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[G] Roach-Ling Revisited: Zerg vs Protoss (HotS)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 02:39:50
March 18 2013 22:19 GMT
#1
Roach-Ling Revisited ZvP (HotS)

[image loading]

Introduction

+ Show Spoiler +
Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen of TeamLiquid, and thank you for reading.

The standard timings for Zerg vs Protoss, developed in Wings of Liberty by players like DRG and Stephano, don’t appear to be weakened in the new expansion. Heart of the Swarm presents Zerg players with a few helpful upgrades and units for ZvP – namely the awesome Viper and the new Hydra ups – but Protoss get some goodies too (Mothership Core, Oracle). For the most part, there haven’t been any HUGE changes to the opening strategies; we still see FFE/Gate First vs 3 Hatcheries most times.

The refined gas timings from Wings of Liberty, ie. double gas (6:00) or triple gas (6:30), are still viable. The 6:30-7:00~ Roach Warren and Evo Chamber are still safe, and if your opponent isn’t going for an early Gateway All-In, it’s also safe to start your Lair and 3rd/4th around the usual time (7:15-7:45), then begin the sequence of Zergling Speed, +1 Range Attack, Macro Hatch and Roach Speed before starting Roach production at 8:30~. The primary benchmark to aim for in ZvP is 60-65 Drones by the 8:00 mark (48 Drones optimally saturating Minerals 16/base, 4 or 5 Gases filled, and the previously-mentioned buildings/upgrades). All the potential lies in reaching this benchmark, because it presents Zergs with quite a few options for the mid-game.

There are some new situations that Zergs need to be aware of though, like new types of early pressure (Zealot/Stalker + Mship Core). If this arrive unexpectedly, you could lose your third Queen and even a few Drones, but at the same time you don't want to overproduce Zerglings. Unless there is more than one Zealot, you can hold it well with a few Zerglings (6-8) and 2 Queens. It seems safe to say that an earlier 4th Queen will become a casual part of ZvP to offset the Mship Core advantage, and that extra creep doesn't hurt either.

Protoss are presented with a few buffed mid-game timings as well. Those old-school 4-5 Gateway +1 warp-ins (and similar Gateway timings that hit around 8:00) now come with the Mship Core, which, don’t ya know, never dies. Early on it kills your innocent Zerglings minding their own business on the Xel-Naga towers, and you desperately think to yourself, “can I bring a Queen now, at 23 supply, and please kill this damn thing?” But you can’t, just gotta accept that any time you move out anywhere with Roaches/Lings, that stupid flying thing is going to just lazily sit there grinning and racking up mad kills for doing nothing. But calm down Zergs, it's okay it's okay,because Roaches are still good. Hallelujah!

The mid-game focus of this guide is optimizing your +1 Speed Roach aggression (~11Min). Some players have been turned off of this heavy Roach-aggression style in ZvP because of Sentries and Immortals and Colossus. These players think Roaches can’t break fortified expansions, or that a pure-Roach army cannot engage a Protoss ball, but the fact is there are many subtleties in macro and strategy that can make your mid-game Roach aggression more effective, and you'll soon see that Roaches are as potent mid-game choice as any other.

Not only are Roaches as good as ever, but Hydralisks are much-improved, which creates some unique new transitions and late game compositions. Going Roach/Hydra ZvP too far into the mid-game used to be dangerous in Wings of Liberty because of the immobility of the Hydralisks off-creep. It made it tough to pull away from a bad engagement or bait forcefields, but now with the Hydralisk speed upgrade, the Roach/Hydra composition is now much more maneuverable. You can be active on the map, darting in knowing that you can retreat. One of the most amazing developments in this matchup is the Viper - once you reach Hive tech in the late game, you can continue into 3/3 with the Roach/Hydra and mix in Vipers to snipe his vital units (Colossus/Mothership). The passive Infestor/Broodlord/Spinecrawler strategy seems a ghost of the past; it’s time for a more relentless approach.

So the first two sections of the guide are titled Build and Benchmarks, and here I've assembled screen shots for the visual learners. This is less about situational-responding and more about timings and consistency. The goal is make the build as crisp and perfect as possible so that you can macro up a precisely-timed Roach push. Seriously, I'm obsessive-compulsive when it comes to these early game optimizations, partly because I think precision and consistency are key for developing players, and partly because I just enjoy it. So if you're already a master player, you may have variations that you stick to, but if you're below master, you may want to go through the exact steps I've outlined and pay attention to the important subtleties.

The next three sections of the guide are tutorial videos, which are much more detailed and comprehensive than those in previous guides I've written. The video content is based on three years of coaching experience, observation of top-professionals, and competition at the top master/GM level. There are vital tips for those seeking to develop consistency and mechanics, but there is also in-depth analysis of engagements, micro, and decision-making designed for moderate and even experienced Zerg players. The tutorials also feature games against many different styles: Skytoss, Cannon Rushes, 2-Gate Zealots, Immortal-Sentry All-In, Immortal-Sentry-Colossus All-in, Mship Core/Gateway Timings.

The last section of the guide is called Transitions. One of the nice benefits of the 60~ Drone Roach-Aggression mid-game is that while you push, you have an income of approximately 2,000 minerals/minute (assuming all patches are double mining instead of single/triple ). That means you can trade Roaches like there's no tomorrow, but you also have the economy to transition quite quickly. To produce an additional 18 Drones, 2 Gas, and a Hatchery costs less minerals than you mine in one minute. This 74-Drone economy (18 in Gas, 54 on minerals) is sufficient to constantly re-max a 2-2 Speed Roach/Hydra army. If you go up to a fully-satured 4- bases with 80~ Drones and 8 Gas, you can move into Hive for Vipers and 3/3.


