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United States4883 Posts
On July 08 2013 17:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 14:43 SC2John wrote:On July 08 2013 12:33 ETisME wrote:
biomine is just much more reliable and effective atm.
we all just have to wait for Mvp to figure out a hots mech build YAY!!! Mvp!!! Seriously, though, every time I see Mvp mech (like the game against Stephano in WCS EU S1), I get giddy with excitement and scream a little bit.  As a sidenote: I think that 1) until the map pool changes some, mech is really only any good on Akilon and 2) HotS mech kind of revolves around hellbat drops. Otherwise, 4M is WAY easier to play. Basically any map that is good for Mech is good for bio as well. I don't think there is to put any blame on maps. It's Vipers in general the combo Viper+Swarmhost and that bio is just way easier to play to begin with - maybe not mechanically but overall in terms of gameplan, setup, opportunities to win, combackpotential after a major mistake etc, etc.
I agree that bio plays just as well on any map as mech. I'm just saying that the map pool doesn't allow much opportunity for mech even if you WANT to fight that horrible uphill battle. The main reason why Akilon Wastes works well for mech is that 1) you can secure 4 bases really easily, and 2) you can control movement on the opposite lane of the map and it takes too long to run around the long way for a flank (much like the old map crossfire). No other map in the map pool gives you that kind of opportunity. Granted, it's slim conditions to begin with, but unless the map pool changes to include more maps like Akilon, mech is probably going to be fairly [EDIT: incredibly*] rare in TvZ.
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On July 08 2013 17:52 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 17:35 Big J wrote:On July 08 2013 14:43 SC2John wrote:On July 08 2013 12:33 ETisME wrote:
biomine is just much more reliable and effective atm.
we all just have to wait for Mvp to figure out a hots mech build YAY!!! Mvp!!! Seriously, though, every time I see Mvp mech (like the game against Stephano in WCS EU S1), I get giddy with excitement and scream a little bit. As a sidenote: I think that 1) until the map pool changes some, mech is really only any good on Akilon and 2) HotS mech kind of revolves around hellbat drops. Otherwise, 4M is WAY easier to play. Basically any map that is good for Mech is good for bio as well. I don't think there is to put any blame on maps. It's Vipers in general the combo Viper+Swarmhost and that bio is just way easier to play to begin with - maybe not mechanically but overall in terms of gameplan, setup, opportunities to win, combackpotential after a major mistake etc, etc. I agree that bio plays just as well on any map as mech. I'm just saying that the map pool doesn't allow much opportunity for mech even if you WANT to fight that horrible uphill battle. The main reason why Akilon Wastes works well for mech is that 1) you can secure 4 bases really easily, and 2) you can control movement on the opposite lane of the map and it takes too long to run around the long way for a flank (much like the old map crossfire). No other map in the map pool gives you that kind of opportunity. Granted, it's slim conditions to begin with, but unless the map pool changes to include more maps like Akilon, mech is probably going to be fairly [EDIT: incredibly*] rare in TvZ.
Well, I think even then it's going to be incredibly rare. There need to be balance changes (imo especially to blinding cloud) to make mech work. And even then I question how popular it will really get, as unlike bio, you can hardly ever win a game before 15mins with simply due to the techinvesments needed.
Like, in TvT where Mech is pretty good these days we see it vs bio play on maps that would have been completely unreasonable for it (e.g. whirlwind) in WoL.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
Mech is even good against swarmhosts it's just you need to rely more on drops.
The issue isn't is that mech is terrible, it's that bio is far too good. It always has been far too good in this game so why the hell would you play anything else. Unlike mech which has counters, bio can beat pretty much everything in the game cost efficiently and while ultras were the counter to bio in BW, there's not even any reason to switch off it when they come out to take it to a lategame mech style anymore.
It's pretty sad really, but pros want to make their money and while bio is so versatile they're never going to use anything else.
I really hoped when Fantasy switched over he'd not be able to control bio very well and play mech, but apparently even he has no trouble this time around.
