Well, stalkers are weak and die easily to Spine crawlers, while zealots and DTs are more resilient to those attacks and has more damage-for-cost than a stalker ie. a warp in of zealots/DTs are much, much more cost effective than a warp in of stalkers.

It is actually less of a stupid question and more of an inquiry that opens up more possibilities for discussion

ThirdDegree

United States329 Posts

October 29 2012 15:40 GMT

#44

Zergs need to start doing this. Late game, you have resources and drones to burn, put up a few spines and maybe a spore near your spire/infestation pit. I have sniped these a lot for free with zealot drops. Mid game, I can see not wanting to, but it should be standard for late game zerg

Orek

1665 Posts

October 29 2012 17:15 GMT

#45

On October 29 2012 02:37 jnd wrote:
I don't know if you should include this here but the latest HotS patch changed things:
+ Show Spoiler +

Spine Crawler
This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers.
Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers.
The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004440896

Thank you for the reminder. I can't test it because I don't have a beta key, but it will probably change one thing.
+ Show Spoiler +

In this image, currently Hole2B is incomplete, but new HotS change will make it complete. Hole2A will stay incomplete. Without testing, nothing is for sure, but that's how I think just reading the patch note.

On October 29 2012 22:08 Bad_Habit wrote:
and if those mean protosses just warp in stalker?

sorry for my stupid question but i never reach t 2 :/

On October 30 2012 00:40 ThirdDegree wrote:
Zergs need to start doing this. Late game, you have resources and drones to burn, put up a few spines and maybe a spore near your spire/infestation pit. I have sniped these a lot for free with zealot drops. Mid game, I can see not wanting to, but it should be standard for late game zerg

This is how the metagame should shift:
1. Zerg players start to use this greater spire wall-in ->
2. Protoss players start to use 2 immortal drops to snipe the greater spire
+ Show Spoiler +

On August 13 2012 15:38 Whitewing wrote:
If zergs start doing this I'm gonna have to actually use speed immortal drops to kill that spire >_<.

->
3. Zerg players are forced to leave some lings at main/natural to deal with it becauses spines are useless vs immortals ->
4. Less army supply for BL/infestor slightly favors Protoss players than it does today ->
5. Protoss players start to think that late game PvZ is not as bad ->
6. Less immortal/sentry all-in ->
7. Profit(?)

Stalker is not the answer. Immortal is. Once BL/infestor army is established, immortals Protoss make mid-game vs roaches are basically useless. Suicide mission would be well worth it. Current metagame is way behind the perfect state I envision, so HotS will come out sooner than these shifts, unfortunately.

McTeazy

Canada297 Posts

October 29 2012 17:59 GMT

#46

I assume you've tested hole 5, but it doesn't make sense. A zergling tight wall is two building sharing a side of a square on a build grid (except for spines and spores as you mention).

are you absolutely sure you can get in that way?

Orek

1665 Posts

October 30 2012 10:35 GMT

#47

On October 30 2012 02:59 McTeazy wrote:
I assume you've tested hole 5, but it doesn't make sense. A zergling tight wall is two building sharing a side of a square on a build grid (except for spines and spores as you mention).

are you absolutely sure you can get in that way?

ABSOLUTELY
+ Show Spoiler +

I don't often fail in my researches. Glad someone noticed it, though.

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

October 30 2012 10:43 GMT

#48

Just to reiterate on the Immortal thing: they are the best reaction vs this not only because they are ranged and kill buildings ridicolously fast, but most importantly they have no uses in the lategame after the 3base defense/3base timing stage for the P.

This means a P has to trade them in some way vs infestor broodlord, and the greater spire is a prime target. Also, the warp prism allows P to micro vs guarding lings so that's kinda nice.

And i'm very, very afraid of the day this gets standard lol.

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

October 31 2012 01:44 GMT

#49

On October 30 2012 19:43 Teoita wrote:
Just to reiterate on the Immortal thing: they are the best reaction vs this not only because they are ranged and kill buildings ridicolously fast, but most importantly they have no uses in the lategame after the 3base defense/3base timing stage for the P.

This means a P has to trade them in some way vs infestor broodlord, and the greater spire is a prime target. Also, the warp prism allows P to micro vs guarding lings so that's kinda nice.

And i'm very, very afraid of the day this gets standard lol.

I've been doing these drops for a while and they're often ridiculously effective, zergs just often don't expect them at all. Get warp prism speed and you can out-run corrupters, and you can even warp in zealots to hold off or deal with lings in small amounts if they don't heavily commit to defending it. It's not unusual for me to kill off not only the greater spire but also the infestation pit or even the hive with this. If they seem particularly out of position you can even warp in a sentry or two and force them to stay out while you pump in zealots. The spines they might have do pretty much nothing with immortals in there. The best part is, as you said, you don't actually care about losing the immortals so you can afford to be a little more risky with them, and a lot of zergs just count on you not risking expensive units and play light on the defense.

Lasbike

France2888 Posts

November 02 2012 18:26 GMT

#50

Can someone explain me why pros zergs don't do this ?

Do they know something that we don't ?

Because it's seriously painful to see the best zergs out there (Stephano, Life, etc...) get their greater spire destroyed in every single ZvP late game.

Orek

1665 Posts

November 03 2012 15:50 GMT

#51

On November 03 2012 03:26 Lasbike wrote:
Can someone explain me why pros zergs don't do this ?

Do they know something that we don't ?

Because it's seriously painful to see the best zergs out there (Stephano, Life, etc...) get their greater spire destroyed in every single ZvP late game.

Reasons I can think of:
1. They simply don't know. A 15000 viewer thread is not impactful enough.
2. Placing structures randomly is easier, so they are lazy so to say.
3. They think that randomizing structure placements is more important, which I disagree.

When I wrote the article in August, I thought that it would become the standard soon, but so far, I haven't seen a single pro who does this. It is disappointing that this wall-in which has almost no disadvantage hasn't become the standard play yet.

Lasbike

France2888 Posts

November 04 2012 15:57 GMT

#52

Exactly my thoughts.

Anyway, at least, you saved my great spire life in all of my ZvP (I'm top25 master EU), and I thank you for it.

Dray

1 Post

November 19 2012 09:45 GMT

#53

Very great guide! I was also wondering what your graphics settings were they look like low low but they seem to have some look to it?

Sweetfrost

Sweden211 Posts

November 19 2012 10:26 GMT

#54

I really admire you for taking your time to write a long strategic article about this Orek. Thanks for helping out, I think it was a very intressting and sim city tactic.

Well written!