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What's with you guys and your 15 point cycles. That's kinda missing the point, I thought something short and sweet was the entire purpose of it because it's something you repeat many times a minute. As in:
Minimap (check for drops/movement)
Money (spending)
Supply (never get blocked)
-and that's it O_o
Isn't going up to 7 or 8 points kind of pointless because you'll be interrupted often; as it takes more than 2 second go through?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the point was to have something so quick you squeeze it in between everything else and can be done completely every time in a matter of seconds. Keeps you on top of your basic needs, and keeps you from falling off plan or getting blocked.
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For me, I have a cycle, but it is insifficient to keep me on my toes. Having a more elaborate cycle that covered by bases better; something I can practice just the raw mechanical speed of the pattern... could enable a longer cycle. I wasn't looking for 15-step cycles.. but I think the 6-step stuff isn't too bad. It should be short enough I could get it down to 2-3 seconds or so with practice, and then go back to my army control. That's my thought process anyway.
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On July 03 2012 02:56 Fairchild wrote:
What's with you guys and your 15 point cycles. That's kinda missing the point, I thought something short and sweet was the entire purpose of it because it's something you repeat many times a minute. As in:
Minimap (check for drops/movement)
Money (spending)
Supply (never get blocked)
-and that's it O_o
Isn't going up to 7 or 8 points kind of pointless because you'll be interrupted often; as it takes more than 2 second go through?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the point was to have something so quick you squeeze it in between everything else and can be done completely every time in a matter of seconds. Keeps you on top of your basic needs, and keeps you from falling off plan or getting blocked.
This is how I started my cycle yes, and slowly... very slowly I added things. I'm able to break off mid-sequence if my attention is required elsewhere, that's why it has a particular order.
I don't know if injects should come before production but I feel I can do both and when it comes down to it I'd rather have my injects a second late than my units a second late more often than not. (production obv happens more than injects)
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On July 02 2012 02:00 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 01:44 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Interesting. I don't follow a specific cycle, I just do whatever is almost done (queue units if they're almost done, get ready to continue upgrades, etc) Lol same here. I just keep in mind what i want to do and just do it.
same here, i dont have cycles, i dont even use exact builds or watch the clock too much.
i just do whatever i feel has to be done, i feel when a certain timing might come and i somehow always build probes when the last one is at 90ish%, same with cronoboost @ upgrades. i almost everytime hit the right time when the last boost expired.
like its obviously not nearly as sick as stephanos spider sense, but i do pretty well with it.
i litterlally dont even know at what supply to add gates and stuff, i just do it :D
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On July 03 2012 02:56 Fairchild wrote:
What's with you guys and your 15 point cycles. That's kinda missing the point, I thought something short and sweet was the entire purpose of it because it's something you repeat many times a minute.
Agreed.
Personally as a former zerg player, I think having some event to trigger a chain of actions is more beneficial, this way you can have even less 'steps' on your checklist. Also, getting used to things like: - Everytime you make an overlord, send it somewhere on the map
- Check supply when making units
- Having your build orders timed by gas (100gas, take lingspeed.. 100gas, lair...)
about how a specific event triggers a chain of actions. Like build orders, you can have timings like: as I begin my Lair, add 2 more gas and a roach warren etc.. So, on checklist I have, lets say:- Are the injections done?
- Do I have larva?
- How is my map vision?
..And everytime I have to inject, I execute following list of things:- Inject larvae
- Spread creep
- Make overlords
- Spend larva
Basically I just check if injections are compleated, if yes, execute the other list, if no, do other stuff. I've got used to check my money constantly, so executing gas timed builds is rather easy.
This has worked quite well for me, practically perfect injections, no supply blocks, all larva spent.
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It's interesting to me to see such detailed cycles in terms of having a lot of bullet points. I tried to eliminate bullet points by compounding when I check things on my cycle.
I do my cycles between things that I've called "key actions." A key action is basically any action that doesn't require immediate babysitting on your units such as moving your army a long distance across the map, or the last order you think you need to order in a fight.
My cycle is pretty short though, it's just
1) tap production
- if something needs building then build it/energy for mules drop them
- if something was built check supply/money
- if supply is needed to maintain production add depots
- if after a big macro cycle (including depots) your money is high add production
2) go about your business
All of this is assuming that you're watching the minimap whenever you're not checking the top right corner or placing something that you need to focus on. It's not possible to literally multitask, but this is the next best thing I've been able to find.
