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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CzW1j.png)
I think the first thing that is clear is that snipe was probably too good against BL. With approximately 90s (approximate build+travel time for one Z wave) before any 2 fights, ghosts could almost negate 4/5 of a BL for free! Against ultras, snipe was not so good, except during the first burst of damage. Ultras, of course, have plenty of other weaknesses.
The conclusion I think we can make is that, if there is no composition to cost effectively destroy the ghosts, then they are too good against BL. If the only option is a Z ground attack, with a high tank count, on certain maps, would T be impenetrable*?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wnWJ6.png)
I think it should be clear, after the patch, that ghosts are no longer by default as efficient against Hive units.
After the patch, for 90s idle, ghosts will do less than 1/2 of a BL in damage. It takes 100 energy for the ghost to be cost effective (1:1) against BL. That means ghosts will only be cost effective 45s after they are created (so 90s in total), and 180s (3 MINUTES!) after running out of energy. I suppose the fact that ghosts will be only worth half as much as before should be obvious by the 1/2 cut in snipe damage.
But the real point, I think, is that ghosts can still be cost efficient with enough time. The question is if the extra time to accumulate energy is something that can be worked around. Will it be worthwhile to have 40 of your food be worth only 20 food in the next fight? Would you be able to survive the fight?
My suspicion is that the buff against infestors will play a role. As long as infestors are needed against viking/raven, ghosts can be efficient against that component of the Z army, though inefficient against BL. Ultimately, the difficulty of army composition and control is increased, and ghosts, regardless of map, cannot deal with BL alone.
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*Addendum
1. I DON'T think that there is no composition to beat a ghost/tank massing T. 20 ghosts and 15 tanks is the equivalent of 125+ banelings. A baneling carpet bomb can reliably clear out such an immobile defense, and force a production reset in Z's favor.
2. Regardless, I can understand ghosts killing BL for free is a bit too much, but ghosts are in general fairly inefficient against everything else (lings banes ultras). I personally think it's a map issue; if the map allows T to deal with lings/banes/ultras extremely efficiently without ever being exposed positionally, then that needs to be addressed.
3. It seems Blizzard's solution is that they don't think T can hold a spread out position anyways, so they are simply going to reduce the cost efficiency of holding a single location.
4. People have thrown around the idea that ghosts can be used to shoot non-Hive units. I think you can imagine what an awful idea it is to be shooting lings/drones or even banes with ghosts. Just do the math, it is absolutely inefficient. Ghosts will remain potentially efficient against infestor+BL.
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nice analysis!
i think though in the 1.4.3 chart it should say 150 with 3 ghosts vs ultra for every 90s not 250, right?
Hm so basically now, if a zerg remaxes or makes a new wave asap and attacks in 90 seconds, the terran will definitely be weaker unlike before where they could recharge energy and just snipe a shit ton again and wipe out infestor/BL easily. This will give Zerg a way to fight against this; constant waves of attacks. However if the zerg runs out of res or can't afford another wave (whether it be 2nd or 3rd) then Terran will be able to recharge energy and should be OK against the next wave whenever it comes.
I'll miss the 45 dmg snipe, but like the OP says you can now 2 shot infestors. Now ghosts can't deal with BL AND Infestor and to a lesser extent Ultra. They are way too versatile that way. Now there is more incentive to get vikings vs BLs like you're "supposed" to, while ghosts still do OK vs BL and meh against ultras but now, great vs infestors.
looking back I find it sorta funny -- before we saw ghosts in TvZ (more specifically, the time when byun was doing well in Code S and used ghosts on terminus vs... i forgot the zerg's name), I had kept insisting that Ghosts are a great choice vs BLs, instead of getting Vikings and also tanks for infestors.
Doing the calculations I kept showing why ghosts were good, showing how much energy a ghost would have between possible zerg attack waves, how much "dps" a ghost could do in a battle with snipe + normal attack vs a viking, and also that ghosts could deal with infestors unlike Vikings. But no one seemed to think so until Idra said that ghosts were really good but no one used them and then much later when MVP showed the power of mass ghosts in the GSL.