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +
vs AsaZZang (Macro game with all kinds of HotS shenanigans): http://drop.sc/311146

vs Ska (Early Immortal/Sentry): http://drop.sc/311152

vs Ghills (Standard Immo-Sentry All-In): http://drop.sc/311144

vs PwFGroet (Early Mothership Warp, Collossus All-In): http://drop.sc/311160

vs FindingNemo (Immo/Sentry All-In): http://drop.sc/311162

vs Euphoria (Cannon Rush into 7Gate): http://drop.sc/311163

vs IIIIIIIIIII (Hyper-Aggressive Cannon Rush into SkyToss): http://drop.sc/311164

vs JustinBieber (Hair Flip): http://drop.sc/311165

vs Mekar (Early Warp timing kills third hatch): http://drop.sc/311166

vs TesseracT (2Gate Zealot into Macro): http://drop.sc/311167

vs Cjsg (Early 1-base Mothership Core Pressure): http://drop.sc/311168

vs Ocelot (DTs): http://drop.sc/311161

vs Remspoor (Fast Third): http://drop.sc/311143

vs Alison (Phoenix-Pressure into Third): http://drop.sc/311145

vs Alison (Standard): http://drop.sc/311153

vs Emyndri (Early warp pressure, late RW!): http://drop.sc/311148

vs IIIIIIIIlI (Standard): http://drop.sc/311150

vs Grape (Scary Early MShip/Warp timing): http://drop.sc/311151

vs Trace (DT / Blink All-In): http://drop.sc/311154

vs Spraypaint (Standard): http://drop.sc/311155

vs Sosuka (Standard): http://drop.sc/311156

vs Superficial (Standard): http://drop.sc/311157

vs Tribones (Fast Third): http://drop.sc/311159

vs DarK (Standard): http://drop.sc/311142


Build and Benchmarks (Basics):

+ Show Spoiler +
Note that unmarked gains in Supply are Drones, and this is assuming a "standard" game against an opponent who FFEs:
15Pool
17Hatch (Some players get on 15/16, other steps stay the same)
16Overlord
16Queen
18 Zerglings (2 Set)
20 Drone (Rallied to build third base)
21 Queen (Started right after first Queen in main. Inject first queen, move to expansion)
24 Third Hatchery (4;30)
24 Overlord (Rallied to possible Proxy-Pylon locations)
24-32 Drones
32 Overlord
32 Queen
34-44 Drones
44 Overlord
44 Gasx2 (6:00)
42 Overlord
42-54 Drones
54 Roach Warren/Evolution Chamber (7:00)
54-60 Drones
60 Lair (First 100 Gas, 7:15)
60 Overlordx2
60 Gasx2 (At your third)
60-68~ Drones (Zergling Speed with 2nd 100 Gas)
68 Macro Hatch, +1, 5 Overlords (8:15)
68-160 Roaches (11:00 +1 Speed Roach Timing)
140-200 Roach-Max or Transition


Build and Benchmarks (Advanced):

+ Show Spoiler +
15 Pool

[image loading]

Safe and economical.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

17 Hatchery (Blocked a bit)

[image loading]

Some players go for an earlier expansion Hatchery, but I choose 17 because it allows me to double-mine every patch in the main super-early. If they block you for a bit with their Probe, just start your Overlord on 17.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

17 Hatchery

[image loading]

Probe blocked Hatchery for a bit, if he did choose to pylon-block, I'd start a gas to get to 16 Supply to build then Queen, then cancel the Gas and build 2-3 Sets of Zerglings when the Pool finishes. I personally never take my third before the natural, and don't advise it at all.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

16 Queen and Lings

[image loading]

As soon as the Pool is done, grab 2 Sets of Zerglings and a Queen. If your expansion wasn't pylon blocked, you can inject and move the Queen down to the expansion. Always build 2 Sets of Lings, don't try to be greedy - it's not a worthwhile corner to cut.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Main Fully-Saturated

[image loading]

Note that 16-Drone saturation (2 per patch) is optimal base saturation, which you'll eventually want for all your bases.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

20 - Drone Rallied for the Third

[image loading]

The next Drone you build after your 2 Sets of Zerglings can be rallied to your third. Don't touch those main minerals! You can still start your third by 4:15/4:30.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

2nd Queen and Drones

[image loading]

While the Drone builds and runs to your third, start your 2nd Queen in the main (putting you at 23 supply). and you even have the option of getting the Overlord on 23 before the third. Long story short - don't rush the third, be calm about it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

23-24 Hatchery

[image loading]

When the Drone you built on 20 Supply arrives at your third, start the Hatchery. Make sure an Overlord flying over where your Hatchery will go, making sure there's no Pylon/Cannons, and you should consider rallying some or all of your first 4 Zerglings to your third to make sure he doesn't block you.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

23/24 Overlord

[image loading]

This game I got my Overlord on 25 supply after my third, and it slightly delayed me from using my inject-larva right away. Either get it on 23 just before the third Hatchery, or immediately after.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Drone hard to 32, then Overlord/Queen

[image loading]

This step is extremely important. The 32 Overlord timing is one of the most crucial for this build because it allows you to spend your first double-inject on Drones. After the Overlord, start your 3rd Queen at the natural.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spread a Creep Tumour and line-up your three Injects

[image loading]

Once you start a Queen at your natural on 32, spread a creep tumour with the Queen that is already there and then move her to the third. That way by the time the 2nd Queen comes out at the natural, the other Queen arrives at the third and you can triple-inject.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

44 Overlord

[image loading]

Drone hard to 44 - an intentional supply block. Start an Overlord on 44, then double-gas (I do this at the natural expansion always). The Supply block on 44 may feel strange, but it is actually well-optimized: the double Gas frees up two Supply, and the 3rd hatchery finishes to give you two more. This lets you spend any minerals/Larva you have while the Overlord builds.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