You would assume that because I check my supply after I build units that I tend to get supply blocked often, but it's actually because I always check while building my units I have a good sense of when I need to add depots based on my current production rate. My cycle feels weird after reading all of these though...
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On July 03 2012 22:17 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 02:00 HeeroFX wrote:On July 02 2012 01:44 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Interesting. I don't follow a specific cycle, I just do whatever is almost done (queue units if they're almost done, get ready to continue upgrades, etc) Lol same here. I just keep in mind what i want to do and just do it. same here, i dont have cycles, i dont even use exact builds or watch the clock too much. i just do whatever i feel has to be done, i feel when a certain timing might come and i somehow always build probes when the last one is at 90ish%, same with cronoboost @ upgrades. i almost everytime hit the right time when the last boost expired. like its obviously not nearly as sick as stephanos spider sense, but i do pretty well with it. i litterlally dont even know at what supply to add gates and stuff, i just do it :D
I don't think that's a good thing. There are reasons people follow builds and timings because they get you the most stuff in the shortest time. Pros may not follow build orders because they create them, they just understand the game and know what to do when. When your in a close back and forth battle and a couple seconds with your eyes off your army means it could evaporate, you don't really wanna have to think about what needs to be done. You wanna just do it, and do it as fast as possible which is why macro cycles exist.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:34 partycat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 02:56 Fairchild wrote:
What's with you guys and your 15 point cycles. That's kinda missing the point, I thought something short and sweet was the entire purpose of it because it's something you repeat many times a minute. Agreed. Personally as a former zerg player, I think having some event to trigger a chain of actions is more beneficial, this way you can have even less 'steps' on your checklist. Also, getting used to things like: - Everytime you make an overlord, send it somewhere on the map
- Check supply when making units
- Having your build orders timed by gas (100gas, take lingspeed.. 100gas, lair...)
about how a specific event triggers a chain of actions. Like build orders, you can have timings like: as I begin my Lair, add 2 more gas and a roach warren etc.. So, on checklist I have, lets say: - Are the injections done?
- Do I have larva?
- How is my map vision?
.. And everytime I have to inject, I execute following list of things:- Inject larvae
- Spread creep
- Make overlords
- Spend larva
Basically I just check if injections are compleated, if yes, execute the other list, if no, do other stuff. I've got used to check my money constantly, so executing gas timed builds is rather easy. This has worked quite well for me, practically perfect injections, no supply blocks, all larva spent.
Seems to me like a perfectly good macro cycle. When I used to play zerg, this is all I would do: inject, spread creep, make overlords, spend remaining larva. Other than that, I just had the general rule of watching my minimap while making buildings/injecting and watching my minimap while making units. It's a nice macro cycle that times itself.
Terran and protoss, on the other hand, have much more difficult cycles to follow. For example, terran has to continually make SCVs that take 17 seconds, marines that take 25 seconds, other units that take X seconds, drop MULEs every 90 seconds, build supply depots every 30 seconds, and make sure they hit upgrades as soon as they finish. All of this is mind-boggleingly impossible to keep straight in your head. Therefore, terran has fairly complex macro cycles so they can continually check up on these things and make sure they nail the timings without queuing a lot of stuff up.
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My cycle:
* Macro
* Harrass
:-)
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i want to establish my own macro cycle
this is my cycle until now:
gathering information about supply / ressources
check supply (if needed make depots)
check orbitals/CC/PF to make SCVS
check production on army units
check upgrades
---------------
build production structures
build CC / turning insisting ones into OC
check energy of CC's Scan/Mule
check mineral+gas saturation
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check Rallye point
rebind army
Whats are your thoughts about this one?
At what steps of my cycle i should watch at the minimap?
Should i build my production facilities after the supply depot step or nearly at the end?
When should i check my energy for scan/mules?
Do i miss any important steps?
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High master EU Z here.
IMO a good macro cycle should be really dynamic; prioritizing whatever is most important at that moment, rather than having a static list of things you constantly check.
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To be honest, I think this actually isnt that great. I dont like it when people force themselves to follow very specific things rather than focus on feeling out the game. You are playing a list, not the game itself when you do this. When soldiers are out in the battle field, they dont "check a list" and follow the "list". Nobody is going to give you that luxury, and especially as terran, you cant give yourself that luxury either.
