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What's up everyone, Kryptonite here, looking to help all the nubbies out there (though this will be helpful for all skill levels) who are determined on improving but just can't find the best way to go about it.
Just a brief introduction of myself, I am a High Masters Zerg player going by the ID fLcKrypt, (http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/299590/fLcKrypt) playing for the fearsome North American team, Team Fallacy (http://www.teamfallacy.com/). I would characterize my playstyle as stylistic macro-oriented play. I do not always subscribe to the “current trends”, whether it be macro openers or unit compositions that most people use. For instance, I open 11pool before Overlord vs Protoss and against Terran, I focus heavily on Infestors into the late game while upgrading Missile Attack throughout the game to abuse Infested Terrans. I think that it is not only important to approach the game in different ways to get a better understanding, but it also allows you to be playing from a position you are comfortable whereas you opponent is not.
I believe that one of the main reasons we don't see as much innovative play as we should, (though there is plenty, don't get me wrong) is that it is difficult to test new build orders and strategies properly. Most people who play the game are teamless and have very few people they can “test” strategies against in a methodical manner. This results in people having to rely on the randomness of the ladder to select their opponents where it might take 10 games (sometimes even longer) until you finally get to the situation where you would be able to test your idea. And THEN, when you do finally get to that position, you get supply blocked and lose the game. And then of course there will be the times where you have this AWESOME idea against Protoss on Entombed Valley, and you are just waiting to queue up against that poor Protoss fool and then when you finally do, you go down to build your Hatchery, there are 3 Pylons greeting you at the bottom of your ramp. It can be quite frustrating, I know. So let me present to you the better and less stressful way of practicing and improving your play: playing vs the AI.
Yes, that's right. Just like when you played Starcraft for the first time and the only opponent you could play without embarrassing yourself was the computer. The only difference is that, we're not actually playing vs the AI, we are just using the AI as a dummy to test/practice your build.
Now I know that I am not the first person to load up a custom game vs the AI to test a build or to warm up (I even see pros with custom game vs the AI in their match history), but I can tell you that 99% of people are doing it all wrong. Let me just run you through how I used to practice my builds:
Log onto Battle.net, click on Multiplayer, create a custom game, choose a “very easy” computer and hit 'start'. I then would proceed to practice my build, occasionally pausing it so I can think through my strategy (keep in mind we only have THREE of these so use them wisely!). Everything will be going smoothly, and then bam, supply block at 44 supply. I'd release a breath of frustration, exit the game and restart again....going along, hitting my injects, keeping a nice even mining saturation, then I look at my gas in my main and there are 2 Drones on it...!!!!! Aright, so maybe you're a macro fiend, you never have more than 50 energy on your Orbital, you can spread creep with your eyes closed, whatever it is, you'd give DRG a run for his minerals. You're going along with your build, and about 8 minutes in, you realize you'd actually rather get another Command Center instead of those extra Barracks...load another game and do it again. Now what I'm trying to get at is that when you practice vs the computer with this method, there's a lot of unnecessary repetition. Now the solution to this is actually pretty simple: Game Saving.
Now I hope I just blew your mind as when I thought of this, it felt like an atomic bomb went off in my head. Now the reason I believe that most people haven't thought of this is because you actually can't save a game when playing a multiplayer game vs an AI. This can only be achieved if you are doing it through Single Player.
+ Show Spoiler +
*SIDE NOTE *: When you play in Single Player mode you get infinite pauses!
*SIDE NOTE* : Make sure you are playing under the 'Fastest' game speed, the default in Single Player is 'Fast'. If you already started the game, you can always change it by going to 'Options'->'Gameplay'->'Game Speed'
+ Show Spoiler +
Now the basic idea (if you don't already get what I'm saying) is that when you are practicing a build, you save the game at different points. You can then load up into any point of the build (without having to do the redundant beginning steps) and then play from there. I can come up with endless useful ways to use this, but just to list a few:
- If you want to make very minor changes to a build and are curious how it would effect it without having to spend 10 minutes just getting to that point.
- You run into a timing attack on the ladder that hits @11 minutes. Load up your standard macro-opener @7 minutes and then try and find the best way to get the composition you need.
