EPT[D] How important is Strategy in lower leagues? - Page 3
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
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EneMecH
United Kingdom218 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
@Broesl I get what you want to say. If i´m right you want to say, that your strategic decisions improve while playing a lot. I agree with you on that. But to improve that, you have to actualy thing about it. For example. You want to deny your opponents 3rd, but you failed. Then you should ask yourself: Was it my control or didn´t i have enough units to attack at that moment or did the map favor my opponent in that position? If you don´t think about it, your knowledge of the game cannot be build up and when the people say if you would have macroed better, you could have killed him at that time. So you only focus on improving your Macro, because everyone says that the attack works with good Macro. Noone says something like, look he just had 3 Gateways aggainst your 4 Raxes. If you had produced constantly your army would be bigger than your opponent, because he just had 3 Gateways. The amount of production facilties you and your opponent have in combination with your Macro ability, determine whether an attack can work or not. I mean the answer "Macro better" leads your attention away from other important things. If you played 1000 games until you reach Diamond league and you just thought about "macro better" than your opponent you have wasted 1000 games worth of gameknowledge. Do you understand what i want to point out? I thought he was saying that play more, and strategy will evolve, and therefore your focus should be on macro, because strategy will come about through good macro and just playing more. Which is true. Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but to address you, i disagree with you (or both of you, whatever). See, the issue is that, such attacks would work better if you macro better. That's the whole goddamn point here. Things like 'did the map favor him?' are not necesary in platinum and below. Just macro better, your attacks will work much better, and your opponnents will get steamrolled up to like mid-masters. And you are arguing against a straw man, like every bronze in here is doing. No one is going "Derp, I was told to macro better, I play 1000 games just making drones!". No, they play 1000 games, and get to fucking diamond, if not masters, because they played enough games and their strategy developed. Like, for fucks sake, OBVIOUSLY your game will improve as you play. In the meantime though, your FOCUS should be on macro. Things like strategy, will evolve naturally. I mean really, the worst thing you can do is hang out on the forums asking questions about strategy. Use the forums to get help on replays you couldn't figure out on your own, and just play more, and analyze your macro in your replays. That's how you get better. How am I to survive all this while thinking about "macro better"? I am honestly (no irony) interested what's the trick. Here's what I understand so far. My macro and micro is HORRIBLE. But in all those games, my primary goal going into the game should be: how to survive past 10 minutes. What saves my poor life is micro (which is horrible, but still, I won 80% of those games). I have to repair bunkers with SCVs. I have to 9scout to spot cheese. I have to go around my base to find proxy pylons and proxy rax and proxy PF. I have to make bunkers. I have to 2rax expo instead of 1rax expo, since with the latter I can't hold (so poor skill). Sorry, but you macro horribly. That's why these 1 base all-ins work. If you macro'd better, you would've handled these all-ins much easier. They would hardly even be viable if you macro'd better. Scouting is also part of the equation, but that's as simple as "did he take another base? no? Oh shit, he's all-inning". You just have to play more. Eventually 1 base all-ins will be so bad, they will be good, because you never see them, and so when you see them, it's like wtf i haven't seen that in a year, what a joke. Make sense? they are just really bad. | ||
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gaymon
Germany1023 Posts
Edit; The so called cheese from low-level players are so badly executed that one should be easily able to deflect attacks which normally would be BO-losses. | ||
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aggu
38 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:09 teamsolid wrote: Your anecdotes are in fact perfect examples of how just improving macro will get you out of bronze. How exactly were any of the above games you mentioned cheese? Like you stated, his "1-base rush" came at 9:50 with only 2 immo/3 sentry/5 stalkers. You could have made enough units to defend this push by the 6-7 min mark easily WHILE expoing if you had improved your macro. How exactly does an incoming rush 3 minutes later "distract you" from macroing the previous 6 minutes or the next 3 minutes? To the OP: I think strategy combined with macro is important once you hit diamond or above, but macro alone will easily get you from bronze to plat. At 6:00 I had: 2 x bunker, 11 marines, expo 75% done, supply 34. My BO is: 2 naked rax (12, 14), then produce constantly marines and SCVs, until I have money for expo. Make 3 x bunkers. At 9:48 when the attack comes I have: 18 marines, 33 SCVs, 2 marauders, 3 bunkers, factory (reactor building which I shift to starport later), stim 25% done, expo running, supply 61 What happens at 9.48 is that he forcefields so that I can't repair the bunkers. But I am left with one bunker which I repair with like 10+ SCVs, which he shoots and shoots, but then he retreats. My question: what are the "macro target" values I SHOULD BE at, given my BO, with which I can hold that