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I never said I cannot improve or that I will be stuck on 50 APM forever. All I am saying is that my APM will not improve as fast as it would if I was 20something (which is indeed a matter of the brain not the hands).
I also didnt mean to say "Well, if I have a low APM I will have to accept that I suck and build everything around it". BUT, if I have a low APM, know that because of my age it will improve much slower and want to have fun, then it is legitimate to build around these circumstances.
After all, I managed to improve since the beta - I was playing Diamond in every season and given that everybody else imrpoves this shows I am improving as well. No doubt about that.
But let me ask you this. If you would teach a certain complicated task to someone else - e.g. playing chess, repairing a car, riding a bike, using a computer or learning a new language - would you use the same methods for people who are 20 as for people who are 40 or even 60? Would you use the same methods for people who are clearly talented as for people who are not?
Probably not and if you would use the same methods you might not get the same results.
Maybe it is a good way to learn starcraft aiming for "pro-level" if you are young and maybe there are better ways to learn it if you are older and adjust your playstyle to the premises of an older age (which might be an advantage in other areas of sc2 btw).
There is one result of neurosciences that has been repeated over and over: We do learn complicated tasks best while having fun (whereas we could learn simple tasks like not missing a wueen inject quite well when applying an electroshock every time a queen inject is missed - but that wouldnt be fun of course).
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United States4883 Posts
On July 25 2012 16:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:46 Cyro wrote:On July 24 2012 09:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 24 2012 08:03 Cyro wrote: but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better) I dont understand how people can say this. I barely had 15apm when i started playing 2 years ago but developed that into ~180apm with only 15% redundancy playing zerg, and from a theoretical standpoint that could probably be doubled, i maintained that with only around 30-40 games this season (~6 weeks?), playing with the mindset of "I am X good and will never be better" seems so pointless, unless your goal is to sit at 50% win ratio at a level where your opponents are competant enough to destroy you because your army is so much smaller or tech/expansion/pushes later due to investing much more than neccesary into production facilities, queueing, supply buffer etc. Getting extra production is a bandaid fix to help out at lower levels, nothing more really You see that kind of stuff in high level games too. For example, not many will queue just 1 round as terran lategame. They often have 2 rounds. Boxer is a big example -- he queues up a lot, like when his macro is slipping and he enters another battle, but he is still pretty good. Other specific situations are lategame TvP, where you get more production facilities to remax asap because you have to spend so much APM micro'ing in fight as well, and u need those reinforcements asap since his warpgates allow him to reinforce much faster. Even pros use bandaid fixes for their play. But not to the extent of crippling yourself for no reason other than an artificial APM ceiling I don't understand what you mean. Isn't that agreeing with what I said? Everyone has an APM ceiling; you have to adapt your strategy in consideration of your APM, AKA "crippling". Adapting your strategy due to this ceiling is a good reason.
Literally no one has an APM ceiling of 50 APM. Again, I emphasize that you should attempt to play perfectly, making sure your mind is where it needs to be; your hands will eventually catch up to your brain. You'll have fun executing a strategy you like, and slowly you'll do it better and better. 
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I don't know if it's been clarified already, but...how fast do you type? In WPM.
I know that WPM doesn't directly define how high your APM is in SC2, but it can really help us to gauge your agility and see where you stand. If you can type fast, it's because your finger muscle memory allows you to, and even if it's a subconscious thing, when you're typing real words and real sentences that actually have meaning, you're putting reason into each letter you type.
With APM, assuming you don't spam, you're putting reason into each key you press. If you're capable of typing fast, then you should be capable of playing SC2 fast paced. You just have to develop the muscle memory for hotkeys in game.
Now where the HIGH apm comes in, it is basically SPAM. If you are clear on what hotkeys you need to press..and when, then spamming will act as a momentum towards your play. If you are not clear on when you need to press those hotkeys, then spamming will be mindless and pointless.
Regardless of your age, you can improve your APM, and you can do it significantly, assuming you already have good typing skills. If you don't, well, it'll just take you a significantly longer.
In any case, to improve as a player, you have to be faster. Strategy, mind gaming the opponent, etc, is all there, but the number one necessity is being able to physically carry out those tasks. If you're fingers can't do the job, it doesn't matter what you're thinking.
edit: And unless you are pro level, mouse accuracy and speed shouldn't be a prioritized area of focus. Being able to use the keyboard efficiently is significantly more important early on and will improve your play much more.
If you want to adjust to your APM, you are severely limiting your ability to improve. I suggest you adjust by changing your playing habits, not changing something IN the game. I'm sure with practice and repetition, you'll become faster.
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United Arab Emirates27 Posts
I to am 36 years old playing Terran with about 60APM and 75-80 on Zerg with 0 spam.
