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[H][D] Trying to learn Zerg the correct way.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Streygo
Profile Joined February 2011
Belgium19 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:58:14
August 07 2012 11:06 GMT
#1
Hello everyone.

First of all, I want all of you to know that I’m a Silver league Zerg player. I’m fully aware that my macro is not what it should be. I am also aware that I am struggling with mechanics. I frequently loose track of the gametime. As a result, my scouting is more often then not late (I miss scouting timings to spot timing attacks / timings the opponent has to commit on a tech route).

Before people tell me I need to watch other forum threads and race basics, I have read them all several times. I tried hard to put to practice what those fine players tried to convey, but a lot still feels vague to me. I am trying to analyze myself as unbiased as possible. I think I am correct, but don’t take my word for it.

With that out of the way, I recently watched the newbie Tuesday on Zerg leak finding. I followed Day[9]’s advice and focused on:

1. If you don’t need units, make drones.

2. Spend money on upgrades that might be useful while droning. (scout to see what you need)

3. Focus on winning while on Hive tech.

Since I have been doing this, I never had a convincing win. I have been doing a lot worse in fact. I’m not too fussed about it since everyone is telling me that I’m not reactive enough and this is how it should be done. So I rather break the bad habits.
Watching the replays made me think what the problems might be. These are my conclusions.
1. I don’t know Terran and Protoss timings. I get the feeling in Silver league, people just do whatever they want. Can I beat randomness and non-standard play with standard play?
When exactly do these races have scary timing attacks that I need to be aware of?

2. I don’t know my own “timings”.
How can I figure out when to add more gas? Is there a rule of thumb?
Let us say that I go lair first. And I want infestors while having a roach warren, double evo upgrades, researching roach speed and neural parasite. Day[9] said you need 5 geysers for that. How did he come to that conclusion? Does that apply to other gas-requiring units?

3. If I feel I am safe to expand, I already should of have put it down.
I think the reason is that I oversaturate as a preparation for maynarding the third. Should I make drones for a third prior to taking the third?
The reason for asking is if I expand, and didn’t make the drones, I need to spend my money/larvae on something. I don’t want army. If I don’t spend, the money goes trough the roof. What do I do?

4. I try not to miss injects. I fail at this critical part more often then not. Is a Zerg that plays reactive required to bank larvae? Because if I drone like I should be, I never have enough larvae to produce the size of army I need when I see the opponent move out.
I understand that relates to scouting and knowing when to stop droning. But that is exactly the problem. When do you stop droning? Is it when the opponents army reaches a certain supply?
I don’t know when to stop because they can either push out now, or push out when maxed. How do I read the opponent is such a scenario?

I’m not sure if I can be helped without supplying replays. I am at work so I can’t do that right now. But it would be nice if I could get some hypothetical answers. I will provide some replays tonight. Perhaps some of before I started to apply Day[9]’s advice and after? Suggestions are very welcome.
Thank you for the help, and I’m looking forward to your feedback.

**Edit**
Example replay prior to the Day[9] way.

http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-26337-0-adam_p_-vs-streygo_z.html

Day[9] way.

http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-26338-0-enceladus_t_-vs-streygo_z.html
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-26339-0-voult_t_-vs-streygo_z.html
Catatafish
Profile Joined April 2012
75 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 11:52:22
August 07 2012 11:50 GMT
#2
You should post a replay to get more specific advice.

1. Yes, you can easily beat anything in silver league by just macroing better and playing standard. You should play with the mindset that the reason you are losing is that your macro is not good enough. If you build enough units, you should more or less cruise to diamond league without thinking too much about strategy. That said, you could check out pro replays/vods/streams to get an idea what strong timings the other races have. Otherwise it just comes with practice. Just play a lot and watch vods and read guides now and then and eventually you will get a handle on timings. Also, while their advice might be somewhat too high level for a silver league player, I really recommend the 'Intimate ZvX with Stoic' vods (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304157). I consider them the main reason I advanced from diamond to master league. Also when you watch games look specifically for the details such as when they build their overlords, how many drones they make at specific times etc. Watching pro games shouldn't be as passive as watching TV, you have to really pay attention to a lot of the small details the casters won't mention to really learn from it.

