in the game for another ~10 or so minutes before finally being killed by TLO (WCS EU last season I believe, the KR seeds)
1. Make sure to micro your scv when it floats on the bad side of the CC, you want your cc to finish. If that scv dies make sure to put another one on it to rebuild right away.
2. You had the right idea with the ebay block, but if you had just built it a little bit further back (making a wall with the cc instead of trying to block off the barracks entrance with ebay/depot. You want to start that ebay as soon as possible (cancel gas if necessary) so that it has time to get up and then you can just repair spam. Your rax WILL die, so you need to rebuild one eventually not as part of the wall to chase away the lings.
Some maps you won't be able to do that, and you need to pay attention of your 1st depot positioning to find that out. If you look at newkirk, if you had placed your depot on the otherside you wouldn't be able to block with just a single ebay when your rax dies. On akilon you can do this if you place the depot on the side closer to your third. Same principle.. a lot of maps you can't do it though in which case you have to rely on micro and decision making to win after a 6 pool since you won't be able to hold your wall.
Here is a replay of what im talking about http://drop.sc/350505 regarding the ebay block.
On July 23 2013 16:35 KingofGods wrote: 10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
No, it has not more surface area on the cc.
Do we all agree that the real problem is the fact that lings do more dps than a building structure gets? So what is wrong with walling with a second depot? You can start it earlier, it done earlier, you can repair it earlier. It will delay your marines and oribtals a bit of course, but if you play CC first you dont want to attack anyways.
1. Make sure to micro your scv when it floats on the bad side of the CC, you want your cc to finish. If that scv dies make sure to put another one on it to rebuild right away.
2. You had the right idea with the ebay block, but if you had just built it a little bit further back (making a wall with the cc instead of trying to block off the barracks entrance with ebay/depot. You want to start that ebay as soon as possible (cancel gas if necessary) so that it has time to get up and then you can just repair spam. Your rax WILL die, so you need to rebuild one eventually not as part of the wall to chase away the lings.
Some maps you won't be able to do that, and you need to pay attention of your 1st depot positioning to find that out. If you look at newkirk, if you had placed your depot on the otherside you wouldn't be able to block with just a single ebay when your rax dies. On akilon you can do this if you place the depot on the side closer to your third. Same principle.. a lot of maps you can't do it though in which case you have to rely on micro and decision making to win after a 6 pool since you won't be able to hold your wall.
Here is a replay of what im talking about http://drop.sc/350505 regarding the ebay block.
But isn't even when the SCV will go to the other side somewhat random? How effective is it if I just let the SCV build for a millisecond, halt, and then start again?
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
1. Make sure to micro your scv when it floats on the bad side of the CC, you want your cc to finish. If that scv dies make sure to put another one on it to rebuild right away.
2. You had the right idea with the ebay block, but if you had just built it a little bit further back (making a wall with the cc instead of trying to block off the barracks entrance with ebay/depot. You want to start that ebay as soon as possible (cancel gas if necessary) so that it has time to get up and then you can just repair spam. Your rax WILL die, so you need to rebuild one eventually not as part of the wall to chase away the lings.
Some maps you won't be able to do that, and you need to pay attention of your 1st depot positioning to find that out. If you look at newkirk, if you had placed your depot on the otherside you wouldn't be able to block with just a single ebay when your rax dies. On akilon you can do this if you place the depot on the side closer to your third. Same principle.. a lot of maps you can't do it though in which case you have to rely on micro and decision making to win after a 6 pool since you won't be able to hold your wall.
Here is a replay of what im talking about http://drop.sc/350505 regarding the ebay block.
But isn't even when the SCV will go to the other side somewhat random? How effective is it if I just let the SCV build for a millisecond, halt, and then start again?
It's pretty random yeah, if you don't want to micro it's ok to lose scvs to it. Obviously it's very random and you're leaving it up to luck but unless you lose more than 4-5 scvs you should still be fine. The more important part of what I said is the ebay block location and timing. It's really important that you get the ebay down ASAP and in the right place..
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
On July 23 2013 16:35 KingofGods wrote: 10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
No, it has not more surface area on the cc.
Barracks takes up 3 spaces, supply depot takes 2. Something has to cover the extra space.
I think from now on I am going to give my rax maximum surface area and my CC less surface area knowing that my rax will eventually fall and keep my cc up as much as possible. But if my barracks dies too fast I might not have enough money to wall off behind......
On July 23 2013 16:35 KingofGods wrote: 10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
No, it has not more surface area on the cc.
