EPT[G] Hæssebust: ZvZ Baneling All-In (Or is it?) - Page 3
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TheCSerps
Australia19 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 24 2012 11:18 TheCSerps wrote: TargA top 4 Dreamhack Valencia. I think it's time to change this strategy to the proper name of TargA banes. Haha you're not the first to say so, but I believe the term "Hæssebust" refers to a style popularized by Norwegian players, one of which is TargA. I think it's more symbolic of Norwegian SC2 culture, not just one player's prowess. | ||
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 05 2012 23:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you? To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build. Haha no, it's a good question! You wouldn't drone this high if your opponent goes for a 4min speedling expand (14gas/14pool 20 Hatchery). Most of those all-ins hit around 5:30-6:00, and you'd need a spine at your expansion, Zerglings, and probably a third Queen to defend. The greedier version of this build assume your opponent has gone hatch first (Earliest timings after hatch first are approximately 6-6:30). The only earlier versions are things like 10-11pool/gas. Against these builds, you just have to scout no expansion and spam lings like crazy. Defend as much as possible with your queens/lings/drones in as narrow a spot as you can. Just have to make defensive use of your ramp, and cut into his Ling count as much as possible - your production will be better than his, just have to live past those first 2 waves. I hope this answers your question? | ||
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aLtNXZ
Australia36 Posts
On October 05 2012 23:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you? To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build. You play this build the same way you would play any defensive macro build until you add on the extra gases and start pumping lings. You get defensive banes, if hes attacking you; you respond the same way you would with any build. As long as you defend well it just resets the game with both of you slightly behind so your attack hits slightly later. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 06 2012 06:44 aLtNXZ wrote: You play this build the same way you would play any defensive macro build until you add on the extra gases and start pumping lings. You get defensive banes, if hes attacking you; you respond the same way you would with any build. As long as you defend well it just resets the game with both of you slightly behind so your attack hits slightly later. Yeah actually one of the stream videos covers the defensive banelings, you almost always build 2 on your ramp. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
Where do you find these tang?! | ||
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DarkZonk
22 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On October 07 2012 06:05 DarkZonk wrote: I think its quite hard to hold 14/14 Ling/Bling AllIn with this build, since your pool is very late? 15 hatch can hold 14/14 ling baneling all-in. As with every single build, you have to see your opponents expanion timing and react. In the case of a speedling expand, especially if the hatch goes down late or not at all, save energy on one or both of your queens, block your ramp, start a spinecrawler, and seriously consider going baneling nest before speed. I think MrLlama's thread has a video of this defense. This is true for basically every zvz build, so if tang never covered the specifics of this, it was implied. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 07 2012 06:05 DarkZonk wrote: I think its quite hard to hold 14/14 Ling/Bling AllIn with this build, since your pool is very late? No. The only time where you could possibly lose to a 14/14 ling/bling all in is if you open 15 pool 16 hatch 17 gas and go speed first (or skip the spine in your natural) is if you don't evacuate your natural and block the ramp with your queens + a transfuse. They can always be defended with spine/queen/line with minimal drone losses. By the time he has enough banes to 1-shot your spine, you'll have your own banes, and then he can't attack you or else he'll lose. There's a reason you never see ling/bling all ins in pro games, and I don't even face them anymore on ladder because they're so weak. I did die once to an 11/11 ling/bling bust because I wasn't ready;gotta get a really fast spine etc. But generally it's a bad strategy that only works against the greediest of builds. Edit: I got ninja'd by Oboeman, fortunately we said almost the exact same thing  | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
One guy skipped bane tech and just went pure roach so I just went pure speedling and won (after using banes on spines and roach clumps). One guy was going 2 base muta, saw me morph 20 banes, shit his pants and morphed 40 LOL. I just retreated and went double evo ling/infestor and won. IMO this isn't all-in, as long as you force a lot of gas out of your opponent (even if you don't do direct damage). I don't know the best transition out of this...probably roach/infestor because you'll have a ton of gas banked. Definitely best to grab your third + drone up behind it if you realize you won't win. | ||
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RustySpork
United Kingdom49 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote: thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. It DOES improve them because learning 1-2 all-in builds for each match-up is a massive factor towards success in Bo3/5/7 series. Being adaptable is not a bad thing. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote: thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. Don't be foolish. All-ins and aggressive play styles are part of SC2. You can be an ostrich and pretend they don't exist or you can execute them crisply and cleanly as a fun alternative to macro play. The beauty of SC is its infinite depth. Why would you want to limit yourself to only macro? This is coming from a (bad) masters zerg who rarely all-ins. I still love and respect the fact that I have to be wary of it. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote: thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 09 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks. I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that. The wonderful thing about starcraft is the diversity of builds. Sure, you can go 30 minute broodlord infestor each game, but people are going to have a shit ton of practice against that, and it's harder to do anything different in a macro game. Conversely, you could learn 15 different timing attacks and just fuck with people you play simply because they have minimal practice vs that style. We're supposed to be swarmy anyway. Hard to be swarmy with only 100 supply in attacking units versus 150 supply attack units of other races. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 13 2012 23:27 InfCereal wrote: I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that. Exactly, I never take anything away from macro styles, obviously it's a strong way to play, but it shouldn't be frowned upon to be aggressive or even all-in. | ||
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Sassback
United States718 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 16 2012 00:58 TangSC wrote: Exactly, I never take anything away from macro styles, obviously it's a strong way to play, but it shouldn't be frowned upon to be aggressive or even all-in. Considering one of the races is practically designed for it, it's surprising that it's frowned upon. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 16 2012 03:37 InfCereal wrote: Considering one of the races is practically designed for it, it's surprising that it's frowned upon. Do you mean Toss or Terran? | ||
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