EPT[G] Roach-Ling Revisited: Zerg vs Protoss (HotS) - Page 2
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Skotie
United States10 Posts
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JayLay
United States13 Posts
A ZvZ anit muta guide would be nice  | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 28 2013 07:23 BuiBui wrote: Thanks Tang. I love how you explained the WHOLE build order, Including ovie timings, and why you intentionally supply block yourself. As a peer of yours, I have tried your build -----> Ultra hydra late game, with viper, Works wonders at the Master/Gm lvl Hooks me up with a few replays that make it to late game!! :D | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 28 2013 17:45 ConGee wrote: Tang, I think you mean stephano in your tidbit about swarm hosts. Idea tends to go for ultra/infestor in late game ZvP. Thanks yeah I've seen that from Idra - and surprisingly some late-game Broodlord play from Stephano. But I've seen both players try the swarm-host style late game (not super-late game, but as a transition after Roach/Hydra). | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:54 Eiskaffee wrote: Yeah roach ling aggression never stoped beeing viable, the problem is if u cant break the protoss with it if hes turteling right. And, if u cant break him its dead supply, i cant tell how many times i died because he had suddenly collossus and my army was worthless all of the sudden. Nevertheless good guide. Good points, what you say is definitely true - but the better you hit your timings, the more likely your Roaches will break his third. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On March 29 2013 06:03 TangSC wrote: Hooks me up with a few replays that make it to late game!! :D I will find some when I get back home from work. Hope I saved the one I have in mind for star station. >< | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Rossbacher
28 Posts
If roach aggression is the right answer to the current meta, I don't know. But after reading your guide, I tried the good old roach push on ladder (diamond) again, and to my surprise it worked every time. It seems that most Protosses at least on my level play really really greedy nowadays. Plus the roach max is a superb mechanics training. All in all thanks for your effort and time | ||
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FCLogan
49 Posts
With that said, good work on the guides. I don't want to come off as critical. I truly do appreciate the effort you have put into these guides. I can't watch your videos because I get a headache watching them, but it's probably an issue limited to only a minority of the community. Moreover, the rest of your guide is very well done. Good work and thanks! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 03 2013 03:41 FCLogan wrote: I generally like your guides. However, your video guides are a little hard to see when you move from one area to the next because of the lower video quality. In the future, if possible, higher resolution videos would be nice. I know many of us are likely spoiled with HD video quality, but I find it difficult to watch non-HD video, especially when everything gets blurry any time the screen moves rapidly. With that said, good work on the guides. I don't want to come off as critical. I truly do appreciate the effort you have put into these guides. I can't watch your videos because I get a headache watching them, but it's probably an issue limited to only a minority of the community. Moreover, the rest of your guide is very well done. Good work and thanks! No I actually really appreciate you mentioning that, I'm sure quite a few people get a headache from the poor video quality. I streamed these before I updated my internet - I used to have .5 upload lol. Future videos will be streamed in 720p, which should make the quality much more bearable. Not to mention I have sweet new overlays courtesy of -ReD- :D | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 02 2013 21:29 Rossbacher wrote: The quality of this guide is beyond awesome and definitely sets standards! If roach aggression is the right answer to the current meta, I don't know. But after reading your guide, I tried the good old roach push on ladder (diamond) again, and to my surprise it worked every time. It seems that most Protosses at least on my level play really really greedy nowadays. Plus the roach max is a superb mechanics training. All in all thanks for your effort and time Thanks Rossbacher, that has been my experience with the style as well. It certainly is one of the best styles to improve mechanics, and with the new transitions available, I think we'll be seeing a resurgence of heavy roach aggression.. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 02 2013 04:36 Lobotomist wrote: I really like the focus on drone count, proper saturation and correct drone distribution throughout the guide. I've begun to notice these more in all aspects of my play after reading this. That's great, I'm glad because incorrect drone distribution is my biggest pet peeve in SC2 lol. Heaven help those who triple-mining a mineral patch . . . | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I always wonder though if it wouldn't be more efficient to start the 3rd queen before the 3rd hatch. A queen basically is just as much a boost in production as a hatchery since injecting gives about the same larvae as a hatch. Of course you can't inject 3 times without a 3rd hatch but that is delayed in the 3rd hatch before 3rd queen build as well by having the queen late. I know it's an intricate order of building stuff to have overlords popping at exactly the right time etc. which might be interfered by going 3rd queen before 3rd hatch but theoretically it just seems to me 3rd queen first is more efficient. Making the hatch costs you the drone while making a queen doesn't. Of course queen takes 2 supply while hatch actually gives 2 but queen finishes faster and let's you get that early creep tumor faster which i like for connecting third comfortably. With the late tumor it's a bit more difficult at times to defend small pressure. Admittedly I haven't tested enough if it's possible to get the build to line out as smoothly then, perhaps the 3rd finishing on time is crucial for it being smooth. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:46 Markwerf wrote: I always wonder though if it wouldn't be more efficient to start the 3rd queen before the 3rd hatch. I've seen some players prefer to take their third around 5minutes, because they get the third Queen earlier and they reach full 2-base saturation earlier. I'm not certain of the numbers | ||