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On July 08 2013 18:11 Qikz wrote:
Mech is even good against swarmhosts it's just you need to rely more on drops.
The issue isn't is that mech is terrible, it's that bio is far too good. It always has been far too good in this game so why the hell would you play anything else. Unlike mech which has counters, bio can beat pretty much everything in the game cost efficiently and while ultras were the counter to bio in BW, there's not even any reason to switch off it when they come out to take it to a lategame mech style anymore.
It's pretty sad really, but pros want to make their money and while bio is so versatile they're never going to use anything else.
I really hoped when Fantasy switched over he'd not be able to control bio very well and play mech, but apparently even he has no trouble this time around.
Is Terran far to OP compared to the other races? If not, then bio is balanced, not "way to good". So, bio balanced, bio>>>>mech => mech UP(shit).
I do understand what you mean, but the game has been balanced around bio, so it's in the right place now. The problem is that mech got left behind.
You thought Fantasy would not be able to control bio? Fantasy the Kespa progamer?
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Imo mech is also too slow (game time i mean). If Z scouts properly his eco is gonna explode and he is ready with mass something when you push. Bio is less predictable for Z.
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Korean pros have practiced way more hours with bio. And it works. So why switch?
Mech is very much unexplored compared to bio. It would be a risk to play it. Better to let another progamer show how to succeed with it and copy him, and just keep doing bio while waiting for that day. The game theory there prevents any serious korean pro terran to go mech.
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Well blizzard really fucked this expansion up. If siege tanks got reduced to 2 supply, would it be viable again?
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It is ironic that Blizard tried to to improve Mech with the expansion but instead managed to destroy it.
They introduced Swarm Hosts and Vipers making mech really weak in TvZ.
They introduced 4 pop Tempest to make sure that the already weak WOL TvP mech play got even worse.
I want to play a real time Strategy game, not a real time Action game. Running around with bio trying to kill your opponent before 15 min got really old in WOL, now bio is improved even further and mech is hard-countered even harder than before.
Just improve Tanks for god sake! Tanks make the game strategic and intresting. Nerf Hellbats, nerf medivac boost, nerf marines, I do not care. Just improve the tank!
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On July 08 2013 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 18:11 Qikz wrote:
Mech is even good against swarmhosts it's just you need to rely more on drops.
The issue isn't is that mech is terrible, it's that bio is far too good. It always has been far too good in this game so why the hell would you play anything else. Unlike mech which has counters, bio can beat pretty much everything in the game cost efficiently and while ultras were the counter to bio in BW, there's not even any reason to switch off it when they come out to take it to a lategame mech style anymore.
It's pretty sad really, but pros want to make their money and while bio is so versatile they're never going to use anything else.
I really hoped when Fantasy switched over he'd not be able to control bio very well and play mech, but apparently even he has no trouble this time around. Is Terran far to OP compared to the other races? If not, then bio is balanced, not "way to good". So, bio balanced, bio>>>>mech => mech UP(shit). I do understand what you mean, but the game has been balanced around bio, so it's in the right place now. The problem is that mech got left behind. You thought Fantasy would not be able to control bio? Fantasy the Kespa progamer?
Fantasy's bio control in BW was awful, why do you think he only ever played Mech in TvZ?
Also by too good I mean too versatile. There's nothing that counters it outright like there is mech.
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On July 09 2013 00:48 9-BiT wrote:
Well blizzard really fucked this expansion up. If siege tanks got reduced to 2 supply, would it be viable again?
I think increasing the HP and damage of tanks would be better.
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On July 09 2013 01:37 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 08 2013 18:11 Qikz wrote:
Mech is even good against swarmhosts it's just you need to rely more on drops.
The issue isn't is that mech is terrible, it's that bio is far too good. It always has been far too good in this game so why the hell would you play anything else. Unlike mech which has counters, bio can beat pretty much everything in the game cost efficiently and while ultras were the counter to bio in BW, there's not even any reason to switch off it when they come out to take it to a lategame mech style anymore.