What i found out to improve my gameplay significantly was to stay away from watching the fights and instead taking a few seconds in adding these few additional building or taking another expand and going back at it.
I have lost games by spending too much time doing that bits while my army would get slaughtered, but won more by doing so
I also do not hesitate anymore in queueing SCV's especially once my production is up. 2 by 2 does the trick just fine.
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I do agree with you.
The funny thing about day9 is, his target audience is a lot about low level players, but he keeps pointing out stuff that are only relevant at an insanely high level (like watching own replays and noting things like "hey, if I move my worker at 53 supply rather than at 51 to build my third, the drone hits the third at exactly 300 minerals, so I better remember that" I have no idea what you are smoking, Day9, but it's not healthy. And I want some.).
If you wind up with 3000 minerals in a game, well you can't change that, can you. But you CAN warp in a ton of gateways. Yes, it's not cost efficient and you can't support that off of the bases you have in the long run, but heck, 3000 minerals in the bank serve much less purpose.
So I'm totally on your turf (being 35 myself). My spending is quite good, though. But everything will come in time eventually. At some point you will, with practice, note that you actually can't afford 8 gates and 2 robos off of two base and you skip a robo and a gate. Either that, or you really have hit a longer term skillcap. But heck, who cares.
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just spam those buttons in the beginning. Your fingers will get speed. As a guitarist all my idols are either dead or 50+ years. Their finger spead is INCREDIBLE. There's no reason why you can't get the same speed unless you have some form of arthritis.
Believe in yourself and start spaming those fingers. APM comes first. EPM comes after.
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I find that my accuracy seems to increase more when I practice than my APM. When I haven't played for a while, my (Blizz) APM might be something like 40 or 50, and it might be something like 60 if I have been practicing. On the other hand, I'm much better at avoiding supply blocks, knowing where my opponent's army is, spending my money, hitting timings and such when I have been practicing. I can sometimes execute these things better than opponents with much higher APM, so AMP is definitely not everything.
I also find that when I'm in practice I can peak at a much higher APM when a lot of things are happening at once, but most of the time I don't seem to need it. That said, I had abandon stargate builds (I play protoss) for a while because I couldn't manage to keep everything going at once, so there are definitely situations that call for a high APM.
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On July 25 2012 21:51 ThePlayer33 wrote:
this should be in blogs.
no, it is just fine here
k thx bai
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APM is like a ressource at any level of play. If you can free APM by having overproduction you can spend that APM by microing units more. If you focus heavily on perfect macro, then you might be better off using "A-move" friendly unit compositions. E.g. prefer hydras instead of roaches to reduce effects of Force Fields, as Terran play mech insteand of MMM, build production overcapacity, inject 2 hatches wiht one queen etc.. Even pros do this, however in a much more subtle way than low level players.
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APM is only relevant as a measurement of spikes in performance during engagements. Spamming is only relevant in terms of finding and maintaining a rhythm.
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It is always good to build more production facilities if you are floating to many resources. What else should you spent it on? After some practice you will start remembering when you have to build units and thats when you can start using less buildings. Thats when your APM will increase naturally as well. But till then you can definitely use some more production facilities than recommended by pros or day9 since they most likely assume that you produce units everytime one unit leaves the facility. If you cant keep this production cycles up you should definitely use more
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At 50 apm I don't see how it is your brain stopping you. Leaving that asides, what is it about sc you find fun and what are your goals with it?
At 37 you ought to understand that most of the fun comes in the pursuit, so I cant see why you don't want to try to play at a pro level. And unless you are a pro why sacrifice improvement for short term rewards?
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On July 26 2012 03:07 mewo wrote:
At 50 apm I don't see how it is your brain stopping you. Leaving that asides, what is it about sc you find fun and what are your goals with it?
At 37 you ought to understand that most of the fun comes in the pursuit, so I cant see why you don't want to try to play at a pro level. And unless you are a pro why sacrifice improvement for short term rewards?
I am talking about average (Blizz) APM. Of course I have something about 200-300 during warpins, but I also have a lot of glitches, where I have to click twice to select a probe, where I am sending my probe and need antoher second to remember WHY I did send it there etc.
And as much I appreciate you trying to teach me where the fun comes from and what I have to understand I would prefer to decide for myself what is fun for me and what not
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On July 26 2012 04:47 Atropin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 03:07 mewo wrote:
At 50 apm I don't see how it is your brain stopping you. Leaving that asides, what is it about sc you find fun and what are your goals with it?
At 37 you ought to understand that most of the fun comes in the pursuit, so I cant see why you don't want to try to play at a pro level. And unless you are a pro why sacrifice improvement for short term rewards?