44 Another Overlord

[image loading]

This is around the time your triple-injects will be coming into play, so you need a 2nd Overlord in the mid-40s of Supply. Many players double-Overlord on 44 because economy is in overdrive, making it less important that your Overlord timings be crisp. To nitpick, it is best to go 44 Overlord, double gas, drones to 46 (hatch finishes) then another Overlord.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

6:20 - First Triple-Inject

[image loading]

Assuming all has gone to plan, this is when you should hit your first triple-inject. If you have to delay your injects a few seconds to line them up, do so! Time is a resource in SC2, don't waste your time by staggering the injects.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

7:00 Warren and Evo

[image loading]

You should reach 54~ supply by 7:00, then build your Warren/Evo. This timing has been set in stone since WoL, and is still safe in most scenarios. Build it at the natural to avoid touching those double-mining patches in the main!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

7:15~ Lair

[image loading]

Your first 100 Gas should go into Lair, at which point you want to start your 3rd/4th geysers. I always take these at the third and recommend this method, with the goal of again keeping the main 16/drone saturation, but you could just build them in the main and reset the rally. To each their own.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

7:30 Pressure Zealot/Stalker/MShip Core

[image loading]

Don't overreact to this type of pressure by building 20 Slow Lings, 3-4 Sets of Lings with your Queen is plenty. Try to cling to your creep, ideally you'll have the tumour to the third by now.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

May not hurt to get another Queen at third

[image loading]

Try not to be a noob like me and lose your Queen to this light pressure, but mistakes happen so as soon as you know she's going to die, start building another one and consider sending the Queen from the natural to help if your Drones dying to the Mship Core. Not a bad idea to just blindly get a fourth Queen at the third after your Roach Warren/Evo (54 Supply). Another note: My Zergling Speed and +1 are being started at the same time here, which isn't ideal. Generally you should use your first 100 Gas on Lair, second 100 Gas on Zergling Speed, third 100 Gas on +1.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

72~ Roach Speed / Macro Hatch / Overlords

[image loading]

Around the time you start +1 you should be fully saturated at your main/natural/third with 4 Gas filled (72~ Supply). At this point, you should be moving into Roach production, so build LOTS of Overlords. Usually 5+ Overlords before Roach production is a good idea. Building poorly-timed Overlords when your Droning can hurt you, but building extra Overlords won't hurt you once you move into Roach production because all that Supply is going to go into Roaches anyway.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Key Economic Benchmark - 60~ Drones

[image loading]

I've reached the critical income, though a bit later than usual because of the pressure.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Roach Production: Larva Low, High Supply, Keep Creep

[image loading]

Enough said.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Scout potential third

[image loading]

On most maps your first Overlord can do this, but you could always send a Speedling or Overseer to be sure. Happened to see some Phoenix moving out this time too.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Responding to the Phoenix + Third

[image loading]

Against most Stargate openings, 1-2 Spores at each base is plenty - but make sure you replace those drones! Don't want to lose your 16 Drone saturation at any of your bases because you build Spores. Also, get your Overlords to safe locations above your Spores - Overlord speed is an option.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Push-Out with Roaches

[image loading]

When Roach Speed is close to done, push out. Sometimes even before speed finishes you can push, like if your opponent starts a third already.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

~11Min +1 Speed Roach Timing

[image loading]

Everything revolves around hitting this timing, because your opponents will start walling the third and getting that crucial Immortal/Sentry/Cannon defense out. Seconds can make a world of difference.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Roach-Max or Transition

[image loading]

Off of this nice 60+ Drone economy, you can constantly trade Roaches and be relentlessly aggressive, or you can start to transition into Hydra/Roach with more upgrades and a 4th base.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Tutorial 1 - Nit-Picking to the Point of Perfection (Standard ZvP Games):

+ Show Spoiler +
This is a really important tutorial for learning Zergs, and I think even most master players will pick up some useful tips from it. I've spent a lot of time practising this style at the top master/GM level, and I also have extensive experience teaching it to students. As I've mentioned before, I really enjoy paying attention to all the subtle details, not just because it's fun, but because they have tremendous impact on your play.

http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/369119394


Tutorial 2 - The Best Defence is Good Offence (Aggressive/All-In Protoss):

+ Show Spoiler +
The key to playing Roach/Ling effectively is to get out on the field and threaten, trade, and counter. Don't be afraid to be aggressive and lose units across the map because as long as you have that nice economy to back it up, you can reproduce your army before Protoss can push you. Saved the best game for last! There are quite a few scary games in this tutorial, including like the 8 minute Zealot warp-ins with MShip core, the Immortal/Sentry All-In, and the Colossus All-in.

http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/369137222#


Tutorial 3 - When Things Go Wrong (Decision-Making, Responding, and Learning from Mistakes):

+ Show Spoiler +
This is a great tutorial if you have trouble reading your Protoss opponent, or if you're struggling against cheesy builds. We look at some ways to handle cannon rushes, 2-gates, early warp-ins, etc. There are also games where things just straight-up go wrong, like losing the third, and how you can best react to these less-than-ideal situations.

http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/369153276#


Tutorial 4 - Transitions:

+ Show Spoiler +


Assuming you've fully saturated three bases in the midgame, you should have an income of approximately 2,000 minerals/minute. So massing Roaches until you max and then trading constantly is one option, but you can also start your 4th and power Drones to transition. Starting a fourth and an additional 20~ Drones costs about 1300 minerals, which takes you less than a minute to mine off a fully-saturated three bases. Moving up to 75-80 Drones on 4 bases allows you to transition into Hive tech with either Roach/Hydra/Corruptor, Roach/Hydra/Swarm Host or Roach/Hydra/Viper. No matter which option you choose, it's nice to mix in Hydras due to their increased mobility.