It's pretty sad really, but pros want to make their money and while bio is so versatile they're never going to use anything else.
I really hoped when Fantasy switched over he'd not be able to control bio very well and play mech, but apparently even he has no trouble this time around. Is Terran far to OP compared to the other races? If not, then bio is balanced, not "way to good". So, bio balanced, bio>>>>mech => mech UP(shit). I do understand what you mean, but the game has been balanced around bio, so it's in the right place now. The problem is that mech got left behind. You thought Fantasy would not be able to control bio? Fantasy the Kespa progamer? Fantasy's bio control in BW was awful, why do you think he only ever played Mech in TvZ? Also by too good I mean too versatile. There's nothing that counters it outright like there is mech.
This shows a problem with mech not with bio. There shouldn't be any direct, 1a hard counter to a style, like Immortals.
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I agree with everything that has been said in this discussion. Plus mech is a positional play and position of your army plays lesser role compared to unit composition. In BW mech was strong because holding key positions / aqcuiring theese positions was stronger.
Also, I like how every new unit / buff is released to help mech just makes bio even stronger oO. Mines, Hellbats plus a Raven buff. Maybe just Viking buff is an exception...
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Heya guys, i felt compelled to post because i absolutely loved mvps Mech play in wol and i play mech in tvz to this day because of it. I agree with most of what's been said. I mostly think that the tank needs a buff, both for tvz and for tvp. A bit off topic maybe, but I think tanks should be. Buffer in a way that helps them vs immortals aswell maybe an increase in splash damage radius instead of a damage buff?
EDIT: I also think that a buff to tanks should probably be accompanied by a nerf to widow mines. This would make it a bit more fair, since terran isnt statistically OP or UP right now. Essencially widow mines just completely took over the role of the tank in the old school marine tank medivac compositions. Tanks used to be required for sniping banelings at a distance. Now widow mines do this, and they murder mutalisks and clumps of roach ling equally well too! I think that this unit might need to be adjusted so that its role doesnt overlap with the siegetank any more. An option might be to drastically reduce its damage radius, but slightly increase its damage. this would make it much less effective against banelings, but still potentially usefull against clumped up mutalisks. At least this way there could be room for both widow mines AND tanks in standard terran versus zerg play.
What I do disagree witth though is that maps that favour mech are equally good for bio in tvz. On Akilos wastes for example, you can take 4 bases really safely. The only way to exploit this advantage is to take 8 gases and to play Mech, since saturating 4 bases worth of mineral lines early on for mass bio is not good (3 cc is better). The map also has a tonne of choke points to do,us your tank fire on.
The fact that the map pool now is filled with gigantic open maps (whirlwind, god that map makes me irk) makes mech not worth practicing. That is at least how I see it, although I'm only high dia / low master. Afaik if there are more 2 player maps with narrower paths introduced, Mech could be viable without any balance changes.
EDIT 2: fixed some spelling errors. Smart phone autocorrect, oh how can you fail me so?
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Mech TvZ just has the same fate as Mech TvP, it's a bit underpowered, though not as badly as in TvP.
Roaches into SH into vipers just does too well against mech not even mentioning how muta's are very scary too. I still think mech is quite a solid strategy on some of the more narrow maps but not as effective as biomine. I do feel it;s a little underused as aggressive hellbat-tank plays can be really good on some of the smaller maps
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On July 09 2013 06:36 G-force wrote:
Heya guys, i felt compelled to post because i absolutely loved mvps Mech play in wol and i play Mech in tvz to this day because of it. I agree with most of what's been said. I mostly think that the tank needs a buff, both for tvz and for tvp. A bit off topic maybe, but I think tanks should be. Buffer in a way that helps them vs immortals aswell. Maybe an increase in splash damage radius intease of a damage buff?
What I do disagree witht though is that maps that favour Mech are equally good for bio in tvz. On Akilos wastes for example, you can take 4 bases really safely. The only way to exploit this advantage is to take 8 gases and to play Mech, since saturating 4 bases worth of mineral lines early on for mass bio is not good (3 cc is better). The map also has a tonne of choke points to do,us your tank fire on.