2. More often than not a good idea is to take your gasses when you can afford not having the drones on minerals. So when you have 60 drones on three bases vs. protoss for instance, you need 3 x 16 drones on minerals for optimal saturation = 48 drones, which means you can have 12 drones on gas i.e. four gasses. If you want to go into higher tech you should take the 5th and 6th gasses and then drone so you still have optimal saturation.

3. If you can't spend your money you need either an expansion or a macro hatchery. Whether you drone up the expansion before hand or not depends on whether you feel safe to get drones or you need units. For instance in ZvZ it is not uncommon that your opponent might get a third and then build nothing but units. In that case if you get your own third and drone up completely, you will die to his attack. Good scouting and experience will tell you whether you can drone or not. Basically you want to get up to 65-80 drones as fast as possible depending on the match up (again, read match-up specific guides and watch pro games to figure this out more specifically), and only build units when the opponent forces you to (if you play a reactive, defensive zerg style, that is, which I would say is probably the best way to learn the game.)

4. As a silver level player, I will almost guarantee you that the biggest problem with your gameplay is your injects, so really try to focus on that aspect, even though it's very difficult. Basically that just comes with experience as well, but it is essential to know just how bad you are at injecting compared to for instance a master level player. If you produce a round of units and feel you don't have enough larva, make an expansion or a macro hatch. To the second part of your question, there aren't very many situations where you should hold off on building things, just build either drones or units as much as possible depending on whether you feel safe or not. If you have no idea but are about to scout your opponent, you can hold off for a little while to make the correct decision, but mainly you should keep in mind that you are simply not building enough stuff at all, and that is the main problem with your gameplay.


Also, I highly recommend watching streamers who commentate on their play. Ret and Sheth for instance do this sometimes and it can help immensely.

Hope it helps, but post a replay for more specific advice, as some of the general questions are difficult to answer otherwise. And GL HF
eg9
Profile Joined February 2011
Norway43 Posts
August 07 2012 11:58 GMT
#3
I can give some advice on droning at least.

In ZvP and ZvT you can pretty much always drone up your nat without any units(given that your opponent has taken hos natural). When taking your third vs terran you should always build some army at least. How i like to do it is drone up on 2bases and then make masd ling while taking my third to deflect hellions/marines and maybe even do damage if my opponent is too greedy.

Drone timings in ZvP is complex and i reslly dont want to get into that right now but generally; make army when you are ahead in eco. 1 or maybe even 1/2 base up. Also, if he is playing very defencive you can drone and expand
clever_us
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States329 Posts
August 07 2012 12:08 GMT
#4
Scouting is actually a lot more important in the lower leagues than people give it credit for! Try to always know how many bases he is on. A lot of my lower-league buddies simply assume that their opponent has taken their natural, or assume later on that they have taken their third. THE EASIEST WAY TO KNOW WHETHER YOUR OPPONENT IS ALL-INNING OR NOT IS TO KEEP TRACK OF HOW MANY BASES HE IS ON.

What this means is that you should ALWAYS have a ling on his natural and, once he takes that, ALWAYS have a ling on his third. This allows you to work out the following timings:

1. In general, if he doesn't take his natural by 5 minutes, he is all inning
2. In general, if he does not take his third by 9 minutes, he is all inning