Barracks takes up 3 spaces, supply depot takes 2. Something has to cover the extra space.
I think from now on I am going to give my rax maximum surface area and my CC less surface area knowing that my rax will eventually fall and keep my cc up as much as possible.
The ramps don't all look like that. Besides, in that picture if you moved your CC 1 hex to the left to make room for the rax, the CC would have less surface area.
WHAT? Of course do all ramps look like this. You dont use the rax to wall, you can build it anywhere else in your main. You can wall like this on every map in the ladder pool (except on korhal floating island, but who has this map not on veto )
I do CC first in every tvz and I wall like this every time.
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
On July 23 2013 17:49 graNite wrote: WHAT? Of course do all ramps look like this. You dont use the rax to wall, you can build it anywhere else in your main. You can wall like this on every map in the ladder pool (except on korhal floating island, but who has this map not on veto )
I do CC first in every tvz and I wall like this every time.
Walling with your depot like that wastes money that you don't need to spend. You can wall with a rax to save money and get the wall up earlier.
Yes, I have always made a conscious effort to give my barracks maximum surface area in order to reduce the surface area on my cc. And yet my cc still fell T_T. I think it comes down to how you micro your scvs. Do you keep halting production when scv is on the inside or do you constantly put another scv to continue the production when the building scvs inevitably act dumb and go to the other side? Do you do this for the CC scv and rax scv?
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
I'm not arguing that haha, i'm just pointing out the fact that with the rax on the other side, you can wall off with an ebay when the rax dies. I'm not sure whether or not the 1 ling makes the difference between the rax falling and not (but i'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference).
On July 23 2013 17:55 KingofGods wrote: Yes, I have always made a conscious effort to give my barracks maximum surface area in order to reduce the surface area on my cc. And yet my cc still fell T_T. I think it comes down to how you micro your scvs. Do you keep halting production which scv is on the inside or do you constantly put another scv to continue the production when the building scvs inevitably act dumb and go to the other side?
Only halt production on the scv if it goes to the outside, once you halt production you immediately put it back on, this is to try to get the scv to resume construction on the inside. You do not want the CC to have halted production for long, because otherwise the CC can fall. If the scv dies while on the outside, immediately replace it.
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
I'm not arguing that haha, i'm just pointing out the fact that with the rax on the other side, you can wall off with an ebay when the rax dies. I'm not sure whether or not the 1 ling makes the difference between the rax falling and not (but i'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference).
Can someone who is master play this out with a trainings partner 5 times each? (maybe on a unit test map)? I have never seen an ebay in a wall in GSL/SPL, so i think it should hold fine (on statistical average).
edit: fuck, spend my 900th on something constructive. jeeeezzzzz
On July 23 2013 17:49 graNite wrote: WHAT? Of course do all ramps look like this. You dont use the rax to wall, you can build it anywhere else in your main. You can wall like this on every map in the ladder pool (except on korhal floating island, but who has this map not on veto )
I do CC first in every tvz and I wall like this every time.
Walling with your depot like that wastes money that you don't need to spend. You can wall with a rax to save money and get the wall up earlier.
Well you need a second depot to keep up with the scv production so I dont think it is a waste of minerals. and how does walling with your rax get your wall up earlier when it costs more and takes longer to build?
Polt vs. Suppy Akilon Wastes at MLG. Polt's rax fell but 1 ebay was enough to wall it off completely. Suppy himself made the comment that this was not the best map to do it on because it only required 1 ebay to wall off where as it's not the case on all maps.
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
I'm not arguing that haha, i'm just pointing out the fact that with the rax on the other side, you can wall off with an ebay when the rax dies. I'm not sure whether or not the 1 ling makes the difference between the rax falling and not (but i'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference).
Can someone who is master play this out with a trainings partner 5 times each? (maybe on a unit test map)? I have never seen an ebay in a wall in GSL/SPL, so i think it should hold fine (on statistical average).
edit: fuck, spend my 900th on something constructive. jeeeezzzzz
That's because 6 pool is VERY coin flippy so it doesn't happen very often. If they do, then it's most likely not on a map where you can ebay block.
To granite: you don't need the 2nd depot to continue scv production, @ 18 supply your 2nd cc finishes so that you can double orbital and make a marine so that you end up with 19/30 supply. And i say it gets your wall up faster because it blocks faster, it might not be "complete" but it is up faster.