I am talking about average (Blizz) APM. Of course I have something about 200-300 during warpins, but I also have a lot of glitches, where I have to click twice to select a probe, where I am sending my probe and need antoher second to remember WHY I did send it there etc.
You should look into being more precise with your clicks and button pressing. Speed is something that you build upon gradually once you have fundamental muscle control. This is exactly the same as with playing a musical instrument; songs are played at a very slow rate and then gradually worked up to full speed. I wouldn't even bother looking at your APM in replays; just focus on making smoother actions and playing calmly. You say you have problems with selecting units and remembering why your units are going where they're going. That sounds to me like you're anxious when you play. If you can get yourself a bit more relaxed during games, and just focus more on naturally playing than on thinking about the game, it will probably help you considerably.
And as much I appreciate you trying to teach me where the fun comes from and what I have to understand I would prefer to decide for myself what is fun for me and what not
Then don't open the very first post in a thread with your concept of playing the game for fun. If you bring something up on a popular forum, it's probably going to be debated. You opened Pandora's Box.
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On July 26 2012 04:47 Atropin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 03:07 mewo wrote:
At 50 apm I don't see how it is your brain stopping you. Leaving that asides, what is it about sc you find fun and what are your goals with it?
At 37 you ought to understand that most of the fun comes in the pursuit, so I cant see why you don't want to try to play at a pro level. And unless you are a pro why sacrifice improvement for short term rewards?
I am talking about average (Blizz) APM. Of course I have something about 200-300 during warpins, but I also have a lot of glitches, where I have to click twice to select a probe, where I am sending my probe and need antoher second to remember WHY I did send it there etc. And as much I appreciate you trying to teach me where the fun comes from and what I have to understand I would prefer to decide for myself what is fun for me and what not
It would be easier to restate what I said as, "why play without actively trying to get better?"
It's a game. It's function is largely fun. You should be comfortable describing how you have fun and open to discussion from others about what fun is. That being said, the majority of players play with a mindset of improvement. Why have a build if not to play better? Why warpin at 200 apm if not to be better? I just find the idea that since you aren't playing for stakes that you should ignore your weakest point and focus on other ways to win backwards.
Why you play informs any sort of reasonable discussion about this.
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On July 25 2012 16:56 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 16:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 24 2012 10:46 Cyro wrote:On July 24 2012 09:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 24 2012 08:03 Cyro wrote: but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better) I dont understand how people can say this. I barely had 15apm when i started playing 2 years ago but developed that into ~180apm with only 15% redundancy playing zerg, and from a theoretical standpoint that could probably be doubled, i maintained that with only around 30-40 games this season (~6 weeks?), playing with the mindset of "I am X good and will never be better" seems so pointless, unless your goal is to sit at 50% win ratio at a level where your opponents are competant enough to destroy you because your army is so much smaller or tech/expansion/pushes later due to investing much more than neccesary into production facilities, queueing, supply buffer etc. Getting extra production is a bandaid fix to help out at lower levels, nothing more really You see that kind of stuff in high level games too. For example, not many will queue just 1 round as terran lategame. They often have 2 rounds. Boxer is a big example -- he queues up a lot, like when his macro is slipping and he enters another battle, but he is still pretty good. Other specific situations are lategame TvP, where you get more production facilities to remax asap because you have to spend so much APM micro'ing in fight as well, and u need those reinforcements asap since his warpgates allow him to reinforce much faster. Even pros use bandaid fixes for their play. But not to the extent of crippling yourself for no reason other than an artificial APM ceiling I don't understand what you mean. Isn't that agreeing with what I said? Everyone has an APM ceiling; you have to adapt your strategy in consideration of your APM, AKA "crippling". Adapting your strategy due to this ceiling is a good reason. Literally no one has an APM ceiling of 50 APM. Again, I emphasize that you should attempt to play perfectly, making sure your mind is where it needs to be; your hands will eventually catch up to your brain. You'll have fun executing a strategy you like, and slowly you'll do it better and better.
If that's what Cyro's trying to say, then he missed my point. You aren't limiting your own improvement by doing things like I described to make up for your APM. Things like making more barracks lategame TvP because it's so important you reinforce quickly, and don't want to risk even cutting units for 5 seconds. Pros do this. Boxer often queues up more than 2 rounds of units. Even Zerg players, since humans aren't perfect, will prefer to get lots of larvae, so that they aren't limited to what they make. They will not be able to use 100% of their larvae all the time, they will either have too few or too many. This is an extreme example but it's common to every zerg. No one uses and makes the perfect amount of hatches/larvae. Things like this are incorporated into everyone's play. Doing such things will not limit your growth. Once you improve your macro, you can cut down on these.
