EPTLets say toss does some kind of 6-7gate push at 8.20 , you would need to start upgrading and have 150gas at about 6min. Which would be pretty steep to incorporate into normal expand builds. Later on in the game only terran is the aggressive, while the other races are defending, it would still be pretty useless. Ofcourse after getting 3-3, continue upgrading building armor and range is good idea, since you will have extra gas anyway, and you will spread out your bases, so having better building defence is always welcome.
Terran building armor vs Infantry armor - Page 2
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Dephy
Lithuania163 Posts
Lets say toss does some kind of 6-7gate push at 8.20 , you would need to start upgrading and have 150gas at about 6min. Which would be pretty steep to incorporate into normal expand builds. Later on in the game only terran is the aggressive, while the other races are defending, it would still be pretty useless. Ofcourse after getting 3-3, continue upgrading building armor and range is good idea, since you will have extra gas anyway, and you will spread out your bases, so having better building defence is always welcome. | ||
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MustardJ
New Zealand11 Posts
For replay list: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6079712501 | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On July 22 2012 21:34 GinDo wrote: Personally I would like to see all those Defensive upgrades be dropped to 50/50 and with a fast upgrade time. But, 100/100 for each + the Ebay time is simply 2 much. If you want to beat a Zerg these days you have to be hyper aggressive, which means Infantry armor over Building. What? Its fine man, just leave it until after your 3/3 infantry is done. | ||
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Areon
United States273 Posts
On July 22 2012 01:45 Saechiis wrote: You're overthinking this imo, you want to attack Zerg, not turtle up behind armor upgraded buildings. The scenario's where you don't die to a Zerg push because you have building armor are so scarce compared to your use of marines offensively and defensively. It's not worth getting building armor over infantry armor unless you're already on +3. This. While it's a cute idea for defense, it's not practical and you aren't going to be at optimal strength at normal timings for pushes. Maybe as a strat with a fast third as PF but even then, you're just gimping yourself. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
Example: +1 melee for 100 zerglinge, + 1 range for 3 roachen So if you ever build more bunkers, rax, pf then marines let me know. EDIT: Not that i don´t like your idea. It would be really fun if that would work. Nontheless these upgrades have their place. Armor is really good in the lategame. Most people even doesn´t know that nanosteel frame gives your normal CC and PF 5 extra cargo space  | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Building armour is something you get late late late game when you've already got 3/3 infantry and you have more money then you know what to do with. You can never finish it in time to prevent an aggressive zerg timing from hitting, even if you did if you are being attacked by banes it's completely pointless, and +1 armour is more important in more situations, like when you're actually attacking. You've spent a lot of time writing and thinking about something that seems completely pointless. | ||
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The_Sanjuro
United States41 Posts
Zealot vs Bunker B dies in 34.8 seconds Zealot vs +2 Bunker B dies in 48 seconds Zealot vs Marine M dies in 3.6 seconds Zealot vs +1 Marine M dies in 4.8 seconds Stalker vs Bunker B dies in 44.64 seconds Stalker vs +2 Bunker B dies in 53.28 seconds Stalker vs Marine M dies in 7.2 seconds Stalker vs +1 Marine M dies in 7.2 seconds Sentry vs Bunker B dies in 80 seconds Sentry vs +2 Bunker B dies in 134 seconds Sentry vs Marine M dies in 8 seconds Sentry vs +1 Marine M dies in 9 seconds I know that this is not realistic to say 1 Marine vs 1 of anything, but think about when your ball meets another ball(lol), you don't focus fire on 1 unit(most of the time) you let your units attack you split them or whatever, but if you look it a lot of the time is a 1 on 1 engagement for individual units. Armor in my option should be taken first before attack just because your units live longer giving you more time to attack and stay alive. Combat shields and +1 armor timing is pretty beast you should try it. I don't know if there is a build for it, but ill look and if not I will try and come up with one, sounds like it would be pretty effective...maybe. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On July 22 2012 22:10 The_Sanjuro wrote: WOW! Man this got more attention than I ever thought it would. First of all sorry for the spelling errors, wrote it in notepad and when I pasted it in forgot to spell check it so sorry for that. Second, you all bring up good points about building armor slowing down your bio upgrades...why just just drop a 3rd eBay and upgrade armor while +1 is going on? Then once that is done you can wait and upgrade high sec auto track, then your upgrade times won't be sacrificed and you can get the upgrade in place of 1 tank, or a couple of bio units? As for against protoss I think that this building armor should come early and even before +1 attack since if you early expanding, you going to need extra defense. And thanks to whoever called me math wiz! I try lol. But I did it for zerg just because that's who I picked. Protoss would be even better and I will just make a couple of calculations and see what a zealot, stalker, sentry would do versus +2 building armor. Zealot vs Bunker B dies in 34.8 seconds Zealot vs +2 Bunker B dies in 48 seconds Zealot vs Marine M dies in 3.6 seconds Zealot vs +1 Marine M dies in 4.8 seconds Stalker vs Bunker B dies in 44.64 seconds Stalker vs +2 Bunker B dies in 53.28 seconds Stalker vs Marine M dies in 7.2 seconds Stalker vs +1 Marine M dies in 7.2 seconds Sentry vs Bunker B dies in 80 seconds Sentry vs +2 Bunker B dies in 134 seconds Sentry vs Marine M dies in 8 seconds Sentry vs +1 Marine M dies in 9 seconds I know that this is not realistic to say 1 Marine vs 1 of anything, but think about when your ball meets another ball(lol), you don't focus fire on 1 unit(most of the time) you let your units attack you split them or whatever, but if you look it a lot of the time is a 1 on 1 engagement for individual units. Armor in my option should be taken first before attack just because your units live longer giving you more time to attack and stay alive. Combat shields and +1 armor timing is pretty beast you should try it. I don't know if there is a build for it, but ill look and if not I will try and come up with one, sounds like it would be pretty effective...maybe. Wheres the Marine vs Marine comparison!?!?!?! | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