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OP, you forget that pre-patch they can snipe all of those overlords before they drop anything. ghosts are not inefficient at all at killing banelings, 1 shot 1 kill, just shift click or if you want to use the bug, use your scroll wheel and watch ur full energy ghosts kill 8 banelings each for free without them getting within 5 hexes of your ghosts. post patch it won't work so well, as it shouldn't. terrans don't need yet another cost effective way to kill zerglings and banelings, vikings are great at killing broodlords, marauders are roflmao good at killing ultralisks. and saying that using energy to kill units is inefficient seems...very wrong, dropping ghosts on mineral lines may not be spectacular, but it doesn't seem that bad either, higher dps vs light, able to emp queens to stop transfuse, and you can snipe several drones if they try to run away, obviously you need ghosts to defend big broodlord pushes, but the 5+ minutes it takes a zerg to go from lair to broodlords should be sufficient time to make use of ghost's energy before a big broodlord fight, not to mention no good zerg is going to bank up 2k+ gas and minerals for the chance to build a asinine number of broodlords right as they rush to hive to see them die from a handful of well spread vikings. the point of this whole ghost change is that ghosts can kill every low tech unit with 1-3 shots (except roaches i think) from at least 2x the range of the opposition, if not 10x and as you say they come into play with 3 snipes if you get the energy upgrade (no reason to ever not imo unless 2 snipes/ghost are rly gunna save ur ass.) and in late game compositions it makes it nearly impossible to be remotely close to cost efficient as zerg, tanks out range your infestors so fungaling marines should really never happen against a terran that controls correctly (yes, this means that correct play dictates not moving groups of marines beyond 4 hexes infront of your tanks unless your prepared to lose them, assuming the zerg has infestors), or at least not without sacrificing several infestors to do so, which is bad, losing an infestor without trading at least 20 marines per infestor is just horribly bad for you, and even then its questionable, marines build in what, 20 seconds? and cost little enough for a muling terran to not give a fuck if they can kill a few infestors so long as they aren't saccing bases/large chunks of eco in the process.
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On February 12 2012 17:14 Dbla08 wrote:
OP, you forget that pre-patch they can snipe all of those overlords before they drop anything. ghosts are not inefficient at all at killing banelings, 1 shot 1 kill, just shift click or if you want to use the bug, use your scroll wheel and watch ur full energy ghosts kill 8 banelings each for free without them getting within 5 hexes of your ghosts. post patch it won't work so well, as it shouldn't. terrans don't need yet another cost effective way to kill zerglings and banelings, vikings are great at killing broodlords, marauders are roflmao good at killing ultralisks. and saying that using energy to kill units is inefficient seems...very wrong, dropping ghosts on mineral lines may not be spectacular, but it doesn't seem that bad either, higher dps vs light, able to emp queens to stop transfuse, and you can snipe several drones if they try to run away, obviously you need ghosts to defend big broodlord pushes, but the 5+ minutes it takes a zerg to go from lair to broodlords should be sufficient time to make use of ghost's energy before a big broodlord fight, not to mention no good zerg is going to bank up 2k+ gas and minerals for the chance to build a asinine number of broodlords right as they rush to hive to see them die from a handful of well spread vikings. the point of this whole ghost change is that ghosts can kill every low tech unit with 1-3 shots (except roaches i think) from at least 2x the range of the opposition, if not 10x and as you say they come into play with 3 snipes if you get the energy upgrade (no reason to ever not imo unless 2 snipes/ghost are rly gunna save ur ass.) and in late game compositions it makes it nearly impossible to be remotely close to cost efficient as zerg, tanks out range your infestors so fungaling marines should really never happen against a terran that controls correctly (yes, this means that correct play dictates not moving groups of marines beyond 4 hexes infront of your tanks unless your prepared to lose them, assuming the zerg has infestors), or at least not without sacrificing several infestors to do so, which is bad, losing an infestor without trading at least 20 marines per infestor is just horribly bad for you, and even then its questionable, marines build in what, 20 seconds? and cost little enough for a muling terran to not give a fuck if they can kill a few infestors so long as they aren't saccing bases/large chunks of eco in the process.