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
I'm not arguing that haha, i'm just pointing out the fact that with the rax on the other side, you can wall off with an ebay when the rax dies. I'm not sure whether or not the 1 ling makes the difference between the rax falling and not (but i'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference).
Can someone who is master play this out with a trainings partner 5 times each? (maybe on a unit test map)? I have never seen an ebay in a wall in GSL/SPL, so i think it should hold fine (on statistical average).
edit: fuck, spend my 900th on something constructive. jeeeezzzzz
To granite: you don't need the 2nd depot to continue scv production, @ 18 supply your 2nd cc finishes so that you can double orbital and make a marine so that you end up with 19/30 supply. And i say it gets your wall up faster because it blocks faster, it might not be "complete" but it is up faster.
I know you dont need the depot right at that moment, but you need a second depot in the near future. What about the ebay? That is a real waste. And I still dont get how a barracks blocks it faster when i can start a depot at 100 minerals why you would have to wait for 150.
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
I just dont believe you. With my wall only 4 lings (if marines have the same size :D) can attack the rax, with the OP method 5 can. I simulated this with marines: Wallingwhilemarinesarecuddling
I'm not arguing that haha, i'm just pointing out the fact that with the rax on the other side, you can wall off with an ebay when the rax dies. I'm not sure whether or not the 1 ling makes the difference between the rax falling and not (but i'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference).
Can someone who is master play this out with a trainings partner 5 times each? (maybe on a unit test map)? I have never seen an ebay in a wall in GSL/SPL, so i think it should hold fine (on statistical average).
edit: fuck, spend my 900th on something constructive. jeeeezzzzz
To granite: you don't need the 2nd depot to continue scv production, @ 18 supply your 2nd cc finishes so that you can double orbital and make a marine so that you end up with 19/30 supply. And i say it gets your wall up faster because it blocks faster, it might not be "complete" but it is up faster.
I know you dont need the depot right at that moment, but you need a second depot in the near future. What about the ebay? That is a real waste. And I still dont get how a barracks blocks it faster when i can start a depot at 100 minerals why you would have to wait for 150.
So what you're saying is you go depot cc depot, this is really bad, you delay your rax by 100 which loses you money since you delay your orbitals. When your 2nd cc finishes you go from 19 supply cap to 30 supply cap, that's a LOT of time before you need to start another depot. Obviously if you go depot cc depot it blocks faster but that's just not the right order. The ebay is ONLY if a 6 pool occurs. If you go depot cc depot obviously you can just repair and hold easily but if they don't 6 pool then your build falls behind.
If possible, cancel your gas to get the ebay up faster, if the lings arrive after your gas finishes the zerg already messed up. Don't mine gas, build that ebay behind your barracks and have 3-4 scvs to repair your depot and in case you need to put one of them on the cc (micro the worker building your cc, if you give the "stop building" order and then right click the cc again it'll change the angle).
You're going to lose your barracks so build one in a safe spot after you started your ebay. Your only goal is to stay alive, if you stay alive you'll have two cc's against a low econ zerg and you will win. There's nothing wrong with your build order, whoever suggested getting a 2nd depot instead of a rax is being silly.
After you get your first marine out and you've held everything (dont forget to change your cc's into oc's) start mining gas, get a tech lab on barrack for stim and add a couple rax, then just macro by feel, getting 2nd gas with your factory and then push with your first medivacs or some such.
On July 23 2013 16:35 KingofGods wrote: 10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
No, it has not more surface area on the cc.
Barracks takes up 3 spaces, supply depot takes 2. Something has to cover the extra space.
I think from now on I am going to give my rax maximum surface area and my CC less surface area knowing that my rax will eventually fall and keep my cc up as much as possible.
????
Then both OC's are late, and the point of going CC first is almost moot because you have a 65 second LONGER delay to even STAT your OC. And then, you have nothing to shoo away zerglings. They can sit there and drain your money as you have to repair for those 65+ seconds for the rax to finish, then ~20 for the marine to finish.
On July 23 2013 17:49 graNite wrote: WHAT? Of course do all ramps look like this. You dont use the rax to wall, you can build it anywhere else in your main. You can wall like this on every map in the ladder pool (except on korhal floating island, but who has this map not on veto )
I do CC first in every tvz and I wall like this every time.
Walling with your depot like that wastes money that you don't need to spend. You can wall with a rax to save money and get the wall up earlier.
Well you need a second depot to keep up with the scv production so I dont think it is a waste of minerals. and how does walling with your rax get your wall up earlier when it costs more and takes longer to build?
