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Intro:
TvP is hard right now, we all know that. Protoss can be greedy and fast expand or they can simply choose between one of their many extremely effective all ins. Well, its time for us Terrans to level the playing field with some quality cheddar.
That right there is some sharp cheddar.
The idea of this build is to punish greedy 15 nexus Protoss by lulling them into a false sense of security before crushing them with your marines and scvs.
The General Build:
- 10. Depot
- 12. Barracks (1)
- 15. Supply
- 16. Marine
- 16. Orbital
- @400 minerals CC on the low ground
As of right now, this looks like literally every other 1 Rax FE. However, here is where we get cheesy. Your entire goal in life at this moment is to snipe the scouting probe, while still allowing it to see your second cc, or more importantly, allowing it to think it saw your second cc. There are a few ways to do this.
- Rally your initial marines to the front of your expo to snipe it as it comes in and sees your second cc going down.
- If it gets in your base, allow it to see a SCV leaving your main to "go build your expo."
- If you have 3+ marines out before the scout comes, you can snipe it before it gets into your base. It is up to you to decide if you want to actually put a cc down to trick it or if you want to just snipe it.
It is just too easy.
Once that pesky probe is out of your way, its time to beef up your army. You should have more than enough minerals to instantly throw down 3 extra barracks. Where you place them is up to you, but I prefer to place them near a cliff so I can fly them down and minimize my rush distance.
From here, you just want to keep pumping marines and scvs and building depots so you don't get blocked. You will have excess minerals while your barracks are building so I suggest putting down 2-3 depots at this time. You want to get to x/59 supply ideally. Additionally, you want to put a bunker at the very front of your expand to keep out scouting stalker/zealot.
Almost as cool as the makarax.
Execution:
Now that you have your barracks up and the Protoss is happily derping around in his base chronoboosting out probes, you want to start to take map control. Depending on the map, you might want to send marines to the watch tower. On maps like Antiga, if you are not cross position, this is not a huge deal because you can move outside the tower's range of vision. However, on maps like Shakuras, you want to control at least one watch tower as that will allow you to move your army undetected through the fog of war.
Once you have 12 marines out, it is time to attack.
- Salvage your bunker.
- Return all minerals and hotkey your workers as well as turning on auto repair.
- Rally your workers, marines, and barracks to the Protoss's base.
When you are attacking there are a few things you want to remember.
- Stalkers can out run marines but not SCVs.
- Workers can mineral walk through all units.
- SCVs on auto repair and stop form a very effective wall that is almost impenetrable to nonworkers.
Once you get to their base, simply mineral walk all of your workers behind their units. If they have lots of guys on the low ground, mineral walk behind them. However, if they have units in their main, specifically sentries, you want to mineral walk up their main ramp and try to snipe the sentries asap. Sentries are literally the only thing that can hold off this attack. Remember, all this time you should be producing marines that are rallied to the protoss's base. Once you have killed most of the units at the expand, you want to mineral walk your SCVs into the main base to get vision on the high ground in case of sentries. Additionally, it is not necessary to kill the second nexus, as it is essentially useless to the protoss at this point. Once you are in the main, you want to snipe warping units and pylons. If a lot of pylons are charging a specific structure, simply disregard them and go straight for the probes.
At this point the game is essentially over.
Mineral walk all day, son.
From here, target down sentries first, then stalkers, then zealots and finally probes. You may or may not know this, but marines do absurd amounts of dps, so if you are able to trap their units in, a quick focus fire will easily kill it. Once they pull probes, you know it is over as marine/SCV absolutely destroys probes.
gg, no re.
Tips:
- Take weird paths to the protoss base so you don't go through tower vision. Fog of war is your friend.
- Don't forget to target fire.
- Sentries need to die first.
- Bunker up your natural and spread your marines around it to deny scouting.
Other:
If they do get the sentry out and are capable of infinitely blocking their main ramp, simply run all of your scvs home and kill their expand with your marines. You will be pretty even, and if you are able to snipe enough probes and units you could be significantly ahead.
Reps:
More will be coming. (Someone please link me to a good rep upload site ^^
About me:
Hey guys, I am FTaCtReMiiX. I am a member of the Future Talent Art Control Team. I am a Masters Terran on both NA and EU. My favorite style is pure bio in all three match ups. I currently am an undergrad math major at the Georgia Institute of Technology, where I also play on the CSL team. Some of you may know of me from when I casted the "Thrilla In Da Silva" Showmatch with Husky. Feel free to add me on bnet or follow me on twitter or twitch.tv. This is my first guide so let me know how I did! More will be coming.
