EPT[D] How important is Strategy in lower leagues? - Page 4
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Recoil
United States276 Posts
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On April 08 2012 23:06 TechSc2 wrote: 2. The art of planning and directing overall military operations and movements in a war or battle wait so google even agrees with a REAL dictionary and you say it's broken? how can a real dictionary be broken? go ahead and learn language from the interwebz, it's gonna be very helpfull in your job later on if it's not flipping burgers. The art of planning and directing overall military operations A.K.A. doing something with what you have NOW, not thinking about how to get whatever you want in 2 minutes. Strategists such as Napoleon weren't bothered with recruiting new soldiers, he was responsible to put those soldiers to good use. 7Gameplan is how do i get new soldiers. Strategy is how do i use my current set of soliders to benefit me the most Well, the dictionary you listed was apparently some translation from Dutch (not sure how that works for defining an English word). The bit I'm arguing about is the "with current resources", and I'm saying that a gameplan is part of strategy. I also disagree with your definition of gameplan - it's not just how to get the units, but also how to use them. You wouldn't be getting them if you were then going to make up what you did with them on the spot. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:53 Forbidden17 wrote: Some guy did this awhile ago and I feel it needs to be refreshed: 1. He made nothing but stalkers 2. He did not pressure his opponent in any way 3. He did not scout 4. He a-moved (zero micro) to his opponent's base when maxed 5. He got to diamond with his superior mechanics 6. Proceeded to do the same with Terran and Marines (don't remember if he did with zerg) Does this look like a complicated strategy to you? The point is you don't need a strategy in Bronze-Plat, do whatever the hell you want just work on your mechanics. Destiny also massed queens and got to platinum, just youtube it. I might actually try this for season 7. Its a simple strategy, but an effective one, especially in PvZ. Gets wrecked by MMM and protoss robo. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On April 09 2012 01:15 Adonminus wrote: I think people are too aggressive with the "macro better" statement toward low league players. In my opinion a good plan will help them, and strategy is one of the compositions of a plan. Low league players can't just simply have pro level macro and use mass queens to win every game, they need to advance in everything, not just macro. They need to learn strategy, macro, micro, positioning, defending cheese and everything... but a bit at a time. That way they will improve a little at everything and become eventually masters. Let's say they just improve macro, they become diamonds and don't know how to use decent strategies to beat players, and it just takes them tons of game and frustration to learn other things than macro which they never learnt in lower leagues. Sorry, maybe it is overly aggressive. It's just frustrating discussing strategy with lower league players when their opinions are so biased becase they can't execute a build properly. They will insist hatch first or 1gate fe is impossible to deal with 2rax when it is actually the best response. The point I was trying to make is not "fuck strategy 100%, all out mechanics ftw", obviously learn both but the priority should be mechanics. You are not in bronze because you can't stop 6pool you are in bronze because your mechanics are terrible. If you want a "strategy" to get to diamond or higher here you go: Protoss - mass stalker colossi Zerg - mass roach hydra Terran - mass marine marauder Don't waste your time going: "oh gee I wonder if it's safe to nexus first on this map or should I get the forge first since I may not scout him right away and he could be 6pooling, but the distance is so long I should be able to fend it off if I just cut probes a little at 16..." just forget all that garbage and just focus on mechanics. On April 09 2012 02:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I might actually try this for season 7. Its a simple strategy, but an effective one, especially in PvZ. Gets wrecked by MMM and protoss robo. In a theorycrafting world it gets wrecked by anyone who knows how to play the game properly. Yet, he got to diamond. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:34 Forbidden17 wrote: Sorry, maybe it is overly aggressive. It's just frustrating discussing strategy with lower league players when their opinions are so biased becase they can't execute a build properly. They will insist hatch first or 1gate fe is impossible to deal with 2rax when it is actually the best response. The point I was trying to make is not "fuck strategy 100%, all out mechanics ftw", obviously learn both but the priority should be mechanics. You are not in bronze because you can't stop 6pool you are in bronze because your mechanics are terrible. If you want a "strategy" to get to diamond or higher here you go: Protoss - mass stalker colossi Zerg - mass roach hydra Terran - mass marine marauder Don't waste your time going: "oh gee I wonder if it's safe to nexus first on this map or should I get the forge first since I may not scout him right away and he could be 6pooling, but the distance is so long I should be able to fend it off if I just cut probes a little at 16..." just forget all that garbage and just focus on mechanics. In a theorycrafting world it gets wrecked by anyone who knows how to play the game properly. Yet, he got to diamond. I'm not theorycrafting, I watched all the games. I'm saying that any of his opponents that used those builds crushed him despite having much worse macro. The games he won were against opponents with bad macro AND often a poor strat. | ||
