EPT[G] TvP Hellion Banshee Opener/All in - Page 2
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Sweetfrost
Sweden213 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Vilanoil
Germany47 Posts
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JCKE
United States52 Posts
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
The main thing against this is still scouting I think, if the protoss had gotten an observer in your base, he would've seen one gas, meaning no cloak for the banshees (and tech lab not researching), he would see the factory with a reactor, telling him no tanks, so immortals are useless (Chobbits made 2-3 immortals in the replay I think, that could've been 4-6 more stalkers). Most protoss will see the hellion banshee, and just assume it's going to be a 1/1/1, make immortals to prepare for tanks, etc. but if a protoss can actually know for certain that you are just making hellion banshee, I think if he makes pure stalker off the 1 gate FE he can hold it (with some sentries to obviously). It is kind of cool build though, as if I was going against 1/1/1 I wouldn't really want a lot of stalkers since they get owned by the tanks, I'd want like 2 for each banshee he has, but no more if I can help it. Chobbits could've held your push I think if he had: a) built 2 observers right away and sent one to your base. b) not waste money on immortals, which vs hellion banshee is just a really expensive zealot with more health c) sim city, since he knows you're making only hellions from the factory, he can assume that walling will be good, he had 5 gateways, even if he builds the initial 3 in base (since he can't really know it's not a regular 1/1/1 while building them), the extra 2 and even the twilight council could've been used to create a pvz style wall-off. d) better FFs, he doesn't use any FFs til the last engagement, and even then he doesn't actually cut the army off, if I saw an attack like that coming, i would wait for the scvs to get on the ramp, force field the hellions out, kill the scvs, then deal with the hellions. Of course the banshees are the real annoying part of your army, so killing the banshees is the most important part, but it also means that the terran player needs to have good banshee control, as sitting around with the banshees or losing even one banshee is not an option. e) I know he took economic damage from the banshees, but I still feel like he could've gotten blink by 10 minutes to hold your push, the main punch of your army is the banshees, so if he has blink your banshees become a lot more vulnerable. That being said I think this style would probably get you a good amount of ladder wins just because people will expect a regular 1/1/1, and they might be too scared of cloaked banshees to send out an early observer to your base (but I mean....if I saw banshees I wouldn't be afraid to build even 3 observers before an immortal, because the immortal is only useful against tanks in the final push, and observers build so fast anyways) I'm only dia though, so I don't know how accurate my analysis is  | ||
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framtidenskrig
Sweden92 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On January 05 2013 03:27 Whitewing wrote: What do you do if the protoss suspects hellions and just doesn't mine from his natural? Yeah, he's a little behind where he'd want to be from not mining and he might lose it, but holding your all-in attack isn't that hard from one base against hellion/banshee without tanks with siege mode. Defending harass on your probe line while you're only mining from one base is fairly trivial. You don't need to follow every step of my build. Its a possible all in but by no means are you forced to do that. You can transition into double expand -> mech pretty smoothly as long as you kill at least 4 probes or so. I do this build so much that I can tell when protoss knows that he's vulnerable to an all in, and takes the necc. precautions. They are in a more defensive mood so I will use that to my advantage by just pullling ahead in economy. Othertimes, the protoss hasn't seen this build before and doesn't realize the all in timing that he can just lose at. When I see that, I pull my scvs and just go for the kill. As for them keeping probes inside their main. A. You know that they are being defensive now, which means they may become quite aggressive later. B. You know you can't do as much damage, so don't lose any hellions or banshees unnecessarily, and maybe build 1 or 2 extra bunkers, or get cloak to scare him in the mid game so he doesn't hit you with an gateway-immortal timing. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On January 05 2013 03:09 framtidenskrig wrote: Have been doing this quite alot and ive also seen MKP using this a couple of times i think, its a really strong opening and i really recommend it to players who want to be more aggressive I agree, this build really helps terran players understand the concept of map control. Basically when a person has more map control, they are more likely to predict and adapt to what their opponent is about to do. With that being said, if one has map control, one's vulnerability is minimized, and a person should take more risks in such an instance. easy example: protoss sees a lot of hellions, and cloaked banshees, their gut instinct is to thwart your harass completely, IE be in a defensive posture. Terran player realizes this pattern, and double expands, or ninja expands, or goes double armory slightly earlier than he should. Another example: In MVP's TVT, he often skips marines in the early game in favour of an earlier command center when its 1/1/1 vs 1/1/1 and he knows what the opponent is doing. Another illustration of my point. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
Replays with MECH TRANSITIONS (double expand) Game 1: http://drop.sc/296679 + Show Spoiler + Vs 1g FE on Cloud kingdom. He does the fast 2 base blink build that's supposedly stomps mech players. I hold it off with a combination of frantic micro and him getting apprehensive because he can't lose the observer, so he thinks I have more defenses in my natural than whats actually there. This replay really shows the power of doing a double expand from a gas first opening. Even though I lose so many SCVS, I actually float over 1000 minerals during the bulk of the harass! And again, to any people who say mech is too harassable, just watch as I stabilize. He keeps trying to harass me, and I send my hellions right into his bases. I repeat this cycle and eventually weasel my way back into the game. He does a miscalculation (very common for people who don't face mech very often) and loses his entire army with me having 4 tanks left and some hellions. I deny his fourth, kill some more probes, then I'm able to finish the game. Insane game where both of us are at 200 APM for the whole game. Game 2: http://drop.sc/296678 + Show Spoiler + Vs 1g FE on Daybreak. He does the standard 3g into robo followup from an expand. I harass him with hellions and banshees. Also note that he kept a lot of his probes inside his main until he had enough stalkers. But I still do quite a bit of economic damage with this build, and I am able to get away with a double expand BECAUSE I saw how defensive he was getting. He was even keeping multiple obs with his units even though I didn't have cloak. I still trust my gut and don't reveal my expansion until I have a large enough army size + siege mode. He tries to feign an attack, but I simply run my hellions in from the third when my watchtower hellion sees his army moving out. That move solidified my win, I hold off various attacks and end the game with tank mode a-move lol. | ||
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