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Saraf
United States160 Posts
On July 22 2012 22:16 Forikorder wrote: never understood why Terran never get building armour VS Zerg and let mutas fly around picking things off so easily Either Zerg went two-base mutas (in which case a few turrets + a handful of marines is enough unless they're going mass mass mutas) and Terran is still working on infantry upgrades, or they forgot it exists. +building armor and +turret range are amazing against mutalisks and Terrans should get it against a mutalisk strategy, just not at the expense of upgrades for their marines. | ||
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Second, you all bring up good points about building armor slowing down your bio upgrades...why just just drop a 3rd eBay and upgrade armor while +1 is going on? Or just make 1-3 more bunkers since that's how much it'll cost anyway not even counting gas. You're assuming terrans have enough money to just throw down all these additional things well we don't. It's inefficient, expensive and doesn't help you in situations where the opponent is not attacking. Consider these 2 completely realistic scenarios: 1) scenario 1, tvp 1 gate FE vs 1 rax FE. I make a bunker and keep a few dudes around the map in case he does a gateway timing. I notice a probe move up, few protoss units heading towards me and a pylon about to start. I can make 2-3 more bunkers and deflect his gateway timing with ease and on time. Not how I've not even finished +1 weapons with my lone ebay at this point. Anyone who plays TvP at a mid masters or above level can tell you this is what a tvp early to midgame looks like. If the protoss doesn't do anything aggressive that's fine because I only made 1 bunker which I need to make anyway unless I like being pulled apart by stalkers early game. 2) scenario 2. 1 gate fe vs 1 rax FE. I make an ebay, and instead of getting +1 weapons or +1 armour I start building armour. The protoss does not do a gateway timing. I look like a fucking moron when I try to be aggressive with my +2 building upgrade instead of something useful. TvZ: scenario: 1) Zerg does a ling bane roach timing that hits. banelings laugh themselves stupid at my +2 bunkers as they still kill them just as easily. Getting it midgame instead of +2 armour from the ebay to help deal with mutas is maybe an option but a better one is just more turrets or a few marines patrolling. You don't need that many and you really don't need to be delaying upgrades. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
You cherrypicked some ludicrous scenario where you have tons of bunkers and the zerg is busting you with lings only for some reason. Yes in that scenario the building armor would do more... In any realistic scenario infantry armor is far better though. Infantry armor allows you to be aggresive as well. Even in defense the infantry armor is better as the zerg will use banes to bust the buildings and clean up with lings and/or you won't be having many bunkers. If you have 2 bunkers but 30ish marines that building armor suddenly isn't that great compared to infantry armor. Finally infantry armor level 1 also means your lvl 2 and lvl 3 armor will be up quicker which is VERY important, building armor is something you get lategame when your ebay's are otherwise idle and even then it's not even mandatory. So either the topic starter is a complete idiot or a troll, i hope for him it's the latter. | ||
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The_Sanjuro
United States41 Posts
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
That being said - I usually get 1-1 very fast against zerg and sometimes I straight up forget to build an armory. In that dumbass mistake, I would take this into consideration. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 23 2012 01:18 MrRicewife wrote: The problem I see is that you would need to build a 3rd eng bay for that... There is no way in hell I'm going to spend my money and time on a building upgrade when my guys can get bigger. That being said - I usually get 1-1 very fast against zerg and sometimes I straight up forget to build an armory. In that dumbass mistake, I would take this into consideration. Alternatively you could just build one of the engi bays earlier. All that said, I take it you don't play mech. I've been thinking a lot about the new form of mech-marine hybrid style, and the building upgrade actually kind of makes a lot of sense in that context. Since you want to slow-push anyway, a la mech style siege tank/thor lines, why not bring a bunch of SCVs for auto-repairing and build a ton of bunkers while you're at it? You can sell them as your line moves forward, you don't need to get armor upgrades for marines inside bunkers, and missile turrets everywhere will plug the main deficiency in a mech army, mobility. Hell, for the cost of a missile turret you could even put a bunker with a single marine in it next to your mineral line, a full bunker for the cost of 2 missile turrets. Dunno. Mech/marine hybrid play is pretty hard to begin with (mostly because no stim or medivacs until mid to late game), but methinks this might actually make it somewhat easier. You would just have to be stay low on barracks early on to get the requisite numbers of bunkers and orbitals necessary for mid-game mech play. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
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Fubi
2228 Posts
On July 23 2012 01:13 The_Sanjuro wrote: Nope just an idiot, thanks. No I am not trying to throw this as a build order win, if you have a build that requires a certain timing then by all means don't get building armor upgrade. I have found from playing games that it doesn't really cut into your times a lot if after you finish 1/1 to get it while your build your armory. From playing versus all races having that extra armor can be the difference in gate way bust from 8 gate, extra supply depos going down from medivac drops, turrets getting 1 shot by muta ball, banshee killing a reactor, building armor helps a lot. Maybe not early on for a 8 minute win, but when you start getting up extra bases and putting up turrets it is worth every mineral to upgrade it. I am just trying to get some more things we as Terran can do to stop being the worst race as of right now. Every Terran build should revolve around a timing or early pressure though. If you're letting any decent Zerg sit back and macro, you'll die no matter what. You also have to realize, delaying +1 armor also means you're delaying your +2 and +3 armor later on in the game as well. | ||
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