EPT[G] TvP Late-Game: The VG in MMMVG - Page 3
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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derpinator
74 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 15 2012 20:00 derpinator wrote: I like the idea of adding reapers to my army comp but it kind of sucks that if you have reapers in the same control group as MMM you are not able to use the stim hotkey. I already have problems controlling the MMMVG composition flawlessly (because anything less than flawless will get you disintegrated in 2sec.) so I am not really keen on having to make a fourth control group for reapers but that may not be necessary. Overall its a nice guide to introduce new terrrans to the TvP match up and with some more detail it could be an excellent guide. I'm not sure how Reapers in your control group make it so you have to tab in order to stim? I'll test it later and see what happens. You need control comparable to how well the Protoss is also micro-ing. He is: Splitting his HT's, possibly sentries. Keeping his units in a concave, if he doesn't his army will get EMP'd hard, and then you can simply 1at to victory. Warping in units and structures at the same time. Blinking Stalkers and focus firing your Vikings. Thanks for the feedback. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
2c | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 16 2012 04:41 spbelky wrote: I know it sounds silly but I really feel like a lowered reaper build time could help alleviate a lot of lategame TvP issues... picking off those "flanking HT" Taking out proxy pylons... kiting/kill zealots... reinforcement speed... harassing without the need to load/unload a medivac... Just saying now that the reaper speed tech requires a factory and a barracks requires a depot, I don't think a 30second reaper build time would be as imba as it once was. 2c A 30 second build time would be ideal for late-game, although that would probably incite balance issues in the early game. I think taking it slowly with no knee-jerk nerfs *cough* snipe *cough* would be better, say, 5 second buffs at a time. I've also updated the OP with another replay (Finally!). I've been dying constantly to various protoss all-in's lately, so not many toss late-game replays. EDIT: I have an idea: Let the Reaper Speed upgrade cut 5-10 seconds off of the Reaper build time as well. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Also, I'm not getting much constructive criticism here. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
Have fun. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 19 2012 15:06 NrGmonk wrote: Ok I'll give you some feedback:
Have fun. OK, I'll get to work on that.... Tomorrow. What you're suggesting would basically have me re-write the entire guide. Also, how you transition out of the 3 Barracks timing directly affects how you transition into the late game, so I'm still going to have some content on that. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 19 2012 15:12 Fencer710 wrote: OK, I'll get to work on that.... Tomorrow. What you're suggesting would basically have me re-write the entire guide. Also, how you transition out of the 3 Barracks timing directly affects how you transition into the late game, so I'm still going to have some content on that. Good guides focus on one topic, in your case Late game TvP. Anything else just distracts people. Although 1 rax cc into 3 rax starport is the most common TvP build, there are tons more ways to get to late game. 1 rax 3 cc, banshee opening into 3 cc, 1 rax cc into banshe/tank into 3rd, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas into fast 3rd, etc.... I could go on but you get my point. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 19 2012 15:21 NrGmonk wrote: Good guides focus on one topic, in your case Late game TvP. Anything else just distracts people. Although 1 rax cc into 3 rax starport is the most common TvP build, there are tons more ways to get to late game. 1 rax 3 cc, banshee opening into 3 cc, 1 rax cc into banshe/tank into 3rd, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas into fast 3rd, etc.... I could go on but you get my point. Yeah. I'm just going to say that you should be getting Reactors>Techlabs at roughly a 2-1 ratio with a maximum of four Techlabbed Barracks until you get into a super-lategame scenario where you're maxed for an extended period of time, have a ton of cash, and as a result need to make 5 or more Ghosts/Marauders at a time, or something similar. Edit: Cool, 555 posts.  | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On May 05 2012 09:10 Fencer710 wrote: To those who say "Well, why not build hellions instead?": + Show Spoiler + Quoting myself from another thread: Hellion disadvantages: They sprint ahead of your army and die immediately if you don't babysit them. They die to any amount of damage from any Protoss unit, since they don't share upgrades with Bio. They do a grand total of 15 damage per Zealot they hit with each shot with BF without weapon upgrades on the Zealot' HP. Their DPS is incredibly dependant on being in a choke or there being a ton of Zealots in a row. Requires more APM to make, since you have to get BF upgrade, and then switch the factory onto a reactor in order to make a non-zero amount of Hellions. Advantages of Hellions: Slightly more DPS than Marines and Marauders against Zealots if they have BF upgrade. Disadvantages of Reapers: Takes a long time to build. May get slightly ahead of your army, and die a little too quickly. Advantages of Reapers: Can be built from techlab Barracks. Does extremely high DPS against Zealots for supply. Has 5 more HP than a Marine, does not need to stim, so better in drawn out engagements. Shares upgrades with Marine, Marauder, and Ghost. Provides a viable army unit gas-dump. Thank you for not advocating blue flame hellions. Us protoss players are relieved...  But seriously, your description of advantages and disadvantages of both is biased and from what i've seen playing both Protoss and Terran, they're far more usefull and better in combat. Also i have no idea how do you have free gas while making mass ghosts, that's why dumping minerals in hellions instead of marines works better in my opinion and knowledge. The ONLY disadvantage that is legit is the upgrades, which you could utilize for tanks aswell. And hellion dps is not dependant on being in a choke. Make 20 hellions vs 20 zealots (same cost) and force a charge, then kite - see what happens... 0-0 BF hellions should kill 3-0-3 chargelots with like 16 left. That is if they fight alone, and you're obviously kiting them towards your army and protoss units can't keep up with chargelots. And if you chose to upgrade hellions/tanks aswell, then even with A-move and zealots getting surround hellions win. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 19 2012 16:59 -Kira wrote: Thank you for not advocating blue flame hellions. Us protoss players are relieved... But seriously, your description of advantages and disadvantages of both is biased and from what i've seen playing both Protoss and Terran, they're far more usefull and better in combat. Also i have no idea how do you have free gas while making mass ghosts, that's why dumping minerals in hellions instead of marines works better in my opinion and knowledge. The ONLY disadvantage that is legit is the upgrades, which you could utilize for tanks aswell. And hellion dps is not dependant on being in a choke. Make 20 hellions vs 20 zealots (same cost) and force a charge, then kite - see what happens... 0-0 BF hellions should kill 3-0-3 chargelots with like 16 left. That is if they fight alone, and you're obviously kiting them towards your army and protoss units can't keep up with chargelots. And if you chose to upgrade hellions/tanks aswell, then even with A-move and zealots getting surround hellions win. The thing is they take even more APM from a Terran player, which is something in very, very short supply. Also, the only time you would add either unit to your army is in a super-late-game situation, as straight up Bio is just plain better in 99% of circumstances. That's also another problem with fighting in a vacuum: It doesn't apply to real-game situations at all. You can actually cancel a charge with a right click, for example, and just have your Zealots stay in a 'safe zone' around your Colossus. If you add to your vacuum scenario even 4-5 BlinkStalkers, the Hellions die. If you add 3-4 Marauders and a Medivac, the Hellions will still get to kill most of the Zealots, but the Marauders will all die and the Medivac, as well, due to the fact that Hellions are faster than the Bio army, so they lead the Chargelots into your Bio, and then they make a concave so it's hard for your Hellions to get any good shots off. Siege Tanks are too immobile, period. There's just no way you can use them effectively. Ghost EMP's and Vikings are just plain better, for cost and supply. You can't punish a Protoss' mistakes if you have immobile Siege Tanks as part of your army. Siege Tanks actually work against you if you try to add them to your composition, since they do friendly fire damage to your own troops if you don't constantly kite, and if you do, the Siege Tanks get left for dead and melt to Colossus and Zealots. Last, you actually do have a surplus of gas in the very late-game. Ghosts and Vikings, the most gas-intensive combat units, cost minerals and gas at a 2-1 ratio. The most gas-intensive unit that is made in most games for Terran is the Medivac at 100/100(Raven too, but you only see those when a Terran goes 1-1-1, or wants a mobile detector), and you want 12 Medivacs at most, but even that is pushing your army supply. | ||
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