Roach/Hydra is great in the midgame, but there are definitely diminishing returns as the game progresses. Against Sky-toss or double-Robo Colossus, it can get to the point where Hydras won't cut it and you need to mix in Corruptors. But by adding 8-12 Corruptors, you can engage more cost-efficiently. Three bases worth of gas won't cut it for sustained production, so you'll need your fourth as soon as possible. Remember to use your corruption ability and focus-fire with the Corruptors.

On both their streams, I've seen both IdrA and Stephano choose Swarm Hosts as their late game focus. Generally they stick to Roach/Hydra for the midgame, but once Hive is done, you can move towards 3/3 and mix in more and more Swarm Hosts. This style is certainly viable, though it does require very active creep spread, I've even seen the EGs skip the macro hatch early on to afford more creep-Queens so that Swarm Hosts have the option of retreating after a volley of Locusts.
http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/382707630 (2hr 4min)

Many prefer to stick to Roach/Hydra, and mix in about 5 Vipers in the late game. This style doesn't necessarily demand creep spread like the Swarm Host style, but it does require a more aggressive mindset - you must trade armies constantly. You're not looking to engage a maxed-out Protoss army with Roach/Hydra/Viper. Instead, you should be pushing your opponent pretty relentlessly, using your Vipers to pick off his high-tech units like Colossus. Things start to get nasty when Protoss gets enough high-tier units out, like Templar, which can instantly kill (or at least deplete) your Vipers. You'll have to dodge more than a few Storms with this style, but if you can keep Protoss on the back foot and keep thinning their army while staying perpetually maxed, this style works wonders.


Feedback:

+ Show Spoiler +
Any improvements to content since my early days can be attributed to the feedback I've received from the TL community. Trust me, I really value your thoughts and suggestions. Don't worry about offending or flattering me! Anyone who has followed me knows I've developed a thick skin, and I can handle harsh and honest criticism without being offended. But don't be afraid to throw in the occasional praise/compliment it's important that I know what I'm doing right as well as what I'm doing wrong.

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Support and Announcements:

+ Show Spoiler +
TangStarcraft.com

My web page has been around for years, with a free sign-up and free SC2 content. I've taken countless hours to produce these guides, please take a moment to sign up and show your support. I will personally answer every single question that users post on the website. There is also coaching information for those interested in becoming the next SC2 prodigy I have three years of coaching experience and I %&$^ing love it.

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It's been a long time since I played for a competitive team, but I'm thrilled to announce that for the indefinite future, I will be an active member of the very-supportive Team All-Inspiration. It is a tight-knit community dedicated to practice and improvement - what could be wrong with that? The website is All-Inspiration.com (though it is currently being renovated/improved - shout out to EnterJayhari and ReD for their assistance with this).

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Unfortunately I streamed the tutorial videos for this guide before I improved my internet. All future videos will be streamed in higher audio/visual quality with brand new stream overlays. I aim to stream weekly competitive matches and as many tutorial videos as I can. Please follow to get a notification when the stream is live
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 22:32:26
March 18 2013 22:22 GMT
#2
Reddit Post - Downvoted below 0 within minutes of posting -_-
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
WNxTbatz
Profile Joined February 2013
Canada7 Posts
March 18 2013 22:45 GMT
#3
Awesome guide, really nice layout, and great detail! Another good guide Tang!
TFS
Profile Joined March 2011
United States53 Posts
March 18 2013 22:50 GMT
#4
Tang, you mentioned that it may be beneficial to get an early-ish fourth queen to help against early gateway unit/mscore pressure as well as giving you the ability to spread creep early on. Where would you squeeze this into the opener? The first 8 minutes of this style are so optimized that I can't see where you'd find the minerals/supply to get a fourth queen early enough to matter.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 18 2013 22:53 GMT
#5
On March 19 2013 07:50 TFS wrote:
Tang, you mentioned that it may be beneficial to get an early-ish fourth queen to help against early gateway unit/mscore pressure as well as giving you the ability to spread creep early on. Where would you squeeze this into the opener? The first 8 minutes of this style are so optimized that I can't see where you'd find the minerals/supply to get a fourth queen early enough to matter.

54 Supply, after the Roach Warren Evo. Started at the third, finishes around 7:30 just in time for the MShip core/Gate pressure.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
ZebraT
Profile Joined January 2013
United Kingdom11 Posts
March 18 2013 22:54 GMT
#6
how do you deal with early oracle/void rays?

Awsome in depth guide, love all your stuff. NICE JOB GOODSSIR
Failing is a nasty word for learning ;]
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 22:59:08
March 18 2013 22:58 GMT
#7
On March 19 2013 07:54 ZebraT wrote:
how do you deal with early oracle/void rays?

Awsome in depth guide, love all your stuff. NICE JOB GOODSSIR

Queens/Spores. Replace any drones that die / any drones that build spores. Usually 1 Spore and 1 Queen per base is enough, but I don't think there's too much harm in being safe and going for 2 Spores per base if you're struggling. Then you just need to get your Overlords to safe locations by your Spores.