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Proxee
63 Posts
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Elefes
Russian Federation164 Posts
On April 08 2012 23:27 aggu wrote: greetings from the bronze league! I just played five games. Here's what happened: + Show Spoiler + (I always try to do 2rax expo, with 2 naked rax--with 1rax expo I can't hold) Game 1 TvT. proxy 3rax 1-base (I win with bunker and repair) Game 2 TvZ. He had 23 lings at 6:55 at my expo, 15 drones in base. Total chaos. I won because I locked the lings inside my own base... no need to explain anything else... Game 3. TvP macro game! (W) Game 4. TvP 1-base blink stalker (loss, I have no clue as what to do, he comes with 10+ stalkers, my bunkers were at my expo, I have to think about this) Game 5. TvP 9:50 at my ramp with 2 immo, 3 sentry, 5 stalkers; I had bunkers but he forcefielded in some way so that my SCVs couldn't repair. His attack failed, then he attacks into my main with warp prism and to expo at the same time. I won for some reason. In my experience, this is to continue forever, 80-90% = 1-base play or cheese. ** How am I to survive all this while thinking about "macro better"? I am honestly (no irony) interested what's the trick. Here's what I understand so far. My macro and micro is HORRIBLE. But in all those games, my primary goal going into the game should be: how to survive past 10 minutes. What saves my poor life is micro (which is horrible, but still, I won 80% of those games). I have to repair bunkers with SCVs. I have to 9scout to spot cheese. I have to go around my base to find proxy pylons and proxy rax and proxy PF. I have to make bunkers. I have to 2rax expo instead of 1rax expo, since with the latter I can't hold (so poor skill). And here's another problem. You can say: just macro better and you will have more units at 5:00, 6:00, 7:00. But the problem is, when a 1base rush or cheese is coming, I can't macro normally. It distracts me so much if I have to repair bunkers, have my troops all shooting or retreating, building new bunkers. So if you watch those games, you will find a ton of hilarious macro and micro problems---yes, but I can't do it if I have to fight cheese or rush at the same time. Perhaps the trick is: macro is important once you defeat cheese and 1base rush. But that's meaningless. It's like saying, macro is not important, learn to counter cheese first. That kind of stressful decision making increases your skill cap (apm, focus, micro, decision making). Which means that when you're not cheesed, you will still be playing much faster and more attentive (macro macro macro, the push is comiiiing). If you always play in your comfort zone, you stagnate, right? I just remember these days when all terrans either 1/1/1'd or marine+SVC'd in gold/silver. It teached me to scout a bit better, to 1-gate expand, to pull workers when needed, etc. Once you survive, you know it's a deserved 1A 5-10 minutes later :D ^^ __________________________ On April 09 2012 01:11 teamsolid wrote: I'm sorry but your build would not hold against a gold-plat level executed 4-gate, which I imagine would be quite common in TvP at these leagues. If you fast expo, you must make bunkers. Haha, It's not THAT common to see a 4gate even in PvP, and PvT/PvZ is all around FEing nowadays. I suspect it is true even in silver, not sure about bronze o_O Sincerely, gold/plat scrub :D | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2012 01:15 Adonminus wrote: I have 750+ wins and I am still in Silver. One of my issues is that I make my mistakes again and again. Have a look on macro is the best advise I got so far because it helps in every game, not just the game where a certain strategy could be applied.I think people are too aggressive with the "macro better" statement toward low league players. In my opinion a good plan will help them, and strategy is one of the compositions of a plan. Low league players can't just simply have pro level macro and use mass queens to win every game, they need to advance in everything, not just macro. They need to learn strategy, macro, micro, positioning, defending cheese and everything... but a bit at a time. That way they will improve a little at everything and become eventually masters. Not everyone can get to masters anyway, since master league covers just 2% of the active player population. Strategy requires a lot of experience. If you tell a player "if you scout this, do that" you will never cover any possible situation. And to notice the nuances of different situations, experience is invaluable. So while one focuses on ones macro, one also can get the experience for smarter strategy choices in the next game. When I play a ZvZ and see that my opponent takes his third, I could expand, too, or mass units for an attack. Either choice requires superior macro compared to the opponent: To defend my new expansion, or to crush him in time (while his third isn't making profit yet.) If I attack on two-bases versus his three, I could have the goal to finish the game right there, or to crush his forces to leaving him nothing to attack me while I expand or even double-expand. No matter how to look at it, at least from a zerg perspective I need to have the proper economy to allow me having valid strategy choices in the first place. | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
