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On May 20 2013 19:29 Nimix wrote:Show nested quote +I had problems dealing with ultralisks too, but I found a "method" that works very well. It might not work against every zergs, especially very good ones, but if you're in diamond/low master, you will win tons of games with this :
You need to know that if you take a fight in open space against ultras, you loose. You just can't win. You need to play with the map in order to force a bad engagement from the zerg (like in chokes etc) BUT if you play on a map like Akilon wastes, there aren't many ways to force a bad engagement from the zerg, but you can "create" a bad engagement yourself !
Simply put 2 PFs close to each other in front of your natural in order to create a little choke, marauders and marines behind, window mines close to them. If the zerg engage you, the ultras will mess with the PFs, they will basicly come one by one, you just have to stim -> a move and you will simply destroy him.
The hardest thing in this method is to force the zerg to engage you. While you are sitting behind your PFs, drop him everywhere you can, don't stop dropping, deny bases etc.. If you kill alot of his bases/drones etc, he may just go for the engagement as a last resort.
That's why I currently use in top diamond/low master mmr and it's the only way I found to win against Ultralisks, if anyone got something better, post it !
It's not really that good, I faced that 2 times when offracing as zerg, lost one to a doom drop cause I was stupid and won the second game easily. While you invest into PFs (if he lets you get them up ever), he can just tech to brood/infestor and he'll destroy you anyway. But yeah against zergs that keep going into ultras and try to attack it's of course pretty good  I feel like for the price of the CC + PF you're better of going mass orbitals and sacrificing SCVS to make extra tech units, turtling has no real point as he has a better late game army than you anyway, so time is against you if he doesn't repeateadly suicide into your PFs.
I was having real troubles with ling/bane/ultra, but to be quite honest going WM, MMM. As long as you engage well rapes this... trying to straight up split without Wm's versus this compostion will not win, unless you split like DeMuslim.
It takes a period of time to figure out how to split the wm's but as soon as you figure oyut how to engage them you become really cost efficient.
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If this has been asked before I apologize (I could not find sufficient information when searching).
I'm looking for Flash's TvZ build where he opens up with a fast third CC, builds a couple of Hellions and later transitions into Bio/Mine. He pushes out @ around 140 supply, iirc.
I've been struggling a bit in TvZ lately and would really like to try something new.
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On May 20 2013 20:46 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 20:06 targ wrote:
Is is true that in TvT, Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank > Bio, assuming both players to be of similar skill levels? I've heard it being said but am not sure whether it is true or not. Mech beats both bio and bio/tank reliably; the latter more than the former. What mech doesn't beat so reliably is bio play with an air switch once the bio player is on 4 or 5 bases. Of course, this also depends on how even the players are in economy.
This pretty much from my experience. I guess for a bit I will at least switch to full mech in TvT until I run into some bio-mech players who seem to have a good plan vs mech. Tried it three times again today with bio-mech, and despite doing significant better than my enemies in the early game, in the end I simply could not deal with their army composition. Even doom dropping was fairly useless, since hellbats simply tank so much. If only they were armored it would already be alot easier.
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On May 21 2013 06:38 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 20:46 Absentia wrote:On May 20 2013 20:06 targ wrote:
Is is true that in TvT, Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank > Bio, assuming both players to be of similar skill levels? I've heard it being said but am not sure whether it is true or not. Mech beats both bio and bio/tank reliably; the latter more than the former. What mech doesn't beat so reliably is bio play with an air switch once the bio player is on 4 or 5 bases. Of course, this also depends on how even the players are in economy. This pretty much from my experience. I guess for a bit I will at least switch to full mech in TvT until I run into some bio-mech players who seem to have a good plan vs mech. Tried it three times again today with bio-mech, and despite doing significant better than my enemies in the early game, in the end I simply could not deal with their army composition. Even doom dropping was fairly useless, since hellbats simply tank so much. If only they were armored it would already be alot easier.
I've done well recently mixing in tanks, and going heavy on marauders vs full on mech. Tanks help zone out their tanks, and their hellbats, and let you kite better.
I have trouble going pure bio against a good mech player on say like...akilon.
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Innovation 3CC Reactored Hellion - when the time comes to build two engineering bays, build one E-bay and one armory. if you're starting your armory and engineering bay around 6:35ish, then you should be beginning reactored hellbat production around 8 minutes
it hits later than 2 base drops, but you have the option of going 4M + Hellbats instead of more or less having to go straight to mech otherwise
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On May 21 2013 06:38 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 20:46 Absentia wrote:On May 20 2013 20:06 targ wrote:
Is is true that in TvT, Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank > Bio, assuming both players to be of similar skill levels? I've heard it being said but am not sure whether it is true or not. Mech beats both bio and bio/tank reliably; the latter more than the former. What mech doesn't beat so reliably is bio play with an air switch once the bio player is on 4 or 5 bases. Of course, this also depends on how even the players are in economy. This pretty much from my experience. I guess for a bit I will at least switch to full mech in TvT until I run into some bio-mech players who seem to have a good plan vs mech. Tried it three times again today with bio-mech, and despite doing significant better than my enemies in the early game, in the end I simply could not deal with their army composition. Even doom dropping was fairly useless, since hellbats simply tank so much. If only they were armored it would already be alot easier.
