EPTGuys danced their basic melee units around. I compensated by getting ranged-only armies; more focus-firing than kiting even. Then they did all sorts of monkey business beyond that. I compensated by watching for windows of opportunity or plain mistakes in what they did (e.g. combined focus-fire with watching health bars, getting down targets unlikely to be healed individually or microed individually, or more likely to be rid of by one shot). I also realised a guy microing like mad couldn't possibly be paying attention to developing his base and teching etc. at the same time, so I sometimes jumped out of combat to build up a bit. Dudes had faster mechanics, not necessarily better but sometimes better indeed, but less experience (I go back to Dune 2). So I emphasised things like upgrades, having 2 to 4 forges per game, relied on units that had synergies and worked well together (e.g. "riflesorc"). Due to unit caps from some earlier RTS games and the fact I played a lot of RPG, I tended to favour smaller armies, which wasn't always optimal but I could learn them well, stay on top of them, have a huge bank (WC3 had upkeep; you could go up to 100 supply but at 50 you got 70% of resources mined and at 80 you got 40%) etc. Ironically, at some point I had the micro to dance units like that and could make up for having a disadvantage in unit numbers and as a minimum with just a couple of footmen I could get the opponent's hero out of play, denying XP and forcing attention there. (So the opponent had his resources sunk in a useless army while I could get away with development... or with my characteristic macro/production slowness (slow timings, often related to build order) I've never become able to understand.) For the record, my APM (BWchart/WC3chart? There was some program for both WC3 and SC1) was like 70 average and 250 burst in my peak period, about 55 before and after that; about 37 for a long period before, as little as 18 even some time after beginning (and I'd win with that), where burst obviously must have been bigger. Right now, SC2gears shows for me about 60 and sometimes 50 or 70 average, up to 400 at peak moments. Generally, my average seems to be much lower than my opponents' ("effective APM" tending to be closer to equal, when you remove "spam"), while my "burst" (peak) APM to be much higher. More than a half is micro APM as opposed to macro. I can generally micro better than people I meet (though I'm erratic with siege tanks or M(M)TV), while I can't really play as fast overall. As for WPM that somebody brought up, well, it always depends on the words; I find characters to be more reliable. I can hit about 460 characters per minute in tests (probably more in real life when I'm not consciously focusing on it or testing), which can be anything in WPM. But I have a problem with locating single keys with my fingers and hitting them right, as opposed to entire words. When I get something wrong in typing, I can just look once or simply readjust without looking, and it's okay, I have the rhythm. With single keys, there's no rhythm, no nothing, I can't keep it up.
Some of the things posters mention in this thread seem to come down to the choice between working from your strengths or working on your weaknesses. Thing is, if you spend the time smoothening out your weaknesses, you may end up average overall (and so unable to win high even if you can't lose low). If you maximise your strengths, you have the oomph to tip the scale but you also still have weaknesses (you're uneven and perhaps coinflippy, like in my case). I suspect the key is spotting the things with the best investment return (time/effort invested vs improvement in results). Perhaps for some people it's faster/more efficient to develop their strengths, for others to eliminate their weaknesses. The "right" answer probably won't be the same for everybody. I guess everybody's preferred way seems natural to him, even to the point of seeing the other way as stupid or unimaginable.
Next, I agree with the OP that when you're older and mostly want fun, it does feel unfun to put yourself through focused APM training or some such. But I guess it can be made more attractive, spiced up: as in, if you find some attractive gain for yourself in it, if you make the process attractive, it will go better. For example, when I teach law to non-lawyers (most of the time I teach Polish law in English to Polish translators who want to be able to translate into English), especially when stuff gets really boring, I spice it up by anecdotes, comical accents, outright jokes sometimes, try to stimulate them to come up with ideas, drag them towards a higher pacing. Whereas previously, with university students who needed to take a Latin resit, I'd sit them at their desk, then pace the room behind their back and have them recite declinations and conjugations I'd correct by ear; sometimes I'd turn my back to them and look at the window disinterestedly, catching mistakes by ear while enjoying the landscape. (And homework went in the hundreds overnight.) After dealing with this type of thing from me, they probably welcomed the exams. Obviously can't do it to people who are almost all older than I am (I'm 29), tired after work and at any rate no longer pupils; neither should one do it to children. In fact, with some students I worked by cutting of all rigour and even having beer in the process; with others I had to show off the ease with what I was doing the thing now and tell them how I sucked before. The trick in SC2 improvement would be to find the right approach to training myself but I haven't found it yet. I only know that simply massing the ladder games won't work. (On the other hand, analysing every replay right after the game can throw you off pace.) I suppose Koreans do it like I did Latin, not sure about Europeans. I think at least Poles are likely to be more random up to a point, realising they have talent and practicing further or realising that they suck and mass-practicing to get better; either way, they become gosu at some random, undefined point. Unless something has changed. I haven't followed the Polish scene since 2008.