...You don't need to second depot for some time in CC first. Like, you get gas, factory, reactor, bunker, and THEN 2nd depot...
I know you dont need the depot right at that moment, but you need a second depot in the near future. What about the ebay? That is a real waste. And I still dont get how a barracks blocks it faster when i can start a depot at 100 minerals why you would have to wait for 150.
Barracks has more HP a la it gains HP faster as it builds compared to a depot. It has a bigger footprint than a depot. It takes surface area off your CC by placing it properly, and lets them hit the Rax or depot. The Ebay is ONLY when they are going to break through, and you need to delay them further -- then you drop a ebay behind to further waste their time as you get your double OC and a marine out.
Jeffrey is correct which should be rather obvious if you actually opened like this granite, you don't build a 2nd depot until after your bunker finishes (which works out since you need to wall your natural anyway, just use the same worker)
i lost my lowground CC to a 10p last night and came back to win the game, honestly, these kind of cheesy pool opening have no transition and you need to just focus on the basics (ie, going for hellions, 3CCs)
On July 24 2013 01:32 c0sm0naut wrote: i lost my lowground CC to a 10p last night and came back to win the game, honestly, these kind of cheesy pool opening have no transition and you need to just focus on the basics (ie, going for hellions, 3CCs)
Make sure to always build your CC, if your SCV dies to lings while building have another one standing by. Then keep repairing while getting a marine out, you are miles ahead.
On July 24 2013 01:32 c0sm0naut wrote: i lost my lowground CC to a 10p last night and came back to win the game, honestly, these kind of cheesy pool opening have no transition and you need to just focus on the basics (ie, going for hellions, 3CCs)
Life would like to disagree with you.
Good thing i'll never be good enough to play vs life my point is, at casual level it's better to just take the 3 CC's play standard hellions/mines/bio/medivacs and focus on good trades. you're not impossibly behind if you get bad luck and face a 10p, you're just slightly behind and need to draw out the game and make his advantage smaller. if you just go into one OC and bio + hellions and lose your army its often GG, if you throw down 3 CC you can come back. it only takes one good drop to equalize something like this really
On July 24 2013 01:32 c0sm0naut wrote: i lost my lowground CC to a 10p last night and came back to win the game, honestly, these kind of cheesy pool opening have no transition and you need to just focus on the basics (ie, going for hellions, 3CCs)
Life would like to disagree with you.
Good thing i'll never be good enough to play vs life my point is, at casual level it's better to just take the 3 CC's play standard hellions/mines/bio/medivacs and focus on good trades. you're not impossibly behind if you get bad luck and face a 10p, you're just slightly behind and need to draw out the game and make his advantage smaller. if you just go into one OC and bio + hellions and lose your army its often GG, if you throw down 3 CC you can come back. it only takes one good drop to equalize something like this really
I don't really see how this is relevant to the thread?
On July 23 2013 17:30 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Just a general question: I think i saw this in SPL/GSL and i always wall like this (right side, OP is on the left side): + Show Spoiler +
so i guess i have more surface, but b/c the rax is shifted 1 unit to the side there shouldnt too many lings to be able to hurt my rax (cause the edge of the cc is passable for lings) ?
The way pictured here is better because it gives you the ability to wall with an ebay when your rax dies (which it will vs a 6 pool, regardless of positioning). Your way is fine vs a 10 pool or anything later than a 6/7 pool, since your rax will finish anyways. But vs a really really early pool you need the ability to ebay block to buy you time to get a rax up.
Balla's got it right here. SCVs can keep up this T formation pretty easily for a hold. Walling with depots is a little quicker, but less forgiving and harder to repair.
Forget about moving your building SCV around, using stop commands and building again. DON'T do it.
Think about it, each time you do this you are not building your rax/CC and thus not increasing it's HP. One SCV dying in a game where you get 6pooled doesn't matter at all. Those few extra hitpoints are however very important. Also if the building scv gets exposed to the outside, and zerg attacks this SCV then there is actually less surface area on the buildings - wasted DPS on the buildings.
Once the SCV dies you replace it instantly with a new one from the inside.
On July 24 2013 04:12 hku wrote: Terran's are so lucky to be able to CC first and have a chance at surviving a 6 pool. As a protoss player, I am seething with jealousy.
We are just better at walling, learn to wall your choke with your nexus and you can do it aws well...
On July 24 2013 01:32 c0sm0naut wrote: i lost my lowground CC to a 10p last night and came back to win the game, honestly, these kind of cheesy pool opening have no transition and you need to just focus on the basics (ie, going for hellions, 3CCs)
Life would like to disagree with you.