I really really hate how the old TL ideal on sc2 of "macro" has become so entrenched into many peoples minds that they prioritize macro over everything and forget that macro is only a small part of the game.
Back then, and probably still now, "Macro better" has been the "plaster answer" that became almost the same as how religions will say "God is the answer", and lets face it, its rather backwards.
From a terran perspective, it is a very horrible ideal if his priority is to "macro". He cannot sit there and macro and hope to win against protoss and zerg. He cannot sit there and macro and not die to multiple drops from terran. There are simply too many things to do for any terran to simply sit there and macro even when he is meching. He will need to constantly retake map control, be aggressive with a squad at all times and possibly still do multi-pronged attacks.
If he is meching, he is constantly scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. He is moving and unsieging his very expensive and hard to replace fragile as fuck army to protect his very fragile as fuck bases. If he had simply focused on macro, he would lose to a sudden unforseen drop. He would lose to a huge ass army rolling him over. He would lose to an unending swarm of enemy units until he dies.
If he is a good player, then he would prioritize map control, attacking and being aggresive. His priority would be to control the game, and if he comes back from a battle and realizes he has no army at his rally point, and he dies from the resulting counter attack, he will remember the lesson and the rage, and each time he does a drop, engaging the enemy, or is defending a drop, he will remember the pain of losing because of no backup army, and he will macro like his life depended on it during engagement each time he can find an opening to do so.
If he had simply chose to prioritize macro, and manages to make it through the lower leagues simply with a big army, he will then realize that in the upper leagues, his big army does squat, and he'll have to relearn the entire fucking race over again in the lower leagues, because he does not have the habit of being aggressive, or controlling the game, and he certainly doesnt have the habit of macroing while doing these things.
On July 07 2012 04:10 saaaa wrote:
At what steps of my cycle i should watch at the minimap?
Should i build my production facilities after the supply depot step or nearly at the end?
When should i check my energy for scan/mules?
Do i miss any important steps?
1. You should always be glancing at the minimap. Including it into a "step" is going to make you really bad at map awareness. You have to be aware of it all the time.
2. Production facilities vs making more ccs.
This is a rather personal topic and I will answer it in a very personal matter, so take it with a grain of salt - In the current maps, most of the time, you will not be easily expanding past 3 bases, and as terran, sometimes it is very hard to get past 2 bases already. If it is a two base build, there should be a build order that is followed to the detail, and this question should not be needed.
However after your 3rd base is running, when I start to pool money, even tho I am not supply blocked or limited, my scv is still constant, my army production is relatively constant, then I throw down extra production facilities. Say on 2 base you have 3-4 rax, 1 starport. On 3 base, since you will be maintaining pressure, your macro will slip a bit, so after the third base I would like to immediately pop it up to 6 rax before the 3rd base has finished running, and add 7 and 8, plus 1 or 2 more starports if macro is still slipping hard.
After that, if I see still money being pooled (by this time itll easily pool to 800-1000), Ill throw down expansions.
3. You should check energy each time you make an scv. Its a very nice habit to have.
On July 07 2012 04:28 Crypdos wrote:
High master EU Z here.
IMO a good macro cycle should be really dynamic; prioritizing whatever is most important at that moment, rather than having a static list of things you constantly check.
Exactly. I believe that there shouldnt be a macro cycle anyone needs to discuss about, but simply as a personal skill that you develop as you understand the game and your own playstyle more, and that the "macro cycle", should it even exist, would be different in each game you play.