- You want to practice executing a mid-late game tactic while still keeping up with your macro : Load up your build @12 minutes and MMA your way to victory.
Now I would suggest coming up with some method of organizing and labeling your saved games. This is my organization scheme:
“Matchup Folders” - A folder for each matchup:
- ZvZ
- ZvT
- ZvP
+ Show Spoiler +
“Build Folders” - In each folder I will have more folders labeled with builds,
- Drop Contain
- DRG 3 Base
- 3 Base 11p Gas
+ Show Spoiler +
Inside those folders are the saved games themselves. I usually like to begin each saved game with a time label as well as the last action completed:
- @123 Pool goes down
- @406 Drone Heading to 3rd
- @619 3rd Finishes
+ Show Spoiler +
“Branch Folders” - Located inside the “Build Folders”, I'll have “Branch Folders” for when my strategy might branch off depending on the situation:
- @630 Scout 2 gas at natural
- @730 Opponent Takes 3rd
- @900 Scout Immortal Sentry
+ Show Spoiler +
I think one of the best analogies of using this method is comparing it to learning a song on the piano. Often times the hardest part can be in the middle of the song. Instead of playing the song from the beginning every time, you might skip that part and go right into the meaty section. If you already have the beginning down pat, no reason to keep practicing it if there are other parts that need more work. Well I hope that everyone can take this idea and put it to some good use. Ever since I started practicing with this method, I have seen drastic improvements in my mechanics, multitasking and builds. Enjoy : )
TLDR: When you play vs the AI in Single Player mode you have the ability to save the game. By saving your build at different points, you can load up the game at any time during your build to practice and refine it.
Poll: Do you ever practice vs the AI?Yes (99) 80% No (24) 20% 123 total votes Your vote: Do you ever practice vs the AI? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Have you ever saved games to practice a build?No (69) 82% Yes (15) 18% 84 total votes Your vote: Have you ever saved games to practice a build? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Will you now practice by playing vs the AI?Yes (45) 62% No (28) 38% 73 total votes Your vote: Will you now practice by playing vs the AI? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Website: http://www.teamfallacy.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fallacy/118235151604632
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/TeamFallacy
Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/flckrypt
Account: http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/299590/fLcKrypt
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Thanks for the post, although I was already aware of practicing versus AI to perfect a build (day9 made me do it) I don't think it's a bad idea to spread the word to those rare few who feel embarressed to do it.
However, a practice partner is still the best way to go after that to work out the actual weaknesses of your build and how to deal with them.
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I can't begin to state how important playing against ai is(forever alone T.T). it can be used for creating new builds but i use it to polish my timings(sometimes by 30 seconds). Def good guide/ reminder to players .
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I prefer YABOT or SALT maps to saving games, too cumbersome tbh. It's worth pointing out that you can instantly restart a phase of a match with SALT just by text command. No loading screens and all that.
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Very easy AI. My favorite practice partner.
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On July 28 2012 09:39 Probe1 wrote:I prefer YABOT or SALT maps to saving games, too cumbersome tbh. It's worth pointing out that you can instantly restart a phase of a match with SALT just by text command. No loading screens and all that.
Oh wow, I never knew about the SALT maps, that's pretty neat. The SALT maps would be a good tool when practicing with another person because then you can re-create in-game scenarios. However, I still think that saving with VS AI is better if you are playing by yourself because then you can re-load the saved game at another point in time, SALT only saves it for the current session your in.
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Wow man this is super smart, il definitely be doing this in the future! Also another advantage of playing vs AI via "Single Player" is that you dont have the built in latency of battle.net that you get through custom games and ladder. The difference is actually pretty noticeable. Thanks !
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United States4883 Posts
A few thoughts:
1) Load up a game against AI in single player. You won't experience any issues with latency (kind of dumb that SC2 does this for multiplayer) and you can pause at will and as much as you want by pressing F10.
2) The biggest issue I have in playing against the AI is the fact that you don't trade any units. That being said, most builds can only really be practiced up until a planned attack timing. After this you run into a wall of not actually being able to play the game like you would on ladder. I'm looking forward to the addition of loading games from a replay in HotS. If you can open up a game where you had a flawless early game, you can do nothing but practice the midgame/lategame with an actual in-game representation. This will also help with practice partners so you can practice something like 12:00 roach/ling defense in PvZ without having to deal with the first 11 minutes.