without any bunkers or with any micro? Another way to ask: what is a BO that will hold any bronze 1base rush without any micro or without bunkers? what are the targets (units, supply, SCVs)? A constraint is that I like to expand around 5:00-6:00. I can surely test whatever you come up with! | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:25 aggu wrote: At 6:00 I had: 2 x bunker, 11 marines, expo 75% done, supply 34. My BO is: 2 naked rax (12, 14), then produce constantly marines and SCVs, until I have money for expo. Make 3 x bunkers. At 9:48 when the attack comes I have: 18 marines, 33 SCVs, 2 marauders, 3 bunkers, factory (reactor building which I shift to starport later), stim 25% done, expo running, supply 61 What happens at 9.48 is that he forcefields so that I can't repair the bunkers. But I am left with one bunker which I repair with like 10+ SCVs, which he shoots and shoots, but then he retreats. My question: what are the "macro target" values I SHOULD BE at, given my BO, with which I can hold that without any bunkers or with any micro? Another way to ask: what is a BO that will hold any bronze 1base rush without any micro or without bunkers? what are the targets (units, supply, SCVs)? A constraint is that I like to expand around 5:00-6:00. I can surely test whatever you come up with! Here, I just played a quick sample game against easy AI to demonstrate a very safe build that will hold off pretty much ANY bronze rush while letting you comfortably expand in any of the 3 matchups (although it's probably more suited to TvZ/TvT). It's probably not the cleanest build possible, as I don't even play Terran. I'm a Zerg master's player. http://replayfu.com/r/bLP0Bc If you just follow the same build order I used: By the 7 min mark I had 2 tanks with siege mode already finished. 2 bunkers full of marines and orbital command already landed at my natural. If I had suspected an incoming rush at the 7 min mark, I could've easily transferred some SCVs as my orbital landed so as to have some SCVs to repair. That defense could easily defeat 2 imm/3 sentry/5 stalker with 0 micro besides SCV pull + bunker repair. | ||
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aggu
38 Posts
Sorry, but you macro horribly. That's why these 1 base all-ins work. If you macro'd better, you would've handled these all-ins much easier. They would hardly even be viable if you macro'd better. Scouting is also part of the equation, but that's as simple as "did he take another base? no? Oh shit, he's all-inning". You just have to play more. Eventually 1 base all-ins will be so bad, they will be good, because you never see them, and so when you see them, it's like wtf i haven't seen that in a year, what a joke. Make sense? they are just really bad. I understand that my macro is bad. A GM macro is terribly good. My scouting algorithm is exactly what you propose, I just check for expo. I understand that if I can hold, I will win. But I am a poor bronzie and want to understand how to implement the "macro better" algorithm under the circumstances I am in, which is 80% = 1base attack before 10:00. Is there some BO (with early 5-7 min expo) that, when perfectly executed, will hold almost everything WITHOUT bunkers and any micro? What's the supply and unit composition? | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:38 aggu wrote: I understand that my macro is bad. A GM macro is terribly good. My scouting algorithm is exactly what you propose, I just check for expo. I understand that if I can hold, I will win. But I am a poor bronzie and want to understand how to implement the "macro better" algorithm under the circumstances I am in, which is 80% = 1base attack before 10:00. Is there some BO (with early 5-7 min expo) that, when perfectly executed, will hold almost everything WITHOUT bunkers and any micro? What's the supply and unit composition? Why do you want to "not build bunkers"? If you do an early expo as Terran, it's mandatory to make 1-2 bunkers, 3 preferably if you suspect 4-gate. | ||
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aggu
38 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:38 teamsolid wrote: Here, I just played a quick sample game against easy AI to demonstrate a very safe build that will hold off pretty much ANY bronze rush while letting you comfortably expand in any of the 3 matchups (although it's probably more suited to TvZ/TvT). It's probably not the cleanest build possible, as I don't even play Terran. I'm a Zerg master's player. http://replayfu.com/r/bLP0Bc If you just follow the same build order I used: By the 7 min mark I had 2 tanks with siege mode already finished. 2 bunkers full of marines and orbital command already landed at my natural. If I had suspected an incoming rush at the 7 min mark, I could've easily transferred some SCVs as my orbital landed so as to have some SCVs to repair. That defense could easily defeat 2 imm/3 sentry/5 stalker with 0 micro besides SCV pull + bunker repair. THANK YOU SO MUCH  I will look into it and test. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
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aggu
38 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:41 teamsolid wrote: Why do you want to "not build bunkers"? If you do an early expo as Terran, it's mandatory to make 1-2 bunkers, 3 preferably if you suspect 4-gate. OK, if they are mandatory, I will make them. I thought they are gimmicky and not part of "better macro". Well, I realize that one problem I had was the lack of bunkers, previously I played a bit of protoss and didn't need such.. | ||