Macro better. should really be: Pick a safe build, then macro better. Protoss example: 3 gate is a safe build. It's an outdated build, but a build none the less. Do this build only, don't be fancy, don't do what the pros do. Learn and practice the build so that the build is as natural as breathing. The more you do your chosen build, the less time is spent thinking on how to do the build, or what building goes when, what to build, etc, etc. While learning the build, macro to the best of your ability. The thought required to do the build will become insignificant, and your macro will improve dramatically. Do this, and you can advance quickly. Myself being high gold and still advancing (I was silver season 5), I 3 gate in every matchup (with variations to standard 3 gate of course). It works. It's outdated, there are so many better builds out there right now. But being able to do 1 build extremely well will advance you up the ladder far faster than being able to do every build really poorly. The biggest problem with low league players is they see a pro do something on a stream, and want to do it too. But they don't have the micro ability, or decision making, or don't have the macro skill to pull it off. But it's new, and it worked for him; why won't it work for me? It's the every build poorly versus 1 build cleanly argument again. While my 3 gate example may be poor, as it is outdated, pick something else and learn it. I'm currently transitioning to learn FFE, but I'm practicing that off ladder to maintain macro and hone the build. I still don't have it down, and until I do, I will continue to play off ladder to get the build hammered down. TL;DR: Pick one solid build. Learn it so it becomes natural. Learn to macro better while learning the build. Watch your rank rise. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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antz0r
Australia168 Posts
I just wanted to show these following things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326528 - a link to CecilSunkure's thread on the power of macro vs gold level strategy. http://www.twitch.tv/cecilsunkure/b/314045529 - a twitchtv video of him doing this. Sc2Halby's Macro practice drills- Pt1 Pt2 Pt3 The whole thing is- a good strategy won't matter so much if there is an overwhelming army. The persians still won at thermoplyae against the greeks although legend has it that it was several million persians vs 300 greeks at a narrow pass. But against a player who is on an even skill level compared to you in a match strategy matters. Things like; unit placement, expanding earlier, denying their expansion, making battles less cost efficient for the other side, a sneak attack while they are distracted, or two pronged attacks/multi-pronged attacks, getting a tech advantage, or hitting a timing attack when an upgrade finishes (eg- stim). So to repeat: Strategy matters a little bit, but having a great economy that allows you to make a larger and more technologically advanced army faster and more efficiently than your opponent matters a helluva lot more. | ||
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jumai
Canada115 Posts
When I first started this game, did a fast expand, droned to saturation, then made units. Any units. I didn't control them either, just a-moved via the minimap and made 2 specific checks (on arrival, to see what he was making, and on death, to see how much he still had). The rest of the time, I was back at my base, doing injects, remembering overlords, and trying to run out of money. If I ran out of larva, I built a macro hatch. If I ran out of money, I spread creep. You'd be amazed what you can macro through in low leagues. My response to banshees was to make 2 evo chambers in different locations, begin producing queens from every hatch, and pump drones. As long as I cancelled anything other than queens in my hatches (lair), got an inject off with each queen before she died, and I didn't have to restart my evo chamber more than twice (very rare), I could just drone through the damage until I got spores up. This worked pretty reliably up to top 8 in gold, which was about the point when most people were actually making stuff past the point when their banshees started shooting. Bronze/silver players were completely ineffectual against this; they'd kill drones slower than I could produce them, deny maybe 2-3 spores, and be actually way behind afterwards. Checking replays I got used to seeing 3 marines, 14-17 scv's, and almost 4k minerals back home. Then they'd typically make an scv, a fusion core, and 2 more starports... this was so normal I learned to time my counterattack so it hit between BC #1 and BC's #2 and #3 (which were delayed, due to forgetting the tech labs). | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