Many players lose too many Overlords against Stargate because they rally most of them out onto the field, I'd argue it's better to keep most Overlords in safer locations.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
GrayFox-
Profile Joined January 2013
50 Posts
March 19 2013 01:49 GMT
#8
good guide tang
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
March 19 2013 22:40 GMT
#9
this...is exactly what I needed. as a player getting back into 1v1 I'm real excited for these type of guides that highlight the basics.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 20 2013 14:37 GMT
#10
thanks guys, nice signature lobo lol
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
rezzan
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden329 Posts
March 22 2013 17:55 GMT
#11
I remember that this build (or similar) was used for only terrans, and now it works for protoss, but would i be ready to defend stuff like, 4 gate with this build? or would i need to add some spines or whatnot to defend it and then counter?

alot of protosses likes to do early attacks with 3-6 zealots recently, and i wonder if that will be a problem..
Sponsored by Play3r.net and eurodomination.net www.twitch.tv/tacowtf
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 23 2013 13:38 GMT
#12
On March 23 2013 02:55 rezzan wrote:
I remember that this build (or similar) was used for only terrans, and now it works for protoss, but would i be ready to defend stuff like, 4 gate with this build? or would i need to add some spines or whatnot to defend it and then counter?

alot of protosses likes to do early attacks with 3-6 zealots recently, and i wonder if that will be a problem..

Like a 1base 4gate? No, you wouldn't take a third in the event your opponent hasn't expanded by 5 (Normally I take the third at 23 like the build order says, but I delay it to 5min against gateway first just to make sure he's not 4gating). You need Speedlings/Spines to hold 1base styles.

If it's a 4gate after FFE, it hits around 8:00~ so ideally you'll build the warren around 6:30 and produce some Roaches and lings when it's done. You need either to Overlord scout the gateways, or just deduce it from seeing only 2 gas.

The response to early zealots depends - I prefer just to use slow Lings with the Queens the majority of the time, but if he goes for that double-gateway +1 Zealot style (like Kiwikaki was doing with Voidrays) then you need either Spines or earlier Roaches.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
March 26 2013 22:09 GMT
#13
please update the transitions section! especially what you do against air. I'd assume you attack with a wave of roach/ling, transition to hydra, take a 4th and then...i guess go swarm host and viper? not real sure what to do after stabilizing with hydras.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
March 26 2013 22:53 GMT
#14
like
21 is half the truth
loginn
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France815 Posts
March 27 2013 08:32 GMT
#15
On March 27 2013 07:09 Lobotomist wrote:
please update the transitions section! especially what you do against air. I'd assume you attack with a wave of roach/ling, transition to hydra, take a 4th and then...i guess go swarm host and viper? not real sure what to do after stabilizing with hydras.


You usually transition into viper. Swarm host can be used but isn't required for roach ling hydra play. Later on, you should probably add Ultras into your composition.
Stephano, Taking skill to the bank since IPL3. Also Lucifron and FBH
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 27 2013 17:52 GMT
#16
On March 27 2013 07:09 Lobotomist wrote:
please update the transitions section! especially what you do against air. I'd assume you attack with a wave of roach/ling, transition to hydra, take a 4th and then...i guess go swarm host and viper? not real sure what to do after stabilizing with hydras.

Against sky-toss you probably wouldn't want to go swarm hosts...I'd lean more towards either Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or Roach/Hydra/Viper. Personally, I like to mix in 8-12 Corruptors if toss is going Skytoss, or if they get 4 or more Colossus.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 27 2013 17:53 GMT
#17
On March 27 2013 17:32 loginn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2013 07:09 Lobotomist wrote:
please update the transitions section! especially what you do against air. I'd assume you attack with a wave of roach/ling, transition to hydra, take a 4th and then...i guess go swarm host and viper? not real sure what to do after stabilizing with hydras.


Later on, you should probably add Ultras into your composition.

Have you seen any pro games with Ultra/Viper in the late game? Would love to see it, because I've yet to make an Ultra in HotS ZvP, though I would imagine they could work really well in some scenarios.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
March 27 2013 22:23 GMT
#18
Thanks Tang.

I love how you explained the WHOLE build order, Including ovie timings, and why you intentionally supply block yourself.
As a peer of yours, I have tried your build -----> Ultra hydra late game, with viper, Works wonders at the Master/Gm lvl
ConGee
Profile Joined May 2012
318 Posts
March 28 2013 08:45 GMT
#19
Tang, I think you mean stephano in your tidbit about swarm hosts. Idea tends to go for ultra/infestor in late game ZvP.
Eiskaffee
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany31 Posts
March 28 2013 17:54 GMT
#20
Yeah roach ling aggression never stoped beeing viable, the problem is if u cant break the protoss with it if hes turteling right.
And, if u cant break him its dead supply, i cant tell how many times i died because he had suddenly collossus and my army was worthless all of the sudden.
Nevertheless good guide.
Skotie
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States10 Posts
March 28 2013 20:31 GMT
#21
Great guide! I've been having issues nailing down what I want to focus on doing against Protoss (low level, silver-plat)... been throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks, good to have something so detailed to refer to.
Learning Zerg one larva at a time... it may be a while
JayLay
Profile Joined September 2011
United States13 Posts
March 28 2013 20:53 GMT
#22
Awesome guide tang! Looking forward to more and you streaming!

A ZvZ anit muta guide would be nice
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 28 2013 21:03 GMT
#23
On March 28 2013 07:23 BuiBui wrote:
Thanks Tang.

I love how you explained the WHOLE build order, Including ovie timings, and why you intentionally supply block yourself.
As a peer of yours, I have tried your build -----> Ultra hydra late game, with viper, Works wonders at the Master/Gm lvl

Hooks me up with a few replays that make it to late game!! :D
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 28 2013 21:04 GMT
#24
On March 28 2013 17:45 ConGee wrote:
Tang, I think you mean stephano in your tidbit about swarm hosts. Idea tends to go for ultra/infestor in late game ZvP.

Thanks yeah I've seen that from Idra - and surprisingly some late-game Broodlord play from Stephano. But I've seen both players try the swarm-host style late game (not super-late game, but as a transition after Roach/Hydra).
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
March 28 2013 21:07 GMT
#25
On March 29 2013 02:54 Eiskaffee wrote:
Yeah roach ling aggression never stoped beeing viable, the problem is if u cant break the protoss with it if hes turteling right.
And, if u cant break him its dead supply, i cant tell how many times i died because he had suddenly collossus and my army was worthless all of the sudden.
Nevertheless good guide.