3) There's actually nothing wrong with practicing your openings a million times. While it feels like it can waste a lot of time, that just means you should try to do something extra once you can execute your build flawlessly up until ~12:00. This means focusing on unit movement, creep spread, doing small pushouts with groups of marines, scouting continually with a probe until 6:00, etc. You want to not only perfect your build but try to also speed up your EPM and do more things at once.
I'm fairly certain I've played more games against the AI than I have against real people on ladder, so I'm sure of what I'm talking about. Practicing a build against the AI 50 times before playing it on ladder will make you so much better instantly. Of course, you run into problems on ladder with things you don't expect and rushes, etc; that all gets smoothed out later. But just simply practicing that same build over and over with extra actions will make you EXPONENTIALLY better.
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Great stuff, but probably only useful for master league and up. You're talking about marginal increases in efficiency/timing (which is everything at higher levels, but not so much at lower levels).
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I practice vs AI quite a bit to perfect my builds without any pressure since if you perfect the mechanics, they will stick to you and you'll be able to perform the build without any pressure even vs a real person, which means you'll be able to focus more on the non-buildorder parts of the game.
I skimmed through the thread but I'd just like to say that I really like your idea of creating a folder for each buildorder and I'll probably start doing that myself too, thanks! (:
edit: and SALT! omg that map, how could I have forgotten about that for such a long time, I bookmarked some SALT maps now, thanks for that too haha
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Canada13389 Posts
I should really do this a lot more. Instead of trying to iron out builds on the ladder -_-
Might do one week of simply practicing builds and trying to get them down in terms of hitting all my key timings.
If I can do it in perfect without forgetting I can remember orders then adjust as I play I think :/
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A lot of people used to do this in Warcraft 3 because your build order also included a creep pattern, which varied from map to map. Most creep camps were really simple and easy, but the tricks (item farming, abusing ai, kiting, dodging spells, etc.) were something you still had to practice so you could do things optimally with the least number of units. And then there were things like pulling your peasants as militia to creep, or building your ancient of war (night elf barracks) outside your base so that when it finished you could uproot it and have it help clear a tougher creep camp right away. But I haven't done this that much in SC2 since there obviously aren't creeps...so thanks for reminding me about this singlep player awesomeness!
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You should only practice against the AI to perfect your build timing. It's a good first stage for developing a build past an idea, but you need to find an actual human practice partner to make sure it's viable.
But yeah, I think it's something that most people skip and would really be useful in helping with refining timings/turning an idea into a build.
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Sort of. I will definitely test out builds in unit tester, and probably play on average 1 game a day/session (since i dont play everyday, basically) against AI to try to hit 70+ supply by 8:00 or really warm up and practice better timings.
But on the other hand, just go play the damn ladder. Just execute your build blindly on ladder, even if the opponent isn't the correct race. Your ladder points don't matter that much.
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On July 28 2012 14:07 Belial88 wrote:
Sort of. I will definitely test out builds in unit tester, and probably play on average 1 game a day/session (since i dont play everyday, basically) against AI to try to hit 70+ supply by 8:00 or really warm up and practice better timings.
But on the other hand, just go play the damn ladder. Just execute your build blindly on ladder, even if the opponent isn't the correct race. Your ladder points don't matter that much.
This is a lot harder when your race functions drastically differently in all 3 match-ups. You can't 1Gate Nexus in PvP.
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On July 29 2012 01:46 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 14:07 Belial88 wrote:
Sort of. I will definitely test out builds in unit tester, and probably play on average 1 game a day/session (since i dont play everyday, basically) against AI to try to hit 70+ supply by 8:00 or really warm up and practice better timings.
But on the other hand, just go play the damn ladder. Just execute your build blindly on ladder, even if the opponent isn't the correct race. Your ladder points don't matter that much. This is a lot harder when your race functions drastically differently in all 3 match-ups. You can't 1Gate Nexus in PvP.
But you sure can 4gate in every match up! 
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On July 28 2012 11:53 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Great stuff, but probably only useful for master league and up. You're talking about marginal increases in efficiency/timing (which is everything at higher levels, but not so much at lower levels).