Even in zvz, i just lost one, my opponent goes gas and is mining it, and kills me with mass speedling. He ended the game with 300 gas in the banked up, and i had to rage due to loss vs noobness. | ||
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EternalAce
Denmark8 Posts
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
Tactic = more detailed small part of the strategy (like how to use your units in an engagement; siege up on that highgroud, run forward with the marines, have them baneling rolled because they're out of tankrange and then have the tanks slowly poked to death by Mutas) Strategy is somewhat important even in lower leagues, because it frees up your head to macro better (which is still the most important part). So, if you know that you want to FE, get MMM, expand more, finally get Ghosts and Vikings, you don't need to think about it too much anymore and can concentrate on building that stuff. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Macro well, strategy will follow. There isn't much strategy to really understand, the game is pretty straightforward. At the lower levels, strategy doesn't exist because of the lack of macro. You don't have ZvP where toss goes FFE, has to scout if zerg takes third, then toss does sentry/zealot wg pressure, which zerg must get roaches and creep for, and then zerg gets map control to deny third, then toss gets third, then zerg gets mutas while toss has stronger army, and then zerg must keep toss in his base while he gets broodlords before the push. You will *never* see a game go like that in diamond. But you'll always see it in masters+. You may see mutas, or mass roach, or warp gate timing, but you won't see all the facets of a 'normal' PvZ in a lower league game. Without proper macro on both sides, strategy doesn't exist. Macro is the basics of this game. So the problem, is that Diamond players aren't really considered playing the game. They don't have the basics down. So any 'strategy' ends up viable if you macro better, and the game isn't played at a 'competent' level where things really make sense. There is no strategy in the lower leagues. You may think it is, but it's not. All you have in the lower leagues is basics of how the game may flow, like stalker/colossi, but that's more unit composition, not strategy. Strategy is ALL about timings, and the lower levels don't have the macro to make such timings exist. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:44 antz0r wrote: The whole thing is- a good strategy won't matter so much if there is an overwhelming army. The persians still won at thermoplyae against the greeks although legend has it that it was several million persians vs 300 greeks at a narrow pass. Its funny you mention that, because the Persians beat the Greeks by outflanking their position and forcing the bulk of their holding force to retreat from certain death once they had lost their superior terrain advantage. Likewise you can massacre infinite numbers of lowtech troops using a chokepoint and colossi/siegetanks/broodlords. | ||
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Shivvy
Canada37 Posts
My priorities are; 1)Tap through production buildings and make sure every building is producing units (workers being the most important) 2)Make sure a supply block isn't imminent. 3)Make sure my upgrades are running. 4)Do some harass if I have the spare APM. 5)Rinse and repeat. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 10 2012 21:18 Belial88 wrote: + Show Spoiler + ^ No, it's the other way around. Macro well, strategy will follow. There isn't much strategy to really understand, the game is pretty straightforward. At the lower levels, strategy doesn't exist because of the lack of macro. You don't have ZvP where toss goes FFE, has to scout if zerg takes third, then toss does sentry/zealot wg pressure, which zerg must get roaches and creep for, and then zerg gets map control to deny third, then toss gets third, then zerg gets mutas while toss has stronger army, and then zerg must keep toss in his base while he gets broodlords before the push. You will *never* see a game go like that in diamond. But you'll always see it in masters+. You may see mutas, or mass roach, or warp gate timing, but you won't see all the facets of a 'normal' PvZ in a lower league game. Without proper macro on both sides, strategy doesn't exist. Macro is the basics of this game. So the problem, is that Diamond players aren't really considered playing the game. They don't have the basics down. So any 'strategy' ends up viable if you macro better, and the game isn't played at a 'competent' level where things really make sense. There is no strategy in the lower leagues. You may think it is, but it's not. All you have in the lower leagues is basics of how the game may flow, like stalker/colossi, but that's more unit composition, not strategy. Strategy is ALL about timings, and the lower levels don't have the macro to make such timings exist. Its easy to say strategy doesn't exist in low leagues, when you make up your own definition of strategy to specifically exclude it. As long as you have EQUAL macro on both sides, strategy exists. | ||
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
1. don't lose by your own mistakes 2. don't build units that die fast to his units 3.???? 4.profit | ||
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