FT.aCt) Website
Twitter
Stream
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When do you attack and with what amount of marines though?
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I think this is a case of someone accidentally hitting 'post' before the post was ready 
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Shakuras is the easiest map to do that on as far as denying scouting goes.
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When I'm writing guides, I do the draft on a random LR thread that no one will ever open to prevent things like these from happening ^^ It makes it easier to share as well for proof reading etc...
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*waits eagerly for rest of the guide* :D
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Coming up next: 2 1/2 rax marine/scv all in!
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Lol why do you need a guide for this? He cancels cc, makes barracks, pumps marines and prays to win with a move.
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if the protoss makes an early sentry(ies), and chrono boost out wg like he should. you could be kinda screwed depending on what time you get to his base and up his ramp
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On February 23 2012 03:09 Olsson wrote:
When do you attack and with what amount of marines though?
I accidentally hit submit, check it now.
On February 23 2012 03:17 crocodile wrote:I think this is a case of someone accidentally hitting 'post' before the post was ready
Its true, I am a posting noob.
On February 23 2012 03:23 k!llua wrote:
*waits eagerly for rest of the guide* :D
Its done! ^^
On February 23 2012 03:20 Geiko wrote:
When I'm writing guides, I do the draft on a random LR thread that no one will ever open to prevent things like these from happening ^^ It makes it easier to share as well for proof reading etc...
Yeah, I will do this for now on. Thanks!
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On February 23 2012 03:36 Cokefreak wrote:
You wrote cheddar wrong.
Megafail.
Fixed ^^
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personally, I think it's more cost effective to build a bunker kinda far in front of where your expo is, that would give the impression that you're expo'ing. and also defend against some weird cheese from toss.
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Ok now that the guide's up, I have a question:
How do you cope with Protoss warping in DTs in their main? A normal DT rush will hit around 7:20-7:40; according to the times on the screenshots, your attack hits around this time.
A good Protoss will spread their DTs so you won't be able to hit them all with a single scan ~_~
I'm wondering how effective this attack could be if it hit at 6 minutes. 5 minutes is the standard timing to counter a 15 nexus, AFAIK.
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So.... how do you kill a well-microed stalker with this build?
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You won't be even, or anywhere close to even if you kill their nexus and they hold their main unless you killed like 90% of their probes. Mules are good, but not that good.
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That protoss took a third before the 8 minute mark... I'd like to see a replay of this working against a less greedy build.
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On February 23 2012 04:28 klaxen wrote:
That protoss took a third before the 8 minute mark... I'd like to see a replay of this working against a less greedy build.
Yeah the build he did was really stupid. I am searching through my replays for more! I have a lot of reps vs non 15 nex openings that still worked pretty well so I will upload those as well.
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Canada13407 Posts
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage.
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On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage.
The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time.
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I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays!
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On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays!
You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season.
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I just think that any Protoss thats prepared for any 4 naked rax pressure after a 1 rax expo will be fine with this. It doesn't even hit much earlier than regular naked marine pressure after 1 rax fe. And you don't have two orbitals.
Tldr: you're better off doing a hard 3 rax marine scv all in (either proxy or wall with depot) without delaying it or being tricky. Or doing 4 rax pressure after your cc.
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Canada13407 Posts
On February 23 2012 04:38 Borkbokbork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage. The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time.
If he places the 2nd supply depot when he did in the replay a protoss who didn't 9 scout wouldn't get in to see gas taken vs not taken and in that case I always do the MC 1 gate FE just because its safer.
Furthermore the protoss did a Nexus first and should have even more units than the MC 1 gate FE. The nexus first was done incorrectly as well since he cancelled the second gateway early on when you are supposed to go nexus - gate - core - gate.
What I am trying to say is this build relies a lot on just tricking the opponent and hoping they react poorly when they see whats on the way. You really should be able to either hold most of the push and win the game right there with good control since the timing is fairly late OR you can give up the nexus and slice the army with some forcefields then just take the tech and eco advantage you will have at 7 minutes. The opponent will need to run all his surviving scvs back home after he tries to attack and with no expo, all that lost mining time and no gas getting 2 collosi and expanding again while attacking should be a viable reaction.