If you figure out those two facts, it simplifies getting to the late game a TON. Basically this means your strategy will be "drone hard till 5:00, try to figure out what he's doing, if he doesn't have a base make a ton of units and either crush his all in or contest his expansion (if he tries to expand to his natural at the seven or eight minute mark you can simply have way too much stuff off two bases by that point for him to ever manage it)." Alternatively, if he takes his natural early, your strategy becomes "take a third base and drone hard until 8 minutes, then figure out what he's doing and make a bunch of units if necessary"
glhf <3
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
August 07 2012 12:26 GMT
#5
Scouting is way easier if you just find out in what your opponent is investing. He can either invest in Economy (Worker, Expandtions), Army(Production Buildings, Units) or Tech(Upgrades, Techbuildings). You don´t have to scout the exact build order from your opponent. In general if your opponent is taking 2 Gas on all his bases he is teching. If he builds an expandtion he is ecoing. If he builds production buildings he invest´s in army. Use your overlords to scout for the gas timings at every of his bases. Use your zerglings to see whether your opponent takes an expandtion on the map and have your creep spreaded out to see whether your opponent pushes his army over the map. If you see your opponent is building an expandtion or having 2 gas on each base a powerfull push right now is impossible. So you should build up your own economy and tech for the stronger push comming afterwards.
Grubbegrabbn
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden174 Posts
August 07 2012 13:08 GMT
#6
I mess around in the lower leagues myself - I suggest you check out FilterSC's youtube zerg videos. They help alot - especially vs Protoss. Here is the Zerg guide part 1

A fun thing to mix with is 7 pooling vs Protoss (link here). It works rather well in lower leagues since most Protoss at this level (silver to gold) are clueless as to how to respond and most of them go for a FFE since they see all pro players do it. This improves your multitasking skills (keep lings alive and do as much damage as possible while following the build order).
S_treaks
Profile Joined August 2007
United States27 Posts
August 07 2012 13:12 GMT
#7
I know how you feel, my friend. I was promoted to gold league in the middle of last season, and I have faced a similar problem.

My overall advice after reading your post, is to keep it simple. Pick a basic strategy for each matchup and focus on that while working on mechanics (injects, scouting, spending money, etc). The "right way" to play Zerg is based on strong mechanics, regardless of your preferred play style. To get more specific, I have some responses/opinions regarding your conclusions.

On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:
1. I don’t know Terran and Protoss timings. I get the feeling in Silver league, people just do whatever they want. Can I beat randomness and non-standard play with standard play?
When exactly do these races have scary timing attacks that I need to be aware of?

In silver league, "timings" don't matter. In fact, they don't really exist. Timings are based on a perfectly executed strategy. Silver players can't execute strategies perfectly; that's why they're in silver league. General scouting advice, though:
-if you don't see an expansion/CC in his main, stop making drones and start making units. At least until you get a better idea what's happening in his base. If you see FFE, make sure he makes a nexus instead of faking you out. You should be able to get an overlord in there
-If your opponent is unusually defensive (especially with a lot of cannons/spines/bunkers), he's probably trying something fishy. In my experience, it's usually air play, but sometimes DT rush. Build a spore at each base and try to sacrifice an overlord to determine exactly what you're up against.

Apollo did a "Working up from bronze league" series on youtube that I found very useful for learning to scout and play smart. The first video is here:


On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:
2. I don’t know my own “timings”.
How can I figure out when to add more gas? Is there a rule of thumb?
Let us say that I go lair first. And I want infestors while having a roach warren, double evo upgrades, researching roach speed and neural parasite. Day[9] said you need 5 geysers for that. How did he come to that conclusion? Does that apply to other gas-requiring units?

This is where it would be helpful to have one specific build to focus on. The amount of gas you take depends on what you want to do with it. If you copy a good build, someone has already figured out how many gasses you need and when you need to take them in order to execute that particular build. Unfortunately, there is no "rule of thumb" for gas timings. If there is, I've not found it.

On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:
3. If I feel I am safe to expand, I already should of have put it down.
I think the reason is that I oversaturate as a preparation for maynarding the third. Should I make drones for a third prior to taking the third?
The reason for asking is if I expand, and didn’t make the drones, I need to spend my money/larvae on something. I don’t want army. If I don’t spend, the money goes trough the roof. What do I do?