Good thing i'll never be good enough to play vs life my point is, at casual level it's better to just take the 3 CC's play standard hellions/mines/bio/medivacs and focus on good trades. you're not impossibly behind if you get bad luck and face a 10p, you're just slightly behind and need to draw out the game and make his advantage smaller. if you just go into one OC and bio + hellions and lose your army its often GG, if you throw down 3 CC you can come back. it only takes one good drop to equalize something like this really
I dont think that is wrong, but just saying 10p is cheese that has no transition is wrong. If life can use it as macro opening, that means if you just use your time to learn it you can use it as such as well. You may not be playing against life, but your not "insert good korean terran here".
Most ladder players will probebly just 10p, but there are players that have seen life and copied the transition from him. These players may even be much more comfortable/dangerious to play against in early mid game when opening 10p. Against this kinda player it may just be almoust unwinnable for even pro player even if you just survive.
On July 23 2013 16:35 KingofGods wrote: 10 depot, 14 cc, 15 rax is the most standard cookie cutter build lol. I'm just trying to understand why it's working for pros and not for me. I couldn't even blame bad macro or anything like that.
Had I walled off with depot, cc, depot as you suggest that would leave even more surface area for my CC and let it die off even faster.
On July 24 2013 04:12 hku wrote: Terran's are so lucky to be able to CC first and have a chance at surviving a 6 pool. As a protoss player, I am seething with jealousy.
Yeah buddy I wish my bunkers could attack without marines in them and I wish I could turn my orbitals into cannons! We each have our vices
Make sure to always build your CC, if your SCV dies to lings while building have another one standing by. Then keep repairing while getting a marine out, you are miles ahead.
Ohh and for those that are gonna say that this wouldn't have worked if the ramp formation was different and he couldn't block with the engy. If you want to be ultrasafe just build the CC to the bottom of the raxx so that it has less surface are to be attacked.
But that leaves more area behind the rax that needs to be walled off which I think is impossible given the amount of resources the terran will have at that point.
There's nothing wrong with keeping a spare SCV right next to the potentially endangered one that's build the cc! This will allow you to immediately continue building the CC in case of SCV death.
Remember, you can't repair under-construction buildings, so continuous construction is the only way to ensure the wall holds.
Do normal 10 depot, 14-15 cc and rax after. Make sure to send a scouting scv before the six lings would arrive. Then if 6pool is the case make a hidden rax at your nat to make a few marines. Micro your scvs to not lose many. GG when marines out.
Positioning is everything in this situation its kind of Luck of the draw with your scv going to that side BUT you can fix it by pressing T and clicking on the building again and it resets and goes to the other side making it so the SCV can't be killed
Again it is somewhat luck of the draw but that does help ALOT especially if you time it just right and are quick about it....
Make sure to always build your CC, if your SCV dies to lings while building have another one standing by. Then keep repairing while getting a marine out, you are miles ahead.
I don't get why you would put down an ebay instead of another barracks as backup wall? It's only 25 minerals more has more HP and you can start marines right away... Maybe because it builds faster or smth?
Make sure to always build your CC, if your SCV dies to lings while building have another one standing by. Then keep repairing while getting a marine out, you are miles ahead.
I don't get why you would put down an ebay instead of another barracks as backup wall? It's only 25 minerals more has more HP and you can start marines right away... Maybe because it builds faster or smth?
Exactly. You want something that builds fast so that you can begin repairing it, since when it is being built you can't repair it.
The only reason polt won that game is because suppy did really horrible micro mistakes. 1) he doesn't use the maximum number of lings to bring down the rax. Only 4 attacking instead of 5 2) he can still get 1 ling in to attack the cc at the same time but his fat drones are blocking the way 3) assuming he didn't lose the game at those 2 earlier points he should bring down rax and then focus cc imediately.instead of attacking that engi bay + a little bit of everything I've spent the day 6 pooling a mate who wanted to learn how to defend with cc first and even on bigger map like starstation it's prob a split second to defend it but on akilon it's just not possible as i can tell.
I've been testing today and I think that the key is microing well the workers to the closest mineral patchs. See that Polt does the CC at 2:16 and for me it's even hard to do it before 2:20. Anyway, even with the perfect building times, I'm not sure if it's possible to hold in small maps considering a proper zerg micro, like Incand said.
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/qnw4nM3)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0KFPFDW.jpg)
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