What you could try to do is go up a base or two up, retain all of your tanks and as much bio as possible and try to get to viking/battlecruiser. I refuse to play mech simply because of hellbats, so I'm trying this now.
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Yeah I tried that yesterday, can try it again I guess. Problem is then you need to get ahead of the mech player, and thats far from trivial. Probably your best bet is hoping he doesn't realise hellbats can transform into hellions, then a bunch of marauders can delay his expansions a bit, but still it will be hard.
On May 21 2013 06:52 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 06:38 Sissors wrote:On May 20 2013 20:46 Absentia wrote:On May 20 2013 20:06 targ wrote:
Is is true that in TvT, Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank > Bio, assuming both players to be of similar skill levels? I've heard it being said but am not sure whether it is true or not. Mech beats both bio and bio/tank reliably; the latter more than the former. What mech doesn't beat so reliably is bio play with an air switch once the bio player is on 4 or 5 bases. Of course, this also depends on how even the players are in economy. This pretty much from my experience. I guess for a bit I will at least switch to full mech in TvT until I run into some bio-mech players who seem to have a good plan vs mech. Tried it three times again today with bio-mech, and despite doing significant better than my enemies in the early game, in the end I simply could not deal with their army composition. Even doom dropping was fairly useless, since hellbats simply tank so much. If only they were armored it would already be alot easier. I've done well recently mixing in tanks, and going heavy on marauders vs full on mech. Tanks help zone out their tanks, and their hellbats, and let you kite better. I have trouble going pure bio against a good mech player on say like...akilon.
The problem for me is then simply the frontal assault: nothing deals good damage against hellbats. Hellbats tank alot better than marauders, and marauders also don't kill hellbats exactly fast: pure hellbat vs pure marauder is great for the marauders, but not if the hellbats have to die quickly. So it just takes so much time to kill the hellbats, that then the enemies tanks are sieged up and ripping through your bio.
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Where should I take my third on Akilon?
I usually take the one by the rocks but I don't know if that is the best option though as I see alot of pros taking the one next to the natural.
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On May 21 2013 19:10 A Wild Sosd wrote:
Where should I take my third on Akilon?
I usually take the one by the rocks but I don't know if that is the best option though as I see alot of pros taking the one next to the natural.
Against zerg, you want it behind the rocks. Against terran you want it next to the natural (mostly because drops are easier to stop here).
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On May 20 2013 20:06 targ wrote:
Is is true that in TvT, Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank > Bio, assuming both players to be of similar skill levels? I've heard it being said but am not sure whether it is true or not.
mech > marine/tank > bio is true, bio > mech is not. I feel bio/tank vs mech is a fairly stable matchup on most maps. whirlwind/star station are extremely difficult for the mech player because you have to sacrifice power (hellbats/tanks) for mobility (blue flame hellions/vikings/raven). If you try going hellbats on whirlwind, you'll have nothing quick enough to defend multi-pronged drops.
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Vikings + missile turrets? Widow mine can't hurt either. But unless the two armies are very close to each other you don't need vikings with your army, you can savely let them guard flanks against drops.
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On May 21 2013 06:24 FrigolitH wrote:
If this has been asked before I apologize (I could not find sufficient information when searching).
I'm looking for Flash's TvZ build where he opens up with a fast third CC, builds a couple of Hellions and later transitions into Bio/Mine. He pushes out @ around 140 supply, iirc.
I've been struggling a bit in TvZ lately and would really like to try something new.
It's easy.
14 cc
15 rax
16 gas (send scouting scv, check enemy gas, get off his base, check again later)
18/19 in scv, +1 marine
make oc on both cc's
factory on 100 gas
reactor on 50 gas
add 1 supply +1 cc +1 bunker + enough supplies to wall your natural (cc goes in natural too)
you have to complete your wall til 5:50
after that, make hellion, techlab on rax, get 2nd gas, add 2 eng bay as soon as money allows.
that's the start...
You have to use your first 2 hellions to get off your base and see if roaches are coming.
If they are, make 2 extra bunkers, pull scv's to repair, finish your marine and make a marauder... don't stop mine production and make extra supplies on your main because he will crush some of your supplies in natural.
anyway, after starting your 1-1, add 2 more rax, 2 more gas, 2 more rax, 1 starport.
that's the basic of the build.