First of all, no, you never need to make drones prior to taking the third. The greatest advantage zerg has is the ability to produce a shitload of units all at once. Terran and Protoss oversaturate their natural so that they can saturate their third when it's up. As Zerg, we can start 14 or so drones right before the 3rd hatch is finished and immediately have a decently saturated base.

Second, why don't you want an army? How do you expect to win a war game without an army?
I know what you're saying, Day[9]'s philosophy is to make drones until you need units, and he's right. But the reasoning behind that philosophy is to quickly build up an economy. If you don't spend the money, what have you accomplished with that economy?

To clarify, if your money is always going through the roof when you take a third, adjust your build/strategy. Either take your third earlier (risky) or build up some army so that you can defend your third.

On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:
4. I try not to miss injects. I fail at this critical part more often then not. Is a Zerg that plays reactive required to bank larvae? Because if I drone like I should be, I never have enough larvae to produce the size of army I need when I see the opponent move out.
I understand that relates to scouting and knowing when to stop droning. But that is exactly the problem. When do you stop droning? Is it when the opponents army reaches a certain supply?
I don’t know when to stop because they can either push out now, or push out when maxed. How do I read the opponent is such a scenario?

If you're hitting all your injects perfectly, you should not have to bank larvae. Sure, there will be times when your opponent moves out right after you make a round of drones, but that's a necessary risk we pretty much have to take.

When to stop droning depends on your build, really. What is your gameplan? Are you going for maxed army then attack? Are you going for some 2-base play while taking a third? For a while, I was taking the "reactive race" philosophy too far. At some point I realized that if I didn't have a good plan, I would just drone until my opponent attacked, then realize I had nothing but drones to defend. This is when I started the 2-base play into expand approach and started winning a few games.

I'm not sure I was able to organize those thoughts very well, but I just wanted to get them out there while I had them. Also, I recommend filter's "Bronze to Masters" series on youtube as well:

His build isn't exactly a great strategy, but it's helped me to get better at macro. Also, you'd be surprised how many games you can win by brute force.

Hope this helps!
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 13:46:42
August 07 2012 13:44 GMT
#8
On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:
1. I don’t know Terran and Protoss timings. I get the feeling in Silver league, people just do whatever they want. Can I beat randomness and non-standard play with standard play?
When exactly do these races have scary timing attacks that I need to be aware of?


One of the old BW commentators (cholera or diggity, I think it was cholera) said that the best response to nonstandard play is standard play. Since zerg is more reactive, the other races can and a lot of times will set the pace of the game.

Scary timing attacks happen at all periods of the game. The easiest to predict is protoss, followed by terran, and then zerg, but a lot of these timings won't be exact. In silver league you're more likely to see some really crazy crap, or things that LOOK like standard play, but are terribly timed.

Anyway, instead of learning all the timings before a game, play 20-30 and write them down. Glaze over the replay, see how many gas and what kind of tech, when they moved out to attack, and when you could have scouted to figure it out.

2. I don’t know my own “timings”.
How can I figure out when to add more gas? Is there a rule of thumb?
Let us say that I go lair first. And I want infestors while having a roach warren, double evo upgrades, researching roach speed and neural parasite. Day[9] said you need 5 geysers for that. How did he come to that conclusion? Does that apply to other gas-requiring units?


You can get a roach warren, double evo upgrades, roach speed, and neural from 1 geyser, it's just going to take a while.

You seem to like Day[9], so head on over to the archive and watch daily #285. It's about stealing a build order.

Next, download a bunch of pro replays and find a style of play that you like. Day[9]'s also got a number of dailies based on a race's strategy, so that works too.

Finally, follow his methodology and steal the build.

To answer your question, finding out gas timings is an iterative process where you try different timings and find an optimization. Like, you take 3 gasses and if you have a ton of leftover gas a few minutes later than take two the next time. As a silver player you should NOT be worrying about this. Instead, steal a build and copy its timings. A build order is merely an optimization, so pay attention to how everything flows in the pro replay and how they usually have JUST enough money for the desired tech and units.