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On July 24 2012 07:29 Atropin wrote:
I am a Diamond protoss player, 37 years old who just plays in his free time, has no intention to become a pro gamer and JUST plays for fun. I do zero APM spam, except for putting probes on near mineral patches in the beginning and I always end up with approximately 50 APM (like in the replays not in sc2gears), which only improved since the BETA from maybe 35 to 50. I also still get supply blocked occasionally.
I do also think there are a lot of other people like me out there.
When I read about Strategies and build orders (or watch day9) I hear a lot about "How many production facilities can i support sitting on X bases".
On the other hand I hear a lot about "Spend your Gas and Minerals". On a progamer level these botrh might go hand in hand, but when someone plays with 50 APM (and in my age i do not expect my APM to get significantly better) those two asumptions do not seem to match each other.
When I lose games I do have a lot of minerals in the bank quite often, just because i lack the APM to micro my army, do my macro and warp in units at the exact time.
Thus, i developed a build with a FE, going 2 robos and 8 gateways. This allows me to move out with 5 immortals, 16-18 gateway units and a warp prism at approx. 10:45. Then i warp in gateway units out of 8 gateways in his main while attacking his third with my main army.
I know you would not be able to support this many production facilities out of 2 bases, nevertheless I do win a lot versus Zerg having a much higher APM then me.
The build is just an example, I do similar things in pvp and pvt. My point is that I do leave the path day9 has laid out for me to become a better gamer, because I realised that my APM will not improve a lot in my age and I wasnt having a lot of fun sitting on too many minerals all the time. Adjusting my builds according to my APM did put me from low diamond to high diamond (although that might just be because I had the time to play a bit more lately)
The point I would like to discuss now is: Given that you do not want to go pro, but just play for having fun and getting a bit better over time. So you think it makes sense to think these build like 'out of the box', just accepting your weaknesses and tweak your builds to compensate?
Everyone creates crutches for their playstyle... It's how you get better.
Why think innovating to have a better win rate that fits your terms is terrible, when you aren't as strong as standard play?
Just food for thought, you play with very few hotkeys right?
Boy, oh boy, I'm 16 and when I was playing with like 2 hotkeys I was thinking my max APM was like 65. Now I use 4 or 5 and I have an APM usually of 100 according to Blizzard.
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Erring on the side of too many production facilities instead of too few seems like a good idea. It gives you flexibility as the game goes on. With a very lean build you have to hit all your macro cycles to stay on top of economy and army production. With a fatter production surplus, you get the option of catching up by slamming out a bunch of units. If you think in terms of wasted minerals, accepting the cost of a few extra gates may put a player closer to 0 than they would be when playing with pro build orders and diamond macro.
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On July 26 2012 02:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
APM is like a ressource at any level of play.
This is a simple truth and solid basis for improving in any game. Given that I'm also an aging gamer I take exception to "just accepting your weakness", but do agree that you can tweak your game play to a certain extent.
TLDR: Optimising your win chance is ok, but don't give up on improving raw APM, and be mindful of bad habits that could undermine you in 6 months.
Raw APM is a personal resource improved in or outside of the game.
This is underpinned by physical and mental health. You can improve this by spamming buttons, doing squishy ball and rubber band exercises; but more important is general health such as exercise and diet etc. Getting good sleep. These also help deal with adrenaline overloads that can freeze you up.
Obviously you don't want to go pro, so how much time your willing to invest in your Raw APM is a personal decision.
Age is a determinant on some common health issues, and there are some constraints you probably can't do a lot about. E.g. Carpal tunnel, Alzheimer's, or arthritis. Some can be managed, others not so. So if this is your weakness, then its ok accepting the weakness and building around this is probably ok. For me, I am dealing with carpal tunnel by wrapping my mouse hand wrist with a small bandage such that the wrist stays straight at all times.
Transforming raw APM into effective APM is improved mostly inside game
To state my terminology: An effective action (effective APM) is an action that has value to the pursuit of your win chance. I'll also term future effective APM, that being your effective APM in say 6months.
Practise and experience improves effective APM resource pool. Basically this relates to muscle memory (physical) & game sense (mental) at a subconscious level (some coin this mechanics). You're fast because "without conscience thought" you put down an earlier evo chamber when you scout or sniff a stargate.
Certain actions also have more value at a certain point in time. E.g. Generally spending raw APM on macro has more value (win chance) then microing an army (but not at all times).
Regarding tweaking your builds to compensate for low raw APM. There is a trade-off between optimising your valuable action "to do" list now (effective APM today), and the bad habits that you'll need to overcome to unlock future effective APM; however habits can be unlearned with some effort. Perhaps you need to list your short cuts and consider if these might effect your win chance in 6 months time. Queing 2 workers at a time is probably not going to have a big impact in 6 months or even 12 months. Perhaps in that time your eAPM might be high enough to adjust these habits out with some work.
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EPT