Good points, what you say is definitely true - but the better you hit your timings, the more likely your Roaches will break his third.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
March 30 2013 14:13 GMT
#26
On March 29 2013 06:03 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2013 07:23 BuiBui wrote:
Thanks Tang.

I love how you explained the WHOLE build order, Including ovie timings, and why you intentionally supply block yourself.
As a peer of yours, I have tried your build -----> Ultra hydra late game, with viper, Works wonders at the Master/Gm lvl

Hooks me up with a few replays that make it to late game!! :D


I will find some when I get back home from work. Hope I saved the one I have in mind for star station. ><
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
April 01 2013 19:36 GMT
#27
I really like the focus on drone count, proper saturation and correct drone distribution throughout the guide. I've begun to notice these more in all aspects of my play after reading this.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Rossbacher
Profile Joined April 2011
28 Posts
April 02 2013 12:29 GMT
#28
The quality of this guide is beyond awesome and definitely sets standards!
If roach aggression is the right answer to the current meta, I don't know. But after reading your guide, I tried the good old roach push on ladder (diamond) again, and to my surprise it worked every time. It seems that most Protosses at least on my level play really really greedy nowadays. Plus the roach max is a superb mechanics training. All in all thanks for your effort and time
FCLogan
Profile Joined August 2012
49 Posts
April 02 2013 18:41 GMT
#29
I generally like your guides. However, your video guides are a little hard to see when you move from one area to the next because of the lower video quality. In the future, if possible, higher resolution videos would be nice. I know many of us are likely spoiled with HD video quality, but I find it difficult to watch non-HD video, especially when everything gets blurry any time the screen moves rapidly.

With that said, good work on the guides. I don't want to come off as critical. I truly do appreciate the effort you have put into these guides. I can't watch your videos because I get a headache watching them, but it's probably an issue limited to only a minority of the community. Moreover, the rest of your guide is very well done. Good work and thanks!
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 04 2013 12:34 GMT
#30
On April 03 2013 03:41 FCLogan wrote:
I generally like your guides. However, your video guides are a little hard to see when you move from one area to the next because of the lower video quality. In the future, if possible, higher resolution videos would be nice. I know many of us are likely spoiled with HD video quality, but I find it difficult to watch non-HD video, especially when everything gets blurry any time the screen moves rapidly.

With that said, good work on the guides. I don't want to come off as critical. I truly do appreciate the effort you have put into these guides. I can't watch your videos because I get a headache watching them, but it's probably an issue limited to only a minority of the community. Moreover, the rest of your guide is very well done. Good work and thanks!

No I actually really appreciate you mentioning that, I'm sure quite a few people get a headache from the poor video quality. I streamed these before I updated my internet - I used to have .5 upload lol. Future videos will be streamed in 720p, which should make the quality much more bearable. Not to mention I have sweet new overlays courtesy of -ReD- :D
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 12:37:57
April 04 2013 12:37 GMT
#31
On April 02 2013 21:29 Rossbacher wrote:
The quality of this guide is beyond awesome and definitely sets standards!
If roach aggression is the right answer to the current meta, I don't know. But after reading your guide, I tried the good old roach push on ladder (diamond) again, and to my surprise it worked every time. It seems that most Protosses at least on my level play really really greedy nowadays. Plus the roach max is a superb mechanics training. All in all thanks for your effort and time

Thanks Rossbacher, that has been my experience with the style as well. It certainly is one of the best styles to improve mechanics, and with the new transitions available, I think we'll be seeing a resurgence of heavy roach aggression..
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 04 2013 12:40 GMT
#32
On April 02 2013 04:36 Lobotomist wrote:
I really like the focus on drone count, proper saturation and correct drone distribution throughout the guide. I've begun to notice these more in all aspects of my play after reading this.

That's great, I'm glad because incorrect drone distribution is my biggest pet peeve in SC2 lol. Heaven help those who triple-mining a mineral patch . . .
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 04 2013 14:46 GMT
#33
This guide is great just for the detailed part on powerbooming to that 60 drone economy which is the most crucial skill in standard ZvP.
I always wonder though if it wouldn't be more efficient to start the 3rd queen before the 3rd hatch. A queen basically is just as much a boost in production as a hatchery since injecting gives about the same larvae as a hatch. Of course you can't inject 3 times without a 3rd hatch but that is delayed in the 3rd hatch before 3rd queen build as well by having the queen late. I know it's an intricate order of building stuff to have overlords popping at exactly the right time etc. which might be interfered by going 3rd queen before 3rd hatch but theoretically it just seems to me 3rd queen first is more efficient.
Making the hatch costs you the drone while making a queen doesn't. Of course queen takes 2 supply while hatch actually gives 2 but queen finishes faster and let's you get that early creep tumor faster which i like for connecting third comfortably. With the late tumor it's a bit more difficult at times to defend small pressure. Admittedly I haven't tested enough if it's possible to get the build to line out as smoothly then, perhaps the 3rd finishing on time is crucial for it being smooth.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 05 2013 23:24 GMT
#34
On April 04 2013 23:46 Markwerf wrote:

I always wonder though if it wouldn't be more efficient to start the 3rd queen before the 3rd hatch.

I've seen some players prefer to take their third around 5minutes, because they get the third Queen earlier and they reach full 2-base saturation earlier. I'm not certain of the numbers
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Spow
Profile Joined December 2010
19 Posts
April 08 2013 08:24 GMT
#35
Great guide, exactly what I needed to get into Z !