In general, strategies like BL/Infestor need 8-10 geysers to run at optimal speed. 4 geysers on two base will give you enough for mutas, infestors, or max roach. 1 geyser for a strong roach/ling all-in and 3 geysers for a delayed zvz roach all-in. The more you play, the more you will see things like this. Until then, stick to drones, overlods, and injects.

3. If I feel I am safe to expand, I already should of have put it down.
I think the reason is that I oversaturate as a preparation for maynarding the third. Should I make drones for a third prior to taking the third?
The reason for asking is if I expand, and didn’t make the drones, I need to spend my money/larvae on something. I don’t want army. If I don’t spend, the money goes trough the roof. What do I do?


Usually, when you get 300 extra minerals despite spending everything, you put down a macro hatch. If you stole a build like I recommended in the last question, then you know when, exactly, that should be. Missing injects will lead to less larva and an extra amount of cash.

4. I try not to miss injects. I fail at this critical part more often then not. Is a Zerg that plays reactive required to bank larvae? Because if I drone like I should be, I never have enough larvae to produce the size of army I need when I see the opponent move out.
I understand that relates to scouting and knowing when to stop droning. But that is exactly the problem. When do you stop droning? Is it when the opponents army reaches a certain supply?
I don’t know when to stop because they can either push out now, or push out when maxed. How do I read the opponent is such a scenario?


To quote MrBitter when he was streaming his coaching sessions: "there is nothing wrong with losing a game because you made a round of drones". Ok, so maybe that's not the exact quote, but losses like this happen ALL the time at all different levels. Watch the replay, see when you could have scouted it, and try to do better next time.

I've played enough games that I'll know an all-in given scouting information and will stop making drones. Before I learned these timings I would become surprised more often than not.

Here's are some silver-level scouting tips:

1). Drone scout; give it a bunch of waypoints and learn if there is a fast expo (any race), opening gas (any race, but most useful for terran), or an empty base (toss and terran proxy). For the most part, ignore the drone in real time and check the path when waiting for larva.

2). Put your first overlord safely behind your opponent's natural gasses. If a 4 player map, try your best to deduce the right location. Rally your second overlord near their main. If you don't know what is going on, sacrifice one of your overlords.

3). Lings at the xel-naga towers. If they die replace them at earliest convenience.

One last thing: it's easy to see zerg's success in major tournaments and think "wow, that looked so easy!". It's really not. Zerg is a very unforgiving race where a relatively minor mistake may cost you the game. Playing zerg the way Day[9] recommends, to hive tech every game, means that you will see an innumerable amount of cheese, all-ins, and timing attacks. You will lose A LOT! When you're having troubles, post a replay to the zerg help me thread. Practice your mechanics; even if you made a round of drones and lost, if your queens have low energy it's still a victory! Keep practicing your build and learning the appropriate deviations in the face of random attacks. Before too long you will hold something off, have a huge drone lead, and totally crush your opponent with superior macro.

Edit: It's been posted twice now, but Filter's zerg videos MAY be useful. You won't have to get a different build order for each matchup, but that means you'll have to learn a new build order when promoted. It's a good line of videos for practicing mechanics, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything past that.
Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
August 07 2012 14:16 GMT
#9
Please post some replays as well to make it easier for us to point out examples in your games.

Generally tho, you can always play just standard without much scouting or deviation in lower leagues. I played "win at hive, only standard until that point" up until master without really knowing any specific timings or similar.

However, in silver league I wouldn't advise doing that. Not meaning to insult you, but if you're in silver league you have huge problems with general gameplay, hitting injects etc. I would suggest practising a good 1base or 2base opener, and just hit all injects while making roaches/lings that you move around, trying to kill your opponent. Once you have good enough mechanics to be able to hit injects and keep your money/larva down on 1/2 base you'll be in gold/platinum, and then you can start trying to play 4-5 base and win at hive.

