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Greetings all from the swarm,
I'm creating this thread where zerg players can post good replays of Nydus worm usage, especially for 1v1 and 2v2s.
While it seems we might have to wait for HoTS before more interesting Nydus worm play , it seemed like a good idea for players to discuss Nydus worm usage in WoL.
I've heard many players say the all too obvious - that its expensive, costly, slow to unload, dies easily etc.. but all too often players try to sneak nydus worms into enemy bases without a zerg drop going off first to back up a massive attack and rally.
Obviously, there can be many uses for the instantaneous transport, and can be particularly useful for defense and offense, especially from mid-game up, and players who have several entry / exit networks can really change the way the swarm wins games. I don't really think for its benefits its expensive, just that someone has to come along and show us how its done.
For me personally, when late-game terran has very often superior positioning with tanks at the front lines and at 3rd / 4th base. I would consider a large zerg drops with a pre-loaded nydus worm with Ultras. This way, I don't waste overload drop space or risk losing an ultralisk loaded overlord.. also if the attack wave is coming to an end, its a quick exit for gas heavy units rather than losing all my ultras and infestors.
The ideal solution would be to exit from a nydus network where-ever the enemy is out of position and take down bases. Nydus positions can also be quick spreading points for creep and normally sending a drone or two to build some spines and spores can be pretty useful.
Its probably not a great idea to have a build order just for nydus play, but it maybe useful against P with FFE, a two base play with a possibly advantageous timing?
So just put your best practices here! who knows, maybe it can help.
~
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Nydus is one of my favorite things about playing zerg.
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its too easy to spot and any unit can kill it before it unloads. its also not a secret cause of the noise it makes. its a stupid building.
i would rather float an army in OVs to a base and keep ralleying in more units and drop them continuously. this way you can drop them on setries/tanks and even multi prong attack.
if the nydus wasnt able to get killed by a handfull of workers before it pops then it can be used.
blizz is trying to make the nydus more interesting but they need to find out if it isnt useful it wont be used.
the most use i can think of is on a large map like daybreak you can place a nydus just out of range of the third or between the 3rd and 2nd and send through a couple of lings/blings to kill workers. but still. drops are better for this.
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I think a big problem with the nydus worm is people think it has to be used for sneaky plays. Then they realize it's loud and slow to unload, and get confused.
I really like what I've seen TLO and Spanishiwa do with it, though. Spanishiwa uses it to help an army escape (not necessarily after having arrived via nydus), and then show up somewhere else by queueing worms and loading/unloading. TLO uses them as part of staging areas with overlords, creep, queens etc. He also rallies hatcheries to them, which can be a lot of fun.
Obviously the viability of nydus is really tiny (mostly for hydra pushes against stargate openers and stuff like that), but nothing says you have to try to put it in "that one unseen corner of the enemy base" every time - there's a lot more you can do with it.
Personally, I use them for the creep spread and 'forward base' idea. I really only ever consider them if I start to bank a LOT of money and can't figure out a clean way to break someone (say a turtling protoss). It's definitely a novelty mechanic, though..I'm excited to see what they do with it in the expansion as well.
In case anyone important is reading, what I'd like to see is more mechanics for loading/unloading. It's clunky as hell to find all the infestors in it and click them. I don't want to unload a bunch of lings/roaches to get to the infestors without focusing on my worm (like a warp-in at a pylon)...surely the units could be selected by their original hotkeys while inside, or something like that? Make the 'unload' an ability on the units inside rather than the worm itself. It wouldn't make the nydus worm better but it would remove a lot of the frustration that comes from the UI.
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I play top platinum 2v2 for about one hour a day with a consistent partner, and I've tried to make Nydus work multiple times, especially on the more awful maps like Discord 4 and High Orbit. The mobility is great, but I've died with it multiple times. I've also been hit by other zergs using Nydus, and some of them did decent damage, but it was never as deadly as mutas. Mutas and colossus are the defining units of 2v2 play.
It could be that I just suck with Nydus, but I found that zerg units already have better mobility than others and I've never succeeded with either drops or Nydus play. Ling/bling/muta or speed roach are good units and can get around the map easily without having to worry about the Nydus getting sniped. The Nydus network needs a lot of gas and building the worms is a dice throw if the opponents find them. You can use them as basic transport, but the micro is even more intense than muta micro if you want the units to survive. Plus, it's really hard to retreat effectively with a Nydus worm, unlike Mutas where you can easily get in, do some damage or not, and then just get out with minimal losses.