I actually wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, I think that this form of practicing might be the most helpful from lower league players. Sure, little tweaks to a build might not be as big of a deal, but the practice concept is just as important. Many people stay in lower leagues because they make simple macro mistakes such as forgetting production rounds, getting supply blocked or not injecting. If you can just practice a simple macro build order over and over again until you get it perfect, you'd be surprised how much better you'd do in a game vs a real opponent. I believe that imperfect build execution is what holds many lower level players back from being promoted to the next league. So many times, friends of mine from lower leagues (Diamond and below) have sent me replays asking what they did wrong, and when I watch those replays, all their strategical choices are fine, it's just they have 20 less supply than they should because they didn't execute their macro well enough...sure if you micro'ed a little better, hit your forcefields or split your units better, you would have won that battle, but imagine if your army was 20% larger.
Do not underestimate the power of macro execution, it's the only thing you can practice without needing an opponent!
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When i moved i had to internet for 3 weeks, so i just practised 1 build for each matchup 2-3 hours a day for a week and i could see how my macro ability was improving. Alone from just having more units than my opponent i could easily win matches in diamond league after my internet was installed. Even nowadays i practise aggainst ai as warmup matches or when i´m not motivated to ladder just to play SC2 and i´m still improving my macro.
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You... can save a game against AI .... this will skip me the boring few first minutes :D. I've been plaing against AI to warm up since beta, but never knew that we could save xD.
Thanks a lot  .
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I prefer to practice against the Medium AI when I drill build orders so when then I kill the AI at some point and win and I pick up one more win closer to the custom game achieve.
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And then of course there will be the times where you have this AWESOME idea against Protoss on Entombed Valley, and you are just waiting to queue up against that poor Protoss fool and then when you finally do, you go down to build your Hatchery, there are 3 Pylons greeting you at the bottom of your ramp. It can be quite frustrating, I know. So let me present to you the better and less stressful way of practicing and improving your play: playing vs the AI.
Dont get offended by my post but... u should just find friends, practice partners to test the ideas. U can practice builds against ai to 4-5 minutes but later... well I think its stupid to play ai. AI will not play as a normal opponent so your ideas could be not as good as you think after practice against computer. Get real gamers to play with you, practice with them and thats all.
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Can u upload your saved games or list of strategies.
I saw a lot of strategies in the screenshot that I'm very interested in
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I have been using Macro or Die since for about a year now. The maps are outdated, but the AI is agressive at least and constantly makes units. I love using it to warm up before diving into ladder, since it is low impact and can be beaten with better macro.
I like watching replays for build orders and just smashing head long into the ladder to practice them. I find the most important of any build order is knowing when to abandon it because your opponent is doing something odd. AI's don't really get into that level of gameplay.
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On July 31 2012 00:32 AzoriuS wrote:Show nested quote +And then of course there will be the times where you have this AWESOME idea against Protoss on Entombed Valley, and you are just waiting to queue up against that poor Protoss fool and then when you finally do, you go down to build your Hatchery, there are 3 Pylons greeting you at the bottom of your ramp. It can be quite frustrating, I know. So let me present to you the better and less stressful way of practicing and improving your play: playing vs the AI. Dont get offended by my post but... u should just find friends, practice partners to test the ideas. U can practice builds against ai to 4-5 minutes but later... well I think its stupid to play ai. AI will not play as a normal opponent so your ideas could be not as good as you think after practice against computer. Get real gamers to play with you, practice with them and thats all.
I don't think you quite understand what is being discussed. This is not a replacement for practice partners or the ladder. It is a controlled environment where you can practice low level mechanics or walk through the general structure of the build. The AI is inferior to a human opponent, but with this practice you don't want the AI to act like a human. You want it to stay out of your face until you are ready to kill it and end the excercise.
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great write up! I usally do 1-2 AI games before even jumping on ladder to make sure i'm on top of my game. Perfect practice makes perfect!