There's really no point in trying to get to 4 bases and hive if you can't even macro properly at 1/2base (which I assure you that you can't do if you're in silver league).
hundred thousand krouner
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12380 Posts
August 07 2012 14:41 GMT
#10
for point 3:
I had this problem before.
As you improve, you will start to know when is safer to place your third and thus not having the "over saturated" problem because you want to spent.

In my opinion (diamond), if for whatever reason you are kind of feeling uneasy to take a third or the map just don't let you take a third that easily, then I normally just drop macro hatch, tech up, oversaturate a little bit and then scout and get more army to break rocks, check vision etc.
If he is playing too greedy, then I could just drop a third and go for a tri-hatch speedling baneling all-in.
If not, then at least I have units to do run-bys and already have drones over at the 3rd.

The reason is that if you make units just because you don't know if it is safe to get a 3rd.
Then assuming if he is actually hardcore turtling with a third already up, you are quite behind economically and would die very easily to a strong timing push.
As the game progresses, it is harder to produce any drones at all, that's why, imo, it is ok to oversaturate a little bit.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Ahht
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany10 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 14:45:35
August 07 2012 14:43 GMT
#11
Hi,

I would recommend filter's guide for the beginning, too.
Perhaps you die to some early pressure. But its amazing to see, how often you just don't care about what your opponent is doing, But steamroll him with mass roach. This got me into plat. This is where I have to start thinking about a strategy, I guess.

But its much easier now to remember injects, don't forget to take gas the time you wanted and not beeing supply blocked so much.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 07 2012 16:18 GMT
#12
Hello and welcome to TL! This generally doesn't fall into either [H] or [D] categories and general how do I improve questions should be asked in the Zerg Help Me Thread. But you put a lot of work into this topic, so no biggie this time. Have fun.
Moderator
Adrenal6land
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States46 Posts
August 07 2012 16:49 GMT
#13
A lot of good advice here, please put up a replay when you have the time so we can see if your injects are horrible or not
in silver you shouldnt need perfect injects but its good to start working on that right away. for now my advice is:

keep it simple if you have enough drones for your basses, in silver its ok to make a bunch of units AFTER fully saturating your basses. if your really bad with timings, its ok to saturate 2 basses, and make spines and units. then start thinking about your third. (also, of course sometimes you get all inned or 6 pooled and you just need units right away, but as soon as you defend, back to fully saturating your basses.)

scouting. if he has 1 bass, try to survive with 2. if he takes 2 basses. try to have 3. if he has 3 try to have 4. i think its good to start trying to scout and find out what exactly is his composition but its ok to just keep it simple. does he have another bass? if not, there should be an attack coming. if neither... he is not as good as you

Wanted to comment on day9 saying you should try to win with late game armies like brood lord infestor. This does not mean you should avoid winning with ling roach off of 2 bass. If he is on 1 bass and you have 2 basses the whole game, its ok to max out on ling roach THEN start teching or trying to take another bass. of course its better to get used to micro with a late game army but be careful not to try to go straight for brood loards its very hard to understand master level transitions and timings. Its perfectly ok to max on low tier units, and then make a spire and infestation pit, hive, greater spire, etc. etc. as the game progresses. That is what he means by you need x number of gasses. if you are on 1 bass you shouldnt go for greater spire if you are facing an all in and your on 2 bass, make units. the longer you survive and the more basses you take, the more likely you are to win, and of course that goes hand in hand with being more likely to get up to that high gas count and that crazy broodloard, infestor, curropter, ultralisk army.

gluck
Streygo
Profile Joined February 2011
Belgium19 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 17:09:28
August 07 2012 17:08 GMT
#14
Hello again.

First of all, thank you very much for the good advice! It is very apreciated!