The factthat the map pool now is filled with gigantic open maps(whirlwind, god that map makende me irk) makes Mech not worth practicing. That is at least how I see it, although I'm only high dia / low master. Afaik if there are more 2 player maps with narrower paths introduced, Mech could be viable without any balance changes
The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against.
It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now:
zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increas the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same.
Such a change could look like this:
- Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
- Splash damage percentages changed:
100% damge area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored)
50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored)
25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
- Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lvsrgoR.jpg)
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Big J, you convinced me that maybe a buff to splash damage for the tank wouldnt be the best for TvZ and TvT. That does leave the question of TvP though, since main target damage does not buff tanks vs immortals (hardened shields and all that). Also, the problem vs chargelots is mainly the fact that your tanks will start to friendly fire eachother if the zealots are on top of them. Perhaps an increase in tank HP is a possibility.
Markwerf: hellbat-tank builds may look strong but if you dont add at least 4 thors your going to die to any kind of spire timing. And a good zerg will throw down a spire in responce to seeing mech, just for the chance to run a thor-less army over with mutas.
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On July 09 2013 07:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:36 G-force wrote:
Heya guys, i felt compelled to post because i absolutely loved mvps Mech play in wol and i play Mech in tvz to this day because of it. I agree with most of what's been said. I mostly think that the tank needs a buff, both for tvz and for tvp. A bit off topic maybe, but I think tanks should be. Buffer in a way that helps them vs immortals aswell. Maybe an increase in splash damage radius intease of a damage buff?
What I do disagree witht though is that maps that favour Mech are equally good for bio in tvz. On Akilos wastes for example, you can take 4 bases really safely. The only way to exploit this advantage is to take 8 gases and to play Mech, since saturating 4 bases worth of mineral lines early on for mass bio is not good (3 cc is better). The map also has a tonne of choke points to do,us your tank fire on.
The factthat the map pool now is filled with gigantic open maps(whirlwind, god that map makende me irk) makes Mech not worth practicing. That is at least how I see it, although I'm only high dia / low master. Afaik if there are more 2 player maps with narrower paths introduced, Mech could be viable without any balance changes The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against. It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now: zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increas the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same. Such a change could look like this: - Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
- Splash damage percentages changed:
100% damge area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored)
50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored)
25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
- Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
This would be a most elegant solution, short of redesigning Factory tech and Immortals. It has been proposed numerous times during BETA along with the +dmg to shields. If they didn't even bother to test it then, now there is no chance.
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On July 09 2013 07:25 G-force wrote:
Big J, you convinced me that maybe a buff to splash damage for the tank wouldnt be the best for TvZ and TvT. That does leave the question of TvP though, since main target damage does not buff tanks vs immortals (hardened shields and all that). Also, the problem vs chargelots is mainly the fact that your tanks will start to friendly fire eachother if the zealots are on top of them. Perhaps an increase in tank HP is a possibility.
Zealots:
hellbats are the strongest GtG counter in the game to zealots. At this point, zealots are not really something that keeps Mech from being viable in TvP, it may even be the opposite - a zealotheavy Protoss may just die to a Meching Terran that identifies this. Still, the main target buff would mean a slight buff vs them.
Immortal:
Hardened Shields will indeed always be a problem, as well as the 50damage vs armored. Unless you buff tank HP to over 200 and/or nerf hardened shields, the immortal will always be a good unit vs tanks in an isolated scenario (and is intended to be a such). However, there are quite a few ways to beat immortals when you are meching. Mines (that don't care about hardened shields) or hellions/hellbats to tank immortal shots (they are light and only receive 20damage) are such. Ghosts in the lategame to just remove the (hardened) shields are another.
The main target buff would at least make it so that tanks 3shot immortals, instead of 4shot them.