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:25 aggu wrote: At 6:00 I had: 2 x bunker, 11 marines, expo 75% done, supply 34. My BO is: 2 naked rax (12, 14), then produce constantly marines and SCVs, until I have money for expo. Make 3 x bunkers. At 9:48 when the attack comes I have: 18 marines, 33 SCVs, 2 marauders, 3 bunkers, factory (reactor building which I shift to starport later), stim 25% done, expo running, supply 61 What happens at 9.48 is that he forcefields so that I can't repair the bunkers. But I am left with one bunker which I repair with like 10+ SCVs, which he shoots and shoots, but then he retreats. My question: what are the "macro target" values I SHOULD BE at, given my BO, with which I can hold that without any bunkers or with any micro? Another way to ask: what is a BO that will hold any bronze 1base rush without any micro or without bunkers? what are the targets (units, supply, SCVs)? A constraint is that I like to expand around 5:00-6:00. I can surely test whatever you come up with! For scv count, its much simpler to calculate At 10 min, assuming constant production of SCVs + orbital on one CC, you would have 33 workers. Considering you already have your expo up for 3 mins 35 secs, you should have EXTRA 10 scvs even with 2nd orbital Total time = (10 x 60) = 600 secs Less orbital = 600 - 35 = 565 Number of scvs = 565/17 = 33 I guess to get a better gauge on units etc, you would have to look at BO guide or replays. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
1. He made nothing but stalkers 2. He did not pressure his opponent in any way 3. He did not scout 4. He a-moved (zero micro) to his opponent's base when maxed 5. He got to diamond with his superior mechanics 6. Proceeded to do the same with Terran and Marines (don't remember if he did with zerg) Does this look like a complicated strategy to you? The point is you don't need a strategy in Bronze-Plat, do whatever the hell you want just work on your mechanics. Destiny also massed queens and got to platinum, just youtube it. | ||
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aggu
38 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:45 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I've an 80%ish winrate in silver TvP and TvZ by expanding at 6:00 after 3 rax. I have so many marines that no ealy push can cause much problems. Just a bane bust requires the small change of building the OC on highground, and getting siegetech before expoing. Can you give me the BO or replay, so that I can test? So you have 3 naked rax with constant marine + SCV production + bunkers + expo at 6:00 ? This must be without gas? Or do you halt production to get expo? I know there's the 1base 3rax rush with stim etc but that's not what I want. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:53 aggu wrote: Can you give me the BO or replay, so that I can test? So you have 3 naked rax with constant marine + SCV production + bunkers + expo at 6:00 ? This must be without gas? Or do you halt production to get expo? I know there's the 1base 3rax rush with stim etc but that's not what I want. Search for Halby's Mineral Drill on Youtube. As long as you don't take gas, you can constantly produce from the 3 rax and CC and still expand at 6:00. I don't generally get bunkers. After expoing I do take 1/2 gas to get some tech. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On April 09 2012 01:03 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Search for Halby's Mineral Drill on Youtube. As long as you don't take gas, you can constantly produce from the 3 rax and CC and still expand at 6:00. I don't generally get bunkers. After expoing I do take 1/2 gas to get some tech. I'm sorry but your build would not hold against a gold-plat level executed 4-gate, which I imagine would be quite common in TvP at these leagues. If you fast expo, you must make bunkers. | ||
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CaptainKirk
Canada34 Posts
If you want to get better, use your brain and learn the game through playing. Of course you cannot simply state that macro alone will solve all your problems. The problem with lower leaguers is because they really are casual players. Casual Habits: 1. Do not play the game enough 2. Do not care enough about improving / lazy attitude 3. Do not watch replays and actually learn from their mistakes 4. They spend more time reading up on how to win instead of actually playing the game Solutions: 1. You play ladder a lot. Lets take someone who plays 50 games a day versus someone who plays 5 games a day and then spends the rest of his time reading these useless forum posts - who do you think will improve faster? 2. Only play 1v1 because all the other modes do not require any brainpower to play and you do not actually learn the game well at all 3. You learn from your mistakes by watching every one of your replays 1+ times to pinpoint where you went wrong, and you figure out how to improve. Simple. 3. You watch replays from top pros to learn the meta game and learn strategy I really thought this would be common sense to anyone looking to get better, but it seems common sense is not so common. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
Let's say they just improve macro, they become diamonds and don't know how to use decent strategies to beat players, and it just takes them tons of game and frustration to learn other things than macro which they never learnt in lower leagues. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
But it's much easier to learn macro first and strategy later. Why? Learning strategy first typically isn't very helpful. Sure, you can learn to do Zenio's 3-hatch baneling bust, but unless you have the macro (injects, drone timings, overlord timings) down, it won't be as effective. To be fair though, when I was a lower league player I was always more interested in Strategy (I did work on macro too though), so I can understand. It's not fun just practicing macro. | ||
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