I've uploaded 3 replays and posted the links. Macro and injects, need I say more? Offcourse all of you are right that macro should make me win all the games. I was curious though on the details why zerg players do what they do.
If I can break down all the info in small chunks, with an explenation why it has to be that way, it tends to stick in my head.

Another detail, I recently start to use SC2gears. And before it stopped working for some reason, my injects where averaging around 30 seconds. I get the feeling it improved since the patch, but I don't have the numbers at hand.

@NrGmonk, thank you for the heads up. I'll keep it in mind! Sorry for the inconvenience.
Xelyxiz
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom16 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 17:10:58
August 07 2012 17:09 GMT
#15
Personally I feel that by always spending your money (be it on drones by default, and units when needed), hitting your injects and using your larva --> it is easier to understand when and why you throw down structures within a build (e.g. timings for upgrades, making structures, units perhaps)

Take a ZvT opening for example: If you open hatch first, then pool, by the time your pool finishes you always have money for 2 queens and a ling or two if you feel like it. Continue droning and keeping money low and by the time the first round of queens are done, you have exactly enough for 2 more (unless you are getting 2 raxed). When you are getting saturated on both mineral lines you can throw down 2-3 geysers and a warren/bane nest for added protection, then you have enough for some more queens or take a quick-ish third, depending on what you saw with those lings and an overlord. You take ling speed and pick up some roaches to safely take a third, and then you have money for double upgrades. Everything really just falls into place.

Basically you start understanding where everything falls into the build as the macro gets tighter, and you can make better decision when pressure comes, instead of worrying about making that X structure at Y time.
repulsive
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada27 Posts
August 07 2012 20:50 GMT
#16
if your macro slips a lot just throw down a macro hatch anytime you see you're above 500 minerals and you have an extra queen or one of your queen hits 25 energy.
Streygo
Profile Joined February 2011
Belgium19 Posts
August 07 2012 21:16 GMT
#17
Hello yet again.

I followed the advice, watched Filter's movie and practiced on a medium AI. The focus whas entirely on macro.
+ Show Spoiler +
In a nutshell:
14pool
15 hatch
6 minute 4x gas
7 minute Roach warren and double evo.
At 6 minutes I have 36 drones and 2 producing
At 8 minutes I have 49 drones and 6 producing
At 13:50 minutes I max out on 1/1 roaches (2/2 done by the time I get to the AI's base)


Against an AI everything goes smoothly. I have no problems at all.
Against a player it doesnt go well really. I have to take into account he is in Diamond league starting to face Master league players. But I had hoped that I would at leaste have a decent shot of winning taking all your advice in to account. I would like to have your toughts of this replay.

http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-26351-0-deskana_z_-vs-streygo_z.html

Again, thank you so much for taking the time analyzing my games.
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
August 07 2012 22:40 GMT
#18
Ok TIp #1: Read all of the recommended strategy guides in the forum here. Just click on the zerg tab, and there are guides for each matchup that go quite in depth.

I would work on macro, and use standard builds, but perhaps make a couple of concessions for your league/level.

I think it is ok to do a couple things to be extra safe to take into account the greater volatility in your league, as well as your level of knowledge for scouting.

For example, when your natural is up, put a spine down in all matchups.

When your natural is saturated, make a big round or 2 of units in all matchups before droning your third. (I would still put the third down at standard times though).

So essentially, work on your injects, spend all of your money, but there really is no need to push the bounds of greediness in the lower levels. If you saturate 2 bases efficiently, hit injects, and make units while keeping your money low, you should do quite well. Get your third up and your drone count up from 50 to 70+ if you find you cannot be aggressive for some reason, or you KNOW that you do not need an army in the very near future.
Crugio
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Australia45 Posts
August 08 2012 02:39 GMT
#19
On August 07 2012 20:06 Streygo wrote:

1. If you don’t need units, make drones.

2. Spend money on upgrades that might be useful while droning. (scout to see what you need)

3. Focus on winning while on Hive tech.


I think that your point 2 is incorrect. Day9's Point 2 was "Rely on larve cheap units to defend". I.e. queens, infestors/spines, roaches, blings. Lings as last resort to defend.