HP buff: I don't think it makes much of a difference whether tanks have +20HP, apart from mutalisk play and interaction with other longrange units (mainly other tanks). If a real threat reaches your tanks, they will go down very fast. Smaller threats can always be dealt with support units or unsieging.
Edit: I think the main target buff combined with a blinding cloud redesign (instead of melee range, range of blinded units gets reduced by 4 - while getting a bigger radius to cover more units) would go a long way to make pure mech stronger in all matchups, without breaking anything.
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Y'know it's weird. I never get to use vipers in zvt because no one makes tanks even if I try to bait them by going roach. The times I do use vipers against non-tanks, they're really awful. Blinding cloud doesn't do much against bio since it's so mobile, it doesn't affect air, pretty much all it does is make tanks useless. But it's so good at that, that there's just a gentleman's agreement in the metagame that no one is going to go mech, and no one is going to make vipers either.
I think what it comes down to, yet again, is biomine being the best composition in every stage of the game, from early to ultra-late, with the only variance being how much and when. It pains me to compare pvz to tvz, Where in the former, there are many options on both sides and compositional evolutions that occur throughout the game - Lings and Zealots get less and less useful, Both sides are required to invest in stronger anti-air the longer the game goes on, both sides eventually need spellcasters to round out their armies... But in tvz, the terran army from minute 8 to minute 28 looks about the same, just with better upgrades, while the zerg is forced to tech up and change compositions because of how inefficient their earlier armies become based on those simple upgrades the terran gets. And it doesn't really matter what the zerg composition is, since biomine fares pretty well against everything from lings to broodlords.
Pvz is my favorite matchup in hots right now. It's so diverse. Tvz is my least favorite because it's so stagnant.
I'd love to see some of the power of earlier terran units reduced and the power of their later units increased. I have no problem with the winrates right now but it just seems to me like terran players don't have enough incentive to tech up past medivacs ever, while the other two races are allowed or are even required to move all the way to the end of their tech tree. I'd love to see mech or even skyterran more often. But thors and battlecruisers and ghosts are all so bad in tvz, which makes vipers too strong against mech and sky. It's a conundrum.
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On July 09 2013 07:45 darkscream wrote:
Y'know it's weird. I never get to use vipers in zvt because no one makes tanks even if I try to bait them by going roach. The times I do use vipers against non-tanks, they're really awful. Blinding cloud doesn't do much against bio since it's so mobile, it doesn't affect air, pretty much all it does is make tanks useless. But it's so good at that, that there's just a gentleman's agreement in the metagame that no one is going to go mech, and no one is going to make vipers either.
I think what it comes down to, yet again, is biomine being the best composition in every stage of the game, from early to ultra-late, with the only variance being how much and when. It pains me to compare pvz to tvz, Where in the former, there are many options on both sides and compositional evolutions that occur throughout the game - Lings and Zealots get less and less useful, Both sides are required to invest in stronger anti-air the longer the game goes on, both sides eventually need spellcasters to round out their armies... But in tvz, the terran army from minute 8 to minute 28 looks about the same, just with better upgrades, while the zerg is forced to tech up and change compositions because of how inefficient their earlier armies become based on those simple upgrades the terran gets. And it doesn't really matter what the zerg composition is, since biomine fares pretty well against everything from lings to broodlords.
Pvz is my favorite matchup in hots right now. It's so diverse. Tvz is my least favorite because it's so stagnant.
I'd love to see some of the power of earlier terran units reduced and the power of their later units increased. I have no problem with the winrates right now but it just seems to me like terran players don't have enough incentive to tech up past medivacs ever, while the other two races are allowed or are even required to move all the way to the end of their tech tree. I'd love to see mech or even skyterran more often. But thors and battlecruisers and ghosts are all so bad in tvz, which makes vipers too strong against mech and sky. It's a conundrum.
Your first paragraph explains perfectly my trouble with mech in TvZ. Vipers have no use in TvZ outside of an arguable hard counter to siege tanks. Blizzard simultaneously tried to buff mech and introduce vipers, which have no use outside of a meching terran.
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EPT