Hahaha so much theory crafting here it made me ROFLMAO.......what do u think snipe is? whack a mole? You think banelings are as big as ultras?
P.S. I dont think even MVP marineking or MMA can accurate snipe 8 banelings per ghost among a sea of ling baneling rolling towards your army
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I think he was talking about using the new scroll-click snipe and just dragging the cursor all over the banes. It wouldn't kill them all but it sure as hell could do a ton of work. However, each ghost has a slight delay between snipes don't they? So I don't think it's actually that powerful even in the current patch. They still are effective against infestors and they'll no be useless against T3 tech. It's just adjusting when you get ghosts and how many.
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thank you op! this is what a lot of terrans dont get. ghosts are still going to be effective against everything they are supposed to be effective against.
with a zerg late game composition of ultra/ broodlord, ling, bling corruptor, which is more or less what you would expect against a marine, tank, viking, medivac army, you would not even need ghosts to hold the push. in fact, you would crush the zerg with a semi decent marine split, good tank positioning and semi decent viking micro.
add infestors to the mix and its more complicated because fungal growth completely removes the ability to micro, making the damage you take from hive units a fuck ton more difficult to deal with.
with the buff to ghost damage vs casters ghosts are now a means to deal with infestors which are singled out quickly and energy efficiently and you still have emp for clumped up infestors. dealing with hive tech units on their own is really not that hard to do. have you seen what marines do to broodlords? ultras are laughable because of the attack glitch. so all you really have to do is take infestors out of the picture and the fight evens out.
the problem with ghosts snipe damage at the moment is that you basically trade energy for a fuck ton of zerg supply and resources with a few simple clicks. although i disagree with the extent of the reduction of snipe damage, i do think blizzard is moving in the right direction. ghosts are becoming a specialist unit for dealing with casters and not a mass a fuck ton of them to make a broodlord ball evaporate in a matter of seconds unit.
what terran players dont realize is that as a zerg, you can't deal with terran late game army without tier 3. hive units are by no means overpowered at all, they are necessary and without infestors they still melt away to marines lol. ghost will still be viable. the difference is that they will be units you go to, to counter infestors and not to counter everything.
still think they should make the base snipe damage 50 to biological -25 to massive though. you can still 2 shot infestors while making them viable vs other small units and overseers, but not too strong against expensive units.
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On February 12 2012 17:14 Dbla08 wrote:
OP, you forget that pre-patch they can snipe all of those overlords before they drop anything. ghosts are not inefficient at all at killing banelings, 1 shot 1 kill, just shift click or if you want to use the bug, use your scroll wheel and watch ur full energy ghosts kill 8 banelings each for free without them getting within 5 hexes of your ghosts. post patch it won't work so well, as it shouldn't. terrans don't need yet another cost effective way to kill zerglings and banelings, vikings are great at killing broodlords, marauders are roflmao good at killing ultralisks. and saying that using energy to kill units is inefficient seems...very wrong, dropping ghosts on mineral lines may not be spectacular, but it doesn't seem that bad either, higher dps vs light, able to emp queens to stop transfuse, and you can snipe several drones if they try to run away, obviously you need ghosts to defend big broodlord pushes, but the 5+ minutes it takes a zerg to go from lair to broodlords should be sufficient time to make use of ghost's energy before a big broodlord fight, not to mention no good zerg is going to bank up 2k+ gas and minerals for the chance to build a asinine number of broodlords right as they rush to hive to see them die from a handful of well spread vikings. the point of this whole ghost change is that ghosts can kill every low tech unit with 1-3 shots (except roaches i think) from at least 2x the range of the opposition, if not 10x and as you say they come into play with 3 snipes if you get the energy upgrade (no reason to ever not imo unless 2 snipes/ghost are rly gunna save ur ass.) and in late game compositions it makes it nearly impossible to be remotely close to cost efficient as zerg, tanks out range your infestors so fungaling marines should really never happen against a terran that controls correctly (yes, this means that correct play dictates not moving groups of marines beyond 4 hexes infront of your tanks unless your prepared to lose them, assuming the zerg has infestors), or at least not without sacrificing several infestors to do so, which is bad, losing an infestor without trading at least 20 marines per infestor is just horribly bad for you, and even then its questionable, marines build in what, 20 seconds? and cost little enough for a muling terran to not give a fuck if they can kill a few infestors so long as they aren't saccing bases/large chunks of eco in the process.
shift clicking snipe is actually bugged and doesnt work, scrolling isnt a bug but remapping keys.