As for the OP's specific situation, however, I think I know one thing that might be helpful: while playing a little a day is okay for keeping your skill or improving (according to Nerchio: 2 hours for keeping, more for improving, and he's not Korean), it's eight hour sessions that actually push your skill limits. This is something I remember from a gaming journalist or some such person doing an experiment, and yeah, 8 hour bursts were actually boring (like going to work basically) but they drove the skill higher for him. It was the same for the guy I played 2v2 WC2 and WC3 with. Initially, we were both around 30-40 APM, at some point he started to mass ladder games, then he met some folks in a clan, I suppose the mass practicing caused the rise in his APM. He did try to play faster on purpose (or at least I think so) but he wasn't a spammer and he ended up claiming APM meant nothing when his period of fascination with it ended. I had more games logged, I believe, but he simply did that mass practicing at a time. That was when his mechanics jumped. Bottom line you can probably get your APM higher by massing a real lot of games for a short time and maybe trying to play faster but not doing anything more than that.
On July 24 2012 16:27 Powster wrote:
Anyway.. to me.. theres no point in playing a game if you dont aim to ever actually be good at it. Maybe you will never be a pro.. but at least working towards pro level skill is part of the fun to me. If I were you (which I am not lol) I would work on speed more than anything.. even if it makes you stay at your current level for a long time. Eventually that spam will be real actions that will help A LOT when you need it.
Anyway.. to me.. theres no point in playing a game if you dont aim to ever actually be good at it. Maybe you will never be a pro.. but at least working towards pro level skill is part of the fun to me. If I were you (which I am not lol) I would work on speed more than anything.. even if it makes you stay at your current level for a long time. Eventually that spam will be real actions that will help A LOT when you need it.
I used to believe otherwise but higher speed can come before the ability to be accurate at that speed. My typing improvement seems to confirm this a little.
On July 24 2012 16:33 paintfive wrote:
Quickness and multi tasking comes with practice and you need the appropriate apm for it. your builds are working because they're weird and unexpected. and you're in diamond.
Quickness and multi tasking comes with practice and you need the appropriate apm for it. your builds are working because they're weird and unexpected. and you're in diamond.
I suspect just fitting things in the time-windows when you'd just be looking at one point on the map is a good first step and the most efficient one. It's literally like tabbing out of a battle to put down some key structures and order another round of production out or tabbing between two army groups, so I guess harassing behind and attack/attacking behind a harass/two-pronging can probably do it on its own. Personally, I'm still kinda stuck in the old games where multitasking simply was not required.
On July 25 2012 08:29 ghostdog wrote:
And the answer is relatively simple: you play for fun (as does just about everyone), so do what seems fun to you at the time. If you feel you should be doing something else, try it, and you'll soon know whether you enjoy it or not
And the answer is relatively simple: you play for fun (as does just about everyone), so do what seems fun to you at the time. If you feel you should be doing something else, try it, and you'll soon know whether you enjoy it or not
I guess focusing for a week or so on improving your mechanics in a game you plan to play for fun for a long time isn't a bad idea. But it's difficult to stop talking and just do it, something I know very well on my own example.
On July 25 2012 16:53 Atropin wrote:
There is one result of neurosciences that has been repeated over and over: We do learn complicated tasks best while having fun (whereas we could learn simple tasks like not missing a wueen inject quite well when applying an electroshock every time a queen inject is missed - but that wouldnt be fun of course).