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On July 07 2012 04:31 padfoota wrote:To be honest, I think this actually isnt that great. I dont like it when people force themselves to follow very specific things rather than focus on feeling out the game. You are playing a list, not the game itself when you do this. When soldiers are out in the battle field, they dont "check a list" and follow the "list". Nobody is going to give you that luxury, and especially as terran, you cant give yourself that luxury either. I really really hate how the old TL ideal on sc2 of "macro" has become so entrenched into many peoples minds that they prioritize macro over everything and forget that macro is only a small part of the game. Back then, and probably still now, "Macro better" has been the "plaster answer" that became almost the same as how religions will say "God is the answer", and lets face it, its rather backwards. From a terran perspective, it is a very horrible ideal if his priority is to "macro". He cannot sit there and macro and hope to win against protoss and zerg. He cannot sit there and macro and not die to multiple drops from terran. There are simply too many things to do for any terran to simply sit there and macro even when he is meching. He will need to constantly retake map control, be aggressive with a squad at all times and possibly still do multi-pronged attacks. If he is meching, he is constantly scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. He is moving and unsieging his very expensive and hard to replace fragile as fuck army to protect his very fragile as fuck bases. If he had simply focused on macro, he would lose to a sudden unforseen drop. He would lose to a huge ass army rolling him over. He would lose to an unending swarm of enemy units until he dies. If he is a good player, then he would prioritize map control, attacking and being aggresive. His priority would be to control the game, and if he comes back from a battle and realizes he has no army at his rally point, and he dies from the resulting counter attack, he will remember the lesson and the rage, and each time he does a drop, engaging the enemy, or is defending a drop, he will remember the pain of losing because of no backup army, and he will macro like his life depended on it during engagement each time he can find an opening to do so. If he had simply chose to prioritize macro, and manages to make it through the lower leagues simply with a big army, he will then realize that in the upper leagues, his big army does squat, and he'll have to relearn the entire fucking race over again in the lower leagues, because he does not have the habit of being aggressive, or controlling the game, and he certainly doesnt have the habit of macroing while doing these things. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:10 saaaa wrote:
At what steps of my cycle i should watch at the minimap?
Should i build my production facilities after the supply depot step or nearly at the end?
When should i check my energy for scan/mules?
Do i miss any important steps? 1. You should always be glancing at the minimap. Including it into a "step" is going to make you really bad at map awareness. You have to be aware of it all the time. 2. Production facilities vs making more ccs. This is a rather personal topic and I will answer it in a very personal matter, so take it with a grain of salt - In the current maps, most of the time, you will not be easily expanding past 3 bases, and as terran, sometimes it is very hard to get past 2 bases already. If it is a two base build, there should be a build order that is followed to the detail, and this question should not be needed. However after your 3rd base is running, when I start to pool money, even tho I am not supply blocked or limited, my scv is still constant, my army production is relatively constant, then I throw down extra production facilities. Say on 2 base you have 3-4 rax, 1 starport. On 3 base, since you will be maintaining pressure, your macro will slip a bit, so after the third base I would like to immediately pop it up to 6 rax before the 3rd base has finished running, and add 7 and 8, plus 1 or 2 more starports if macro is still slipping hard. After that, if I see still money being pooled (by this time itll easily pool to 800-1000), Ill throw down expansions. 3. You should check energy each time you make an scv. Its a very nice habit to have. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:28 Crypdos wrote:
High master EU Z here.
IMO a good macro cycle should be really dynamic; prioritizing whatever is most important at that moment, rather than having a static list of things you constantly check.
Exactly. I believe that there shouldnt be a macro cycle anyone needs to discuss about, but simply as a personal skill that you develop as you understand the game and your own playstyle more, and that the "macro cycle", should it even exist, would be different in each game you play.
As for mine:
Production (watch minimap)
Overlords (watch minimap)
Army movement
Injects (watch minimap)
Tech/gas etc
Creep
Overlord spread (watch minimap)
Saturation check
with watch at the minimap i mean more like at what actions i should at the map minimap like this macro cycle of a zerg. I really like your idea with to check engery if i build a SCV.