Salient point Day9 was making is: the correct way to lose as zerg is to make too many drones. You can then review your loss, and gain knowledge of the timing of that attack, check how and when you could have scouted it, and how many units you needed to defend against it.

When do you stop droning? Is it when the opponents army reaches a certain supply?
Start easy:
Easy scouting I found that helped in lower leagues is to count bases (more accurately saturations). This is a principle Sheth explored in Zerg Mineral Saturation. Principle is that if you have gone 3 base saturation vs a 1 base, then there is a time when their army >>> then yours = squashed zergy. You should probably have stopped droning.

Step up in your game knowledge:
Then you can increase scoutings at key times (overlord saccing) vs 2base. Counting gases, composition of units etc. Day9 loves referring to comparative timings. i.e. in your mind you cross out possibility for the next x minutes. With this level of knowledge comes the timing for your defensive buildings (e.g. roach warren), progressing your tech/upgrades. The body in information and timing possibilities out there is huge and changing all the time.

"Let the loses come to you" as your means on learning. Starting with impecable economy macro and overdroning is a very good way to learn from losses.
I'm in a world of hurt!
AgentW
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States7725 Posts
August 08 2012 03:35 GMT
#20
I will start off by saying that I'm also a silver leaguer, but a Terran, so here's my perspective on silver league and how you react to certain oddities, especially because I think some posters have fallen out of touch with what it's like in terms of how bizzare lower level of play can be.

Playing standard, I have found, and macroing up is a very, very, good idea and will win you at least 50% of your games in silver if done better than competently. But, since this is silver league, you have people who do strange, inexplicably cheesy all-ins that often times don't makes sense and occasionally are very strong. Because this isn't a higher level of play, people all-in a ton more, and because of that you have to play safe.

I believe that this goes hand in hand with macroing well. If you macro well and play safe, you should be able to win most games, because you're going to have such a good lead if you can deflect whatever your opponent throws at you (especially invisible stuff, because lower level players love that stuff). As an example, I throw down a turret at my natural ramp/entrance if I feel DTs are a possibility based on my scouting information. As a Zerg, I imagine this would correspond to getting an Overseer immediately after completing lair. Similarly, against a one basing Terran with two gas, throwing down a spore or two near mineral lines would be wise in order to deflect (cloaked) banshee harass.

Since I usually plan on playing a long, macro game, going to a good max/upgrade timing and out producing my opponent, I have no plans to attack and this perceived waste in minerals merely delays my push, as I'm not looking to hit some two base all-in timing. My intent is to "win at (Terran) hive" (200 supply mech/biotank depending, but that's irrelevant), but to do so, I must be alive at "hive."

The above covers the "competent" all-ins and cheeses. There's also the stupid ones, like mass cloacked banshee, mass infestor, etc. One thing that I would recommend is to tweak your play to defeat his, do not change it. Playing standard is the strongest thing you can do (there's a reason it's standard), and changing it drastically both weakens it and takes you out of your comfort zone, so you're more likely to crumble. Slightly over/underproducing units into your composition is what I'm trying to get at here. For example (it's probably bad but I'm trying to use a Zerg one), if your opponent goes MASS muta in ZvZ, make some infestors, fungal him, and 1A him with the roaches you have. These types of people are the ones you'd much rather play against, because when you see your opponent goes a certain weird strategy, you just play your game and kill him.

I think what I'm trying to get at most here, is your offensive timings aren't as important (opponent cheese/all-in are), because we're silver leaguers, and we should be learning how to macro by staying alive, in order to get better, and eventually develop the control, builds and timings to do serious damage.

TL;DR
-Learn how to defend against all-ins/cheese because we silver leagues love them.
-If the opponent does something weird, just play your game and kill him.
-Macro --> Build superarmy --> Resupply until he dies to your superior macro.

gg and gl
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
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