There is one result of neurosciences that has been repeated over and over: We do learn complicated tasks best while having fun (whereas we could learn simple tasks like not missing a wueen inject quite well when applying an electroshock every time a queen inject is missed - but that wouldnt be fun of course).
Some people don't care about leagues, APMs or anything and still post good results. I guess some of those may actually be having fun playing the game.
On July 25 2012 18:04 Sparte Legion wrote:
I to am 36 years old playing Terran with about 60APM and 75-80 on Zerg with 0 spam.
What i found out to improve my gameplay significantly was to stay away from watching the fights and instead taking a few seconds in adding these few additional building or taking another expand and going back at it.
I have lost games by spending too much time doing that bits while my army would get slaughtered, but won more by doing so
I also do not hesitate anymore in queueing SCV's especially once my production is up. 2 by 2 does the trick just fine.
I to am 36 years old playing Terran with about 60APM and 75-80 on Zerg with 0 spam.
What i found out to improve my gameplay significantly was to stay away from watching the fights and instead taking a few seconds in adding these few additional building or taking another expand and going back at it.
I have lost games by spending too much time doing that bits while my army would get slaughtered, but won more by doing so
I also do not hesitate anymore in queueing SCV's especially once my production is up. 2 by 2 does the trick just fine.
I'm erratic in execution (in no small part due to the fact that production wasn't such a huge part of WC3) but in theory I would make those quick on-the-fly judgements as to whether it's more profitable to queue right now than to check on the building later. I definitely queue before battles when my bank allows, or during battles if it just means pressing 9 (all my raxes) and holding down a (marine) until minerals hit zero. If I need MM, I'll even sometimes just hold down D for a while and A for a while, not thinking about it too much because the time is kinda precious, too precious to take long breaks to think. So I optimise the effort/time but it's only good for right now (and I improve in fighting ways of optimising it for right now) but it doesn't focus on developing the skill to do things the right way.
On July 25 2012 19:09 Mahtasooma wrote:
I do agree with you.
The funny thing about day9 is, his target audience is a lot about low level players, but he keeps pointing out stuff that are only relevant at an insanely high level (like watching own replays and noting things like "hey, if I move my worker at 53 supply rather than at 51 to build my third, the drone hits the third at exactly 300 minerals, so I better remember that" I have no idea what you are smoking, Day9, but it's not healthy. And I want some.).
I do agree with you.
The funny thing about day9 is, his target audience is a lot about low level players, but he keeps pointing out stuff that are only relevant at an insanely high level (like watching own replays and noting things like "hey, if I move my worker at 53 supply rather than at 51 to build my third, the drone hits the third at exactly 300 minerals, so I better remember that" I have no idea what you are smoking, Day9, but it's not healthy. And I want some.).
Well, Day9 does say things like it's not necessary in lower leagues that you don't get supply blocked at all while doing this or that build, but if you do manage to do it without getting supply blocked, then it's a bonus. He says things like that from time to time.
On July 25 2012 19:09 Mahtasooma wrote:
So I'm totally on your turf (being 35 myself). My spending is quite good, though. But everything will come in time eventually. At some point you will, with practice, note that you actually can't afford 8 gates and 2 robos off of two base and you skip a robo and a gate. Either that, or you really have hit a longer term skillcap. But heck, who cares.
So I'm totally on your turf (being 35 myself). My spending is quite good, though. But everything will come in time eventually. At some point you will, with practice, note that you actually can't afford 8 gates and 2 robos off of two base and you skip a robo and a gate. Either that, or you really have hit a longer term skillcap. But heck, who cares.
Oh, and speaking of Day9, he advocates training one thing at a time and focusing on doing that one thing right, even if you're losing games. An example would be playing 20 games without missing an SCV cycle, even if this messes up your build and you lose. If you hammer that habit into your brain, you don't need to focus consciously on it, you just do it. I guess it would be possible to fix/improve a lot of things going one by one like that. I guess the fun could be had in seeing how you improve and how you improve your timings/SCV counts, rather than focusing on your win/lose game results. Besides, training a new thing gives you a good excuse for losing.