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On July 07 2012 07:35 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:31 padfoota wrote:To be honest, I think this actually isnt that great. I dont like it when people force themselves to follow very specific things rather than focus on feeling out the game. You are playing a list, not the game itself when you do this. When soldiers are out in the battle field, they dont "check a list" and follow the "list". Nobody is going to give you that luxury, and especially as terran, you cant give yourself that luxury either. I really really hate how the old TL ideal on sc2 of "macro" has become so entrenched into many peoples minds that they prioritize macro over everything and forget that macro is only a small part of the game. Back then, and probably still now, "Macro better" has been the "plaster answer" that became almost the same as how religions will say "God is the answer", and lets face it, its rather backwards. From a terran perspective, it is a very horrible ideal if his priority is to "macro". He cannot sit there and macro and hope to win against protoss and zerg. He cannot sit there and macro and not die to multiple drops from terran. There are simply too many things to do for any terran to simply sit there and macro even when he is meching. He will need to constantly retake map control, be aggressive with a squad at all times and possibly still do multi-pronged attacks. If he is meching, he is constantly scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. He is moving and unsieging his very expensive and hard to replace fragile as fuck army to protect his very fragile as fuck bases. If he had simply focused on macro, he would lose to a sudden unforseen drop. He would lose to a huge ass army rolling him over. He would lose to an unending swarm of enemy units until he dies. If he is a good player, then he would prioritize map control, attacking and being aggresive. His priority would be to control the game, and if he comes back from a battle and realizes he has no army at his rally point, and he dies from the resulting counter attack, he will remember the lesson and the rage, and each time he does a drop, engaging the enemy, or is defending a drop, he will remember the pain of losing because of no backup army, and he will macro like his life depended on it during engagement each time he can find an opening to do so. If he had simply chose to prioritize macro, and manages to make it through the lower leagues simply with a big army, he will then realize that in the upper leagues, his big army does squat, and he'll have to relearn the entire fucking race over again in the lower leagues, because he does not have the habit of being aggressive, or controlling the game, and he certainly doesnt have the habit of macroing while doing these things. On July 07 2012 04:10 saaaa wrote:
At what steps of my cycle i should watch at the minimap?
Should i build my production facilities after the supply depot step or nearly at the end?
When should i check my energy for scan/mules?
Do i miss any important steps? 1. You should always be glancing at the minimap. Including it into a "step" is going to make you really bad at map awareness. You have to be aware of it all the time. 2. Production facilities vs making more ccs. This is a rather personal topic and I will answer it in a very personal matter, so take it with a grain of salt - In the current maps, most of the time, you will not be easily expanding past 3 bases, and as terran, sometimes it is very hard to get past 2 bases already. If it is a two base build, there should be a build order that is followed to the detail, and this question should not be needed. However after your 3rd base is running, when I start to pool money, even tho I am not supply blocked or limited, my scv is still constant, my army production is relatively constant, then I throw down extra production facilities. Say on 2 base you have 3-4 rax, 1 starport. On 3 base, since you will be maintaining pressure, your macro will slip a bit, so after the third base I would like to immediately pop it up to 6 rax before the 3rd base has finished running, and add 7 and 8, plus 1 or 2 more starports if macro is still slipping hard. After that, if I see still money being pooled (by this time itll easily pool to 800-1000), Ill throw down expansions. 3. You should check energy each time you make an scv. Its a very nice habit to have. On July 07 2012 04:28 Crypdos wrote:
High master EU Z here.
IMO a good macro cycle should be really dynamic; prioritizing whatever is most important at that moment, rather than having a static list of things you constantly check.
Exactly. I believe that there shouldnt be a macro cycle anyone needs to discuss about, but simply as a personal skill that you develop as you understand the game and your own playstyle more, and that the "macro cycle", should it even exist, would be different in each game you play. As for mine: Production (watch minimap) Overlords (watch minimap) Army movement Injects (watch minimap) Tech/gas etc Creep Overlord spread (watch minimap) Saturation check with watch at the minimap i mean more like at what actions i should at the map minimap like this macro cycle of a zerg. I really like your idea with to check engery if i build a SCV.
Tbh, personally I dont have a set "watch minimap" phase. I guess I just glance at it as much as possible when Im not macroing or microing. Even when I am, I still flick my eyes towards it even during battle. Its just something you should do as often as possible, even when you are focused on something else IE injecting, spreading, the minimap should always be at the corner of your eye in case something red is moving.
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Between the thread and some PMs induced by the thread, I've got an update for my Zerg macro cycle: T and P still to come. I can't take credit for this; the information was generated by others.
For starters, I believe a concrete cycle is useful. The idea is to get your macro done quickly, at regular and useful intervals, so you can get back to making game decisions. If it requires a decision, it doesn't belong here.
- Check Larva Count; spend it
- Check Queen Energy; spend it
- Camera back to army; not needed at base anymore
- Check Resources
- Check Supply; build overlords
- Check Minimap (explicit; it is assumed you are always watching minimap a little)
- Perform decision making actions (react to resource count with upgrades, buildings, etc)
That's it. Step through this every 10 seconds, and try to complete it in under 3 seconds, and you'll find you have a ton of time to actually play the game. In theory.
Thoughts?
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EPT