Plus in team games I never have enough gas to have air units and nydus worms, and with no corruptors or mutas to engage colossus and tanks, things can get ugly. If there's a zerg involved, then they probably have mutas, and if I don't have mutas or infestors, it's easy to lose. Hydras and nydus are a truly awful combination. The nydus is available before the spire, which makes it a tempting tech choice, but it's mostly usable for "flood their shared main" style attacks. With all the shared base mains in the 2v2 map pool today (Scorched is the only exception) then that usually means my harass team is fighting 2v1 against their primary armies unless I somehow catch them when they're out to lunch. You could Nydus to deny expands but speedlings are faster, more flexible, and don't announce their presence.
Ultras were something I really wanted to make work with nydus. But if I already teched to ultras, I probably have 3/3 on melee and the nydus is a nice touch, but the extra mobility isn't a game changer. The upgrades and splash I have on my baneling/ultra roving nuke ball are what will probably win the game.
Like many other things, the maps for 2v2 need to be about twice as large and teams need to be able to hold thirds without full map control for Nydus to start being useful. Until then map control will still be king in 2v2, which means muta and speedlings.
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I actually have been having great success with a Nydus play as a response to Forge expand I made up a few months back. It goes something like this:
14 pool
16 hatch (bring 2 or 3 drones to try and deny the pylon. If it goes down, have 3 or 4 drones attacking it to force a cancel, you need a hatch ASAP)
Drone until the second hatch is placed.
When the pool finishes, make a queen and 2-4 lings to finish off pylon, hold tower(s), and deny further scouts
@ hatchery start-2 extractors
Continue droning
@100 gas-Lair
Next 100 gas-Metabolic boost
Make sure to drone as much as you can to saturate the main minerals, gas, and any excess drones go to natural
@Lair- Nydus network (You may want to use Overlord creep to hide the building, just make sure it's still close to your hatcheries)
@100 gas-send either 3 or 6 drones mining gas in main to your natural (personal preference)
Begin zergling production.
If you don't already have an overlord in position, morph an overseer (and shame on you)
When the Nydus canal is finished, begin immediately spawning a worm (Hint: If he has vision in the edge of his base, an overseer can drop a changeling to give vision to the rest of his base, but don't start an overseer now, it might be too late)
Make sure to place the worm in a spot with as little available surface area as possible, probes counter buildings (apparently)
As soon as the worm starts, move the overlord, preferably to another possible nydus spawn point.
Once the worm begins building, make a round of drones and begin whatever you intended to do next (tech up on 2 base, take a 3rd, etc.), and rally the worm to his mineral line. If done correctly, Metabolic boost will be ready before the worm surfaces.
If probes are pulled to attack the worm, click the worm and right click it, this resets the rally. Even if only 5-6 zerglings get out, they can sometimes kill off the probes fast enough (no rally=auto attack) to save it. Should the worm die, any escaped lings can run and spawn a new one.
When the lings do erupt, immediately rush for the probes. If he runs to his natural, poke down to see if you can kill any outside of cannon range, but don't commit here.
If he built his cybernetics core in his main, unpower it immediately, then kill it off.
At this point, you want to unpower any production you can, and focus down the main nexus. If you get this far, retreat into the worm and run the lings to his 3rd, oftentimes protoss will try to sneak a new expo if they think the lings are in their main. If no expansion is building, leave some lings to deny the 3rd and head back for the worm. If he killed it off, then camp outside his front, you have him contained for fear of run-by.
What you saw in his main should decide your next move. Good judgement dictates that toss will most likely all-in soon, so have either roaches, hydralisks, or both ready if you see him push out. If he does not push out, rush for hive tech, take a 4th, and scout for hidden expansions.
At this point, you're so far ahead that most any standard play will win it for you. If you'd like, I can whip up some replays showing the execution on different maps.
GL HF
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I love making nydus worms, and with how many bases I line up, the cost is actually negligible. 100/100 for a completely safe and scalable harass? I love it! If you disagree that it's not safe, then you have really bad reactions or area awareness--try sending out a few lings to watch for the opponent's army before unloading half your army from a single worm. I am a high masters zerg switching into terran for the record, and when I'm not zerg, nydus worms scare me, because when done well, they'll always finish.
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My opinion of Nydus Worms is that they are really effective if executed properly and stealthily. However, if you put in all the minerals and gas to go for a Nydus Worm against let's say a toss and you see that they have pylons around their base, then you can't nydus their main and then you lost those minerals for teching to Nydus. I Nydus Worm myself sometimes but i think that it comes down to a bit of luck that the toss doesn't have pylons around his base.
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On May 23 2012 00:10 ncsix wrote:
While it seems we might have to wait for HoTS before more interesting Nydus worm play
Is there something I missed? What's this more interesting nydus worm play you speak of?
I almost never use the worm. If your opponent has good vision of his base (which mostly everyone platinum and higher does) it's incredibly hard to sneak in a nydus. That's probably why you don't see it very often in professional leagues/tournaments either.