- ensure your natural is covered by ling runby at 6:00
- ensure enemy is coming or not to a roach push asap with 2 hellions (make 6 hellions, then start mines)
- start 1-1 asap
- add your extra racks, land your 3rd when you feel safe (you have to feel safe really soon! if he doesn't hit, you have to move!!!)
- then its easy, just make mass mm+wm
- hit when you have 2 to 4 medivac (if he's not being agressive)
- be ready to start your 4th
- hit hard when 2-2 finishes (get good army, go! if he's not muta you can drop with 2 medivac while you clear creep)
- keep pushing nonstop!! if you don't keep pushing, he will get mass ultra and things will get complicated.
- gg
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I dont know if u guys tried it, but after seeing MVP crush sase with it, im practising the tankcontain against Protos a bit.
Atm I try 11/11 Into tankcontain MVP style. I must say its powerfull. Anyone else tried the general MVP contain against protos?
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Is there any way at all for going for tempo based play vs toss.
I've been trying for ages but it seems thanks to the big frigging cannon on the nexus theres absolutely no way to pressure the protoss early on.....
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On May 22 2013 01:53 Bodzilla wrote:
Is there any way at all for going for tempo based play vs toss.
I've been trying for ages but it seems thanks to the big frigging cannon on the nexus theres absolutely no way to pressure the protoss early on.....
4 hellion drop works fine
or 2 widow mine 4 marine drop
or reaper harass
or 13 min scv all in
or 4 medivac doom drop on his ramp
some people also use standard hellbat drop, but i rather see more games of that vs p before trying.
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On May 22 2013 02:16 iamhope wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 01:53 Bodzilla wrote:
Is there any way at all for going for tempo based play vs toss.
I've been trying for ages but it seems thanks to the big frigging cannon on the nexus theres absolutely no way to pressure the protoss early on..... 4 hellion drop works fine or 2 widow mine 4 marine drop or reaper harass or 13 min scv all in or 4 medivac doom drop on his ramp some people also use standard hellbat drop, but i rather see more games of that vs p before trying.
GSL : MKP still pulls off the 11/11 even against planetary nexus.
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A TvT question
I've been opening up reapers in TvT, usually getting 1-2 (if he has a reaper, I get 2, if it's just a marine or a reactor, I get 1) and do an expand into 3 rax, but lately I've been having a lot of trouble holding anything that involves lots of reapers, when pumping out reapers out of 2-3 rax and I'm not sure if it's cause of my build or if I'm doing something wrong. As I usually add 2x reactors to my rax right after they're done, I usually don't have enough to defend if they come at me with more than 3 reapers... should I just make marines till I feel safer when I'm not sure if it's mass reapers?
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On May 22 2013 04:18 Chaggi wrote:
A TvT question
I've been opening up reapers in TvT, usually getting 1-2 (if he has a reaper, I get 2, if it's just a marine or a reactor, I get 1) and do an expand into 3 rax, but lately I've been having a lot of trouble holding anything that involves lots of reapers, when pumping out reapers out of 2-3 rax and I'm not sure if it's cause of my build or if I'm doing something wrong. As I usually add 2x reactors to my rax right after they're done, I usually don't have enough to defend if they come at me with more than 3 reapers... should I just make marines till I feel safer when I'm not sure if it's mass reapers?
I make 1 addon at a time when i go 3rax after expand. Techlab first for research, the reactors take a long time and i dont wanna risk a early timing.
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On May 22 2013 04:18 Chaggi wrote:
A TvT question
I've been opening up reapers in TvT, usually getting 1-2 (if he has a reaper, I get 2, if it's just a marine or a reactor, I get 1) and do an expand into 3 rax, but lately I've been having a lot of trouble holding anything that involves lots of reapers, when pumping out reapers out of 2-3 rax and I'm not sure if it's cause of my build or if I'm doing something wrong. As I usually add 2x reactors to my rax right after they're done, I usually don't have enough to defend if they come at me with more than 3 reapers... should I just make marines till I feel safer when I'm not sure if it's mass reapers?
It really just a numbers game and your build Chaggi, if you immediately make reactors on the 2 raxes you are only producing off one rax if the last rax is not producing a techlab, while your opponent is producing off 2 to 3 raxes.
If he does do a very aggressive reaper opening you might have to pull scvs depending on what build you do. So if you go for 3 raxes you will have to continue marine production until you are sure he is not going for reaper aggression.
Another thing that could help is to pull some scvs to tank for your marines forcing the reapering player to micro his reapers around the scvs to kill the marines and also pulling back your weakened marines will help your overall hold against 2 to 3 rax reaper openings.
Plus you can afford to lose a couple scvs as your expo is much faster than your opponents allowing you to catch up and overtake him in scvs
one techlab for research only is the best move to make
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
How do pros use medivacs with their army, is there any information on how players like INnoVation or Flash hotkey them? Or do they just a-move them onto a marine/marauder? Is one method more optimal than the other?
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EPT