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On July 31 2012 00:32 AzoriuS wrote:Show nested quote +And then of course there will be the times where you have this AWESOME idea against Protoss on Entombed Valley, and you are just waiting to queue up against that poor Protoss fool and then when you finally do, you go down to build your Hatchery, there are 3 Pylons greeting you at the bottom of your ramp. It can be quite frustrating, I know. So let me present to you the better and less stressful way of practicing and improving your play: playing vs the AI. Dont get offended by my post but... u should just find friends, practice partners to test the ideas. U can practice builds against ai to 4-5 minutes but later... well I think its stupid to play ai. AI will not play as a normal opponent so your ideas could be not as good as you think after practice against computer. Get real gamers to play with you, practice with them and thats all.
Well first, I do have plenty of practice partners and teammates that I practice on a regular basis, but just because you are playing vs a real person, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be good practice. There are three reasons it's better to iron the build out first vs an AI before taking it to the real test:
1. Sure it might help you out practicing vs a real player, but depending on their skill, it could be a waste of their time because you will do a poor job executing it and I doubt everyone wants to sit there playing with you until you finally get it right. People wouldn't want to practice vs you if you were like that.
2. It's a lot more difficult memorizing and getting used to executing a build when you have to worry about every other factor in the game like microing units, watching the mini map etc. Anyone who is teaching something new will always tell you to take it slow in the beginning and slowly make it more advanced. It's just how the brain works, it can't handle so much new information at once until it is fully accustomed to the task at hand. If you don't practice it properly, you might throw out the strategy just because you didn't realize the true potential of the build.
3. You really don't need an opponent necessarily to know if a build is viable if you know your timings. Matchups such as ZvP, it is expected that there will be extreme passivity for the first 8 minutes so you really don't need an opp to test stuff during those points of the game. You can also use time-supply bencmarks to know how your build is doing, so you really don't need an opponent to know if your army will be strong enough at given times.
As far as matchups that are extremely variable from the getgo, like ZvZ, yes your are right, it probably isn't worth practicing vs the AI as much. But there are tons of scenarios where it's the opposite so it's good to practice your macro for those situations.
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I really like the idea of the game saves. This not only gives you a way to practice but it also documents progress. Any time you attempt to execute one of your builds on ladder it gives you a refrence that you can say, "Did I actually build enough workers? Did I hit my timings?" Things you can ask your self before "How do i beet my oppoenents X units?" Which in most cases comes down to the answer "I didn't have enough stuff." Also it seems like a good idea to go back and test your medal, see if you can beat that saved game and get a better one. This can be in the area of marco, APM, creep spread what ever area that you want to improve about the saved game.This is a measure of improvement that is always good to have.
I for one have done countless games against AI and started at Bronze level (I think). I started with zero rts experience. I played against computers and started mimicing their builds (which are very bad, but it got me to match injects etc). I got placed into plat after my placements to my suprize, aparently doing the roach build of med-> very hard computers got me to plat. However, I could tell I still didn't belong I was getting crushed by huge armies and sent straight back to low gold. I then went back to WoW to come back ~9-10 months later after I had found Day[9] and TL. I did the same thing, I used what I had learned about fundamentals and practiced those until I was satisfied to attempt them during a game. I launched from low gold to plat in about a week. I am now placing against diamonds and can easily identify what macro mistakes I make. I now feel it is is mostly ladder experience I need now and truely enjoy the ladder because I have a decent foundation and clear path to improvement (an extremly long one) that makes laddering exciting.
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I know APM is not the best indication of good play, but having started to really dig into perfecting my macro and not using ANY micro has been interesting. Prior to focusing on macro playing against the CPU, I could hit as high as 40-45 APM if there were intense battles going on. Since macro practicing without using any micro, my APM is at around 60 easily - just macro actions (and that includes 0 spam). I just never realized how much there is to do as a terran player in the first 14 minutes of the game to get perfect macro. By 14 minutes, I can now have a +2 attack +1 armor, combat shield and stim upgraded 196 food MMM army with 13 barracks with add-ons and 3 bases working on a 4th -- all because I was able to practice without worrying about getting smashed on the ladder while I learned to execute these things. Now, I'll admit, I SUCK at micro while doing this, and that is where my practice is going now that I am confident in my macro play.
This is the best way to solidify your play, just DO IT! :D
-Jinx
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/playvsAI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/gamespeedchange.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/match-upfolders.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/BuildFolders.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/SavedGames.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii624/fLcKrypt/BranchFolders.jpg)