I would love to have a viable use for it though...I have a Terran friend who shudders every time he hears the menacing scream as it pops out of the ground.
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People are just using the nydus wrong (mostly). You should definitely use it as 'warpin in of reinforcements' or escaping after a killing an expansion (e.i you are attacking 4th base of toss with roaches, deathball is coming to save expansion, you make nydus next to the nexus, you kill it and safely escape.
And when you have a large army, it's great to make 2/3 nydusses at the same place, so you can unload from all 2/3 so that your army doesn't get killed 1 unit at a time before it can do something. They can be pretty good in zvz vs muta play, you research over lord speed or use an overseer. If you know the muta's are patrolling your base, make a nydus out of your opponents vision near one of his expansions and quickly start raping stuff with your roaches.
You definitely shouldn't be using them as a stealthy surpise kind of thing. let's hope my opponent doesn't watch his minimap or doesn't have vision of his base *cross fingers*
And after watching a youtube video of using nyduss to mine with workers, I'm definitely going to try this out. On a relatively large map 4v4, it might work really well to use a nydus or two to another spawning location and mine minerals and gas. If you make 2/3 nyduss at those spots, it might even be as if you had another base :D
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The future of Nydus Worms is for BM, Manner Nyduses taking over the Manner Mule's job,
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On May 23 2012 10:15 lorkac wrote:
The future of Nydus Worms is for BM, Manner Nyduses taking over the Manner Mule's job,
I can see it now... a massive "GG" on the minimap spelled out in worms. Glorious.
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On May 23 2012 09:58 OGHalcyon wrote:
Is there something I missed? What's this more interesting nydus worm play you speak of?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4833874/Developer_Update_Heart_of_the_Swarm_Multiplayer-4_11_2012?page=2
Specifics:
We are also trying some additional abilities on the nydus network to allow you to spawn different types of nydus worms. The most interesting worms have been a worm that can spew creep across several screens to create a zerg assault highway, as well as a worm that attacks only enemy buildings, meant to be used as a ground-based zerg base raider.
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Right on, thanks a lot.
I have no doubt that nydus worms can be effective at lower leagues for either surprise attacks/reinforcing, but honestly, they aren't really a part of any professional Zerg's playbook. You have to wonder why not.
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I am only in plat but i have used nydus to great effect, generally against Toss but also against Terran.
I use it to do doom drops. Rush to OL drop. This works best with a big roach round so you drop into the main and at the same time build your nydus under the drop. This allows you to get in 'secretly' without the massive sound do damage and then, in a base trade scenario evac back to your main in nearly an instant. So you can do massive damage wihtout actually worrying about having to basetrade with a protoss who possibly has colossi.
It is ALSO amazing for if the protoss does come back to defend, you can do a massive drop, attack until the army is there, hopefully killing off some tech. I get two nyduses so that if he come back to defend i can chuck down one at each of his other expansions for fast guerilla attacks. He tries to chase you around the map meanwhile your army is just continuously melting away.
I don't have any replays because i just reinstalled SC2 and they were on my old install sorry. But i can confirm that this works in my platinum league =D
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I've said it forever that nydus worms are powerful as hell in Z lategame and barely anyone uses them. There are 3 lategame equivalents for every race - nydus worms for zerg, nukes for terran, and warp prisms for protoss. All 3 of those are essentially similar in nature.
I've used lots of nydus worms lategame ZvT when I offrace and ZvP with mass changelings, they're amazing. The only other person abusing them correctly that i've seen is fitzyhere.
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Norway839 Posts
Yeaaaap heres my contribution to the thread http://drop.sc/166236 ZvT vs mech on daybreak, repeated mass nydus networks usage and harass on a 100+ drone economy.
Nydus networks are good, but drop research is needed in order to truly break through a lot of defenses and make good use of nydus tech. People saying the nydus worm is weak, obviously yes, most people just forget that you are supposed to use it in combination with drop tech to protect the worm etc 
Good practices:
- Use doomdrop then nydus to reinforce OR retreat depending on the situation
- Use nydus to connect your bases so you can easily transport ultras, infestors and queens between them
- Place outside an edge base (enemy 4th) to draw his units there, follow up with doomdrop in main
- Spread your nydus networks (not worms) in your different expansions, the entrances/exits have a little more hp that way
- Be on 10gas so you can plant as many worms as you please XD .... up to 8 worms per minute! (WPM)
- Use nydus worm for emergency expansion block if you see a floating cc and forgot burrowed unit / creep ovie!
- Use nydus worm to draw enemy away to edge base while attacking the front with Brood Lords & infestors!
enjoy!
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EPT