On February 23 2012 04:42 ReMiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays! You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season.
I honestly feel like in that replay you got really lucky he did such a greedy build and its a novel build hence the win. Almost anything would have killed that protoss with 3 bases before 8 minutes and almost no army units at all.
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On February 23 2012 05:00 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:38 Borkbokbork wrote:On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage. The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time. If he places the 2nd supply depot when he did in the replay a protoss who didn't 9 scout wouldn't get in to see gas taken vs not taken and in that case I always do the MC 1 gate FE just because its safer. Furthermore the protoss did a Nexus first and should have even more units than the MC 1 gate FE. The nexus first was done incorrectly as well since he cancelled the second gateway early on when you are supposed to go nexus - gate - core - gate. What I am trying to say is this build relies a lot on just tricking the opponent and hoping they react poorly when they see whats on the way. You really should be able to either hold most of the push and win the game right there with good control since the timing is fairly late OR you can give up the nexus and slice the army with some forcefields then just take the tech and eco advantage you will have at 7 minutes. The opponent will need to run all his surviving scvs back home after he tries to attack and with no expo, all that lost mining time and no gas getting 2 collosi and expanding again while attacking should be a viable reaction. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:42 ReMiiX wrote:On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays! You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season. I honestly feel like in that replay you got really lucky he did such a greedy build and its a novel build hence the win. Almost anything would have killed that protoss with 3 bases before 8 minutes and almost no army units at all.
Its true, the replay that I have up right now is sort of a fluke. 15 nex, 34 nex would lose to almost any pressure. However, I have dozens of replays of this building working vs all kinds of protoss builds. Unfortunately, a lot of these are on my Korean account and it is really hard to find them. I am working on it! Hopefully I can change your mind about this build.
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On February 23 2012 03:52 .Natsu wrote:
So.... how do you kill a well-microed stalker with this build?
trap it with the scv's. also mains are small enough that eventually with proper control, the stalker will get cornered.
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What happens if they don't FE, I'm pretty sure you just straight up lose. Secondly, how do you intend to take map control with your marines when he'll have 1-2 stalkers at your front?
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I get that this can surprise a protoss, but I don't like that all you have to do is to pull everything back in your main and FF the ramp while you warp in 3 sentries to autowin against it.
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On February 23 2012 05:23 Zoku wrote:
What happens if they don't FE, I'm pretty sure you just straight up lose. Secondly, how do you intend to take map control with your marines when he'll have 1-2 stalkers at your front?
If they don't FE you don't have to all in. This build is about when the protoss 15 nexs. However, even when they dont 15nex, this build can still be very effective. I am working on locating replays where this build works vs non 15nex.
In terms of map control you have to be a little bit ballsy. So basically, stalkers are only good vs marines because they can kite them. So, if there was a stalker at a watch tower, literally all you have to do is attack move to the watch tower. Once you are contesting it, the protoss has two options. 1. It can leave the stalker to fight, potentially losing it. Or, 2. It can move the stalker, giving up map control. In the second case, the stalker will no longer be able to kite the marines as once you control the watch tower, the stalker has to contest it (meaning it has to be within a very short range of your units) in order to attack. Additionally, since you have vision and he doesn't, good marine placement will allow you to get a few shots off on the protoss before he can do anything.
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If you scout the 15 nex, there's not really a point in faking the expo. Assuming you were already going to 1 rax fe, you just plop down two-three extra rax, try to sneak a bunker in with your scouting scv, and all in
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how can this cheese be good dude ? protoss will get a stalker and kite you to death ....and since most protoss open 1 zealot 2 stalker in pvt with 2 chronos on stalkers you will hit protoss base with 50% of your initial army .
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nice guide, but every time i see a terran do this build, the toss can just run up the ramp,
forcefield, and then play with a huge eco advantage
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That toss saw your expo and took a big risk by getting slightly safe and then expanding again. I think the replay was a bo counter if you call what the toss did a "bo"
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It's a good guide, and hey guys? It's cheese it's supposed to work on trickery and getting lucky to win.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.britishfoodinamerica.com/images/editorial/Dairy-Number/Cheddar-Cheese.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UieYyh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8ATr1h.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mtb79.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/m2o39.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5B9Ka.jpg)