I have some questions though (please note I'm only plat):
- By trying the build out, I noticed I float quite a bunch of mins. Shouldn't you therefore start double upgrades by taking 5/6 geysers instead of 4 ? I really don't like the idea of single upgrades.
- How do you scout on a 4 players map (I have Whirlwind in mind) ? Even if the OV is lucky it comes too late to see the P expanding.
- Could you lay out the scouting information and reactions you give in the video in the first post ? (i.e. don't take third if he didn't expand and take gas for ling speed, the 0/1/2 gas info at P nat etc ...). It'd be a tremendous help for plat players like me that need to see stuff written down to understand it.
- Also writing down the tips (double rally nat/army for reinforcements ... ) would be great.
- How do you protect against oracles with only one queen per base ? My usual style is 4 queens on 2 bases + OVs on the paths to mineral lines so deflecting oracles is easy, but I don't see how you manage say 2 queens vs 2 oracles ! (have yet top see the replays though)

Remarks:
- At one point in the videos (on Antiga Shipyard) you say you messed up the rally of your army because you were probably injecting. I assume you're aware that you can inject by clicking on the minimap ?
- If you still have the source files for the videos, re-uploading them in better quality would be nice.
- Are you in diamond ? How come you play vs GM players then ?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 08 2013 15:57 GMT
#36
Thanks for the comments, Spow. Unfortunately I won't have time to re-upload another tutorial or do a more in-depth write-up, though I have other guides and SC2-related projects planned for May. I'll consider producing an updated ZvP guide down the road though! To answer some of your questions:

You shouldn't float minerals with this build unless you're missing larva production or injects, but if you want to get +1+1, delay the evo chambers and go for 5 Geysers instead of 4 (I've been doing 5 gas every game lately because it makes any tech transition easier).

On 4-player maps you can always drone-scout.

I've yet to have much trouble with Oracles tbh (at least not in ZvP), one well-placed Spore with a Queen is usually enough. Even if 1-2 Oracles completely surprise you when they fly into the main, you can pull your Drones to the natural while you build Spores. Having 4 Queens on 3 bases, you should be able to get 3 Queens in position to defend. Sure he's going to kill a Queen and some Drones, but it's a significant investment for him, and Oracles are not particularly helpful in defending mid-game Roach aggression, nor do Oracles contribute well to a late-game engagement.

I always do the 55v 66v 77v inject method. I like it more than clicking the mini-map.

I'm currently in master league with a competitive win/loss ratio and MMR.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
genzzz
Profile Joined January 2013
France10 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-09 20:17:47
May 09 2013 20:16 GMT
#37
Hello, how do you counter gateway opener into fast expand for the protoss with 4 gate pressure ?
jbuck92
Profile Joined May 2013
United States13 Posts
May 15 2013 19:59 GMT
#38
I'm only a mid-gold level player, so take my advice with a grain of salt Genzzz, but from what I've been told and my own experiences, 4 gate pressure means that the protoss is going to be sacrificing a bit of economy. If you scout proxy gates/pylons and are suspecting a warp-in, you can either double evo/spine crawler block your natural or main (depending on the map's layout), or drop 2-3 spine crawlers plus some queens for defense.

If there are no proxy pylons/gateways anywhere to be found, you should still be keeping a ling/ovie at their natural ramp to watch for troop movement. The second their troops move out you still have time to double evo/spine block your natural and reinforce. Be sure to keep fighting on the creep and stay near your spine crawlers for the extra support.
LingBlingBling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 04:43:05
May 16 2013 04:41 GMT
#39
On May 10 2013 05:16 genzzz wrote:
Hello, how do you counter gateway opener into fast expand for the protoss with 4 gate pressure ?



this build allows you to counter gate way expands/naniwai style 4 gate so much easier then hots standard builds atm.

The weakness of nani build is early roach/ling pressure, Reason nani was doing his build was vs the 3 base all 6 gas into mass lair tech, or the pure ling style.

Nani never faced any zerg going ling/roach wol style. So +1 roach pressure should own any early gate way builds, if he stays on 1 base u stay on 2 bases, all about scouting. This build is so great vs what protoss have been doing now, Protoss have been doing early gate way all ins, or that new 2 colosi 2 immortal 2 base all in.

This build counters all of that pretty easy if you harass well and keep his numbers low, then you can tran into a basic hydra/roach/viper timing attack afterwards. You can also take your 4th base very easy. Remeber in Wol this build was used by stephano to get infestor/broodlord out quickly.

Now you can get viper/hydra out behind it instead.
Remember our motto: We ain't got it.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 16 2013 13:10 GMT
#40
On May 10 2013 05:16 genzzz wrote:
Hello, how do you counter gateway opener into fast expand for the protoss with 4 gate pressure ?

Well the only problem with that 4-gate pressure is the timing arrives around 8:00 (before Roach Production). So if you know your opponent has gone Gateway first, and you see additional gateways at the front (or with a scouting overlord), you can build your Roach warren a bit earlier (~6:15-6:30) and start unit production by about 7:30. It cuts into your economy to do this, naturally, but you can hold your third. Another option is just to play it out just like you would against a FFE, and just sacrifice the third and rebuild after you hold. It sounds strange, but there's nothing wrong with losing the third against a Gateway expand --> Push:

http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2134618
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
anatase
Profile Joined May 2010
France532 Posts
May 16 2013 13:47 GMT
#41
I know it is focusing on ZvP

But this morning, in GSL Code S, Symbol showed a pretty strong ling/roach + banes vs T. (Bomber)

maybe someone could try to adopt the current BO to fit the ZvT with ling/roach/banes, seemed really strong
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 13:49:00
May 16 2013 13:48 GMT
#42
On May 16 2013 22:47 anatase wrote:
I know it is focusing on ZvP