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Spow
19 Posts
I have some questions though (please note I'm only plat): - By trying the build out, I noticed I float quite a bunch of mins. Shouldn't you therefore start double upgrades by taking 5/6 geysers instead of 4 ? I really don't like the idea of single upgrades. - How do you scout on a 4 players map (I have Whirlwind in mind) ? Even if the OV is lucky it comes too late to see the P expanding. - Could you lay out the scouting information and reactions you give in the video in the first post ? (i.e. don't take third if he didn't expand and take gas for ling speed, the 0/1/2 gas info at P nat etc ...). It'd be a tremendous help for plat players like me that need to see stuff written down to understand it. - Also writing down the tips (double rally nat/army for reinforcements ... ) would be great. - How do you protect against oracles with only one queen per base ? My usual style is 4 queens on 2 bases + OVs on the paths to mineral lines so deflecting oracles is easy, but I don't see how you manage say 2 queens vs 2 oracles ! (have yet top see the replays though) Remarks: - At one point in the videos (on Antiga Shipyard) you say you messed up the rally of your army because you were probably injecting. I assume you're aware that you can inject by clicking on the minimap ? - If you still have the source files for the videos, re-uploading them in better quality would be nice. - Are you in diamond ? How come you play vs GM players then ? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
You shouldn't float minerals with this build unless you're missing larva production or injects, but if you want to get +1+1, delay the evo chambers and go for 5 Geysers instead of 4 (I've been doing 5 gas every game lately because it makes any tech transition easier). On 4-player maps you can always drone-scout. I've yet to have much trouble with Oracles tbh (at least not in ZvP), one well-placed Spore with a Queen is usually enough. Even if 1-2 Oracles completely surprise you when they fly into the main, you can pull your Drones to the natural while you build Spores. Having 4 Queens on 3 bases, you should be able to get 3 Queens in position to defend. Sure he's going to kill a Queen and some Drones, but it's a significant investment for him, and Oracles are not particularly helpful in defending mid-game Roach aggression, nor do Oracles contribute well to a late-game engagement. I always do the 55v 66v 77v inject method. I like it more than clicking the mini-map. I'm currently in master league with a competitive win/loss ratio and MMR. | ||
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genzzz
France10 Posts
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jbuck92
United States13 Posts
If there are no proxy pylons/gateways anywhere to be found, you should still be keeping a ling/ovie at their natural ramp to watch for troop movement. The second their troops move out you still have time to double evo/spine block your natural and reinforce. Be sure to keep fighting on the creep and stay near your spine crawlers for the extra support. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
On May 10 2013 05:16 genzzz wrote: Hello, how do you counter gateway opener into fast expand for the protoss with 4 gate pressure ? this build allows you to counter gate way expands/naniwai style 4 gate so much easier then hots standard builds atm. The weakness of nani build is early roach/ling pressure, Reason nani was doing his build was vs the 3 base all 6 gas into mass lair tech, or the pure ling style. Nani never faced any zerg going ling/roach wol style. So +1 roach pressure should own any early gate way builds, if he stays on 1 base u stay on 2 bases, all about scouting. This build is so great vs what protoss have been doing now, Protoss have been doing early gate way all ins, or that new 2 colosi 2 immortal 2 base all in. This build counters all of that pretty easy if you harass well and keep his numbers low, then you can tran into a basic hydra/roach/viper timing attack afterwards. You can also take your 4th base very easy. Remeber in Wol this build was used by stephano to get infestor/broodlord out quickly. Now you can get viper/hydra out behind it instead. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 10 2013 05:16 genzzz wrote: Hello, how do you counter gateway opener into fast expand for the protoss with 4 gate pressure ? Well the only problem with that 4-gate pressure is the timing arrives around 8:00 (before Roach Production). So if you know your opponent has gone Gateway first, and you see additional gateways at the front (or with a scouting overlord), you can build your Roach warren a bit earlier (~6:15-6:30) and start unit production by about 7:30. It cuts into your economy to do this, naturally, but you can hold your third. Another option is just to play it out just like you would against a FFE, and just sacrifice the third and rebuild after you hold. It sounds strange, but there's nothing wrong with losing the third against a Gateway expand --> Push: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2134618 | ||
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