But this morning, in GSL Code S, Symbol showed a pretty strong ling/roach + banes vs T. (Bomber)

maybe someone could try to adopt the current BO to fit the ZvT with ling/roach/banes, seemed really strong

I love Roach/Ling/Bane vs Terran, guide is already in production
I may need some Symbol replays can you link to that GSL match?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
May 16 2013 13:51 GMT
#43
On May 16 2013 22:48 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 22:47 anatase wrote:
I know it is focusing on ZvP

But this morning, in GSL Code S, Symbol showed a pretty strong ling/roach + banes vs T. (Bomber)

maybe someone could try to adopt the current BO to fit the ZvT with ling/roach/banes, seemed really strong

I love Roach/Ling/Bane vs Terran, guide is already in production
I may need some Symbol replays can you link to that GSL match?


please include his nydus all ins in your guide. would be awesome!
TaLuS
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany17 Posts
May 21 2013 13:31 GMT
#44
Hey Tang, great guide. Don't you need extra Queens for the Macro Hatches?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 22 2013 09:57 GMT
#45
On May 21 2013 22:31 TaLuS wrote:
Hey Tang, great guide. Don't you need extra Queens for the Macro Hatches?

What some players do is get a 4th queen a bit early to spread creep, and later use her to inject the macro hatch. Personally, I tend to float a bit of energy in the middle/later stages of the game while engaging with Roaches so just double-inject with 50+ energy queens, and swap them around a bit. It's technically better to get a 4th queen though, for sure.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
May 22 2013 20:12 GMT
#46
hey Tang, I just realized that exact supply count build order you have listed in the OP puts you past 60 drones (3*16 for minerals and 4*3 for gas). says you start building roaches at 72, which is 3 queens (6), 4 lings (8), 60 drones (68). are the 4 extra drones intended? I may be nit picking a bit more than necessary, but it seems within the spirit of the thread.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 24 2013 02:39 GMT
#47
On May 23 2013 05:12 Lobotomist wrote:
hey Tang, I just realized that exact supply count build order you have listed in the OP puts you past 60 drones (3*16 for minerals and 4*3 for gas). says you start building roaches at 72, which is 3 queens (6), 4 lings (8), 60 drones (68). are the 4 extra drones intended? I may be nit picking a bit more than necessary, but it seems within the spirit of the thread.

Updated - thanks! Nit picking is good :D
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Zeweig
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden189 Posts
May 26 2013 09:57 GMT
#48
I used to do this kind of style, but truth is that if toss go 1 gate and scout fast 3rd, he will kill it, even if he has to go all in. Just look at nani games in DH open, even the pros kept going fast 3 hatch, and everyone lost it more or less. 6:45 3rd is kind of standard, but will make this timing much worse...
Mothership core is a huge deal, as a fortified toss on 2 base with planetary nexus and slow + force fields and thermal lance wont ever die to roaches. He can decide to not go early 3rd, and get a few more units first, and suddenly roaches are worthless, all you can do is expand and transition right away before his army hits you.

This is good against greedy or gateway heavy players, works against phoenix before they get colossi, but other styles chew this to pieces. I feel that leenock ling/ultra/(infestor) with plating, 3/3 and adrenal is far superior.

Commentator for Esports Heaven, covering mainly European and Chinese events. I do observing and writing on the side.
benjaminethanlim
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore25 Posts
May 27 2013 01:42 GMT
#49
i just switched to Zerg and this guide has helped me heaps! thanks !
when you're sad, stop being sad and be awesome instead
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 30 2013 16:05 GMT
#50
On May 26 2013 18:57 Zeweig wrote:
I used to do this kind of style, but truth is that if toss go 1 gate and scout fast 3rd, he will kill it, even if he has to go all in. Just look at nani games in DH open, even the pros kept going fast 3 hatch, and everyone lost it more or less. 6:45 3rd is kind of standard, but will make this timing much worse...
Mothership core is a huge deal, as a fortified toss on 2 base with planetary nexus and slow + force fields and thermal lance wont ever die to roaches. He can decide to not go early 3rd, and get a few more units first, and suddenly roaches are worthless, all you can do is expand and transition right away before his army hits you.

This is good against greedy or gateway heavy players, works against phoenix before they get colossi, but other styles chew this to pieces. I feel that leenock ling/ultra/(infestor) with plating, 3/3 and adrenal is far superior.


Well I don't think gateway expand into 4-5 gate is necessarily a build order loss. With an earlier gas and RW you can actually hold your third (with admittedly limited economy and tech) and be a decent spot moving into mid-game. Also if you just do the usual droning to full 3-base saturation with a macro hatch, and sack your third, you can hold his timing, retake your third, and be even or a bit ahead. Losing the third against a GE --> Gate Push isn't a loss!

Leenock's Ling/Ultra is definitely a stronger late game style, but I also think it's pretty difficult to hold off mid-game timings with it. Roach play is better for learning players imho.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
May 30 2013 16:09 GMT
#51
im seeing a lot of zergs in the ladder doing a faster version of this one, like 5-6 minute mark wave
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Broesl
Profile Joined February 2011
Austria75 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 19:19:33
May 30 2013 16:48 GMT
#52
On May 31 2013 01:09 Twinkle Toes wrote:
im seeing a lot of zergs in the ladder doing a faster version of this one, like 5-6 minute mark wave


Hi,

just because it involves the same units doesn´t mean it is anything like this build, what you talk about are 2 base roach ling allins, this is an aggressive approach of 3base zerg in ZvP.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 14:02:02
May 31 2013 14:01 GMT
#53
On May 31 2013 01:09 Twinkle Toes wrote:
im seeing a lot of zergs in the ladder doing a faster version of this one, like 5-6 minute mark wave

I don't know many Roach builds that arrive that early...even most 1-2 base timings arrive around 7min.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
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