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Not taking into account the APM cost of sniping is a ridiculous and glaring oversight.
APM is a very limited and valuable resource. Trying to snipe at even the top Korean level means that the Terran will not be able to macro or micro anything else during that time.
For illustration of the point: If zealots did 2x the damage they did now, but they needed manual targeting per strike, how useless would that be?
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The nerf seems overly harsh to me though I don't know exactly how terran would do without ghosts against broodlords. Perhaps viking and possibly raven are actually just fine but they were being overshadowed by the superior option of ghosts which was probably too strong.
The change isn't final though, maybe they'll change it to something like 30+20 instead which would seem reasonable. 8 shots for a BL (up from 6 but down from 10) seems alright. They would also still be able to 1-shot banelings.
If they keep it like this I just think ghosts will slowly fade out from TvZ, requiring 40% more shots seems to much. Maybe terrans will just start to play more aggresive against broods or use their immobility agianst them. I'd love it if they just gave the raven a very slight nudge to being more effective though, like giving seeker missile 1 more range or letting it do 10% more damage.
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On February 12 2012 19:50 link0 wrote:
Not taking into account the APM cost of sniping is a ridiculous and glaring oversight.
APM is a very limited and valuable resource. Trying to snipe at even the top Korean level means that the Terran will not be able to macro or micro anything else during that time.
For illustration of the point: If zealots did 2x the damage they did now, but they needed manual targeting per strike, how useless would that be?
2 gate would be OP?
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8Wfcc.png)
I don't understand why nerf snipe when Terran is performing very badly lategame.
First notice a few things TvZ is *balanced* with overall stats, but it is 65% win rate early game for terran and 35% lategame (You have to click on the imgae to enlarge). Meaning snipe will only make the MU worse.
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Can we see the list of games this chart showcases? What level are these players?
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On February 12 2012 16:28 roam wrote:
After the patch, for 90s idle, ghosts will do less than 1/2 of a BL in damage. It takes 100 energy for the ghost to be cost effective (1:1) against BL. That means ghosts will only be cost effective 45s after they are created (so 90s in total), and 180s (3 MINUTES!) after running out of energy. I suppose the fact that ghosts will be only worth half as much as before should be obvious by the 1/2 cut in snipe damage.
well high templar are basically useless in the first 45s after building, at least ghost are still useful
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Are you serious? Even if they are cost efficient in theory, you would have to spam the snipe like a madman and its not like snipe has 30 range, so before you can snipe >60 times against 6 BLs some of your ghosts will die to broodlings/fungal/banelings for sure, which makes them NOT cost effective in any number above 3 or 4. Also you will not always have time to build up 200/200 energy for high amounts of ghosts and if the Zerg decides to push at an unexpected time you are really vulnerable. Late Game TvZ is really back and forth if the terran manages to stay in the game, you can't afford to build up energy for a couple of minutes to be able to fight.
If the patch goes through all ghosts will be good for is sniping infestors and EMP, they will be a onedimensional anti-spellcaster unit for every matchup/needed in TvP against shields.
I don't know how Blizzard wants terran to fight Broodlord/Infestor in theory, as both Broodlords and Infestors have more range than Vikings and the ghosts cant even come close to the Infestors without dieing to Broodlings, and consider that terran has to get every single infestor before he can allow his vikings to come close to the broodlords if he wants to fight with a lot of vikings instead of a lot of ghosts, because 1 infestor with full energy takes down like 4-10 vikings to half hp and they can't even flee from Corruptors anymore. The goal against Broodlords should be that you kill them asap in every matchup, because thats how Broodlords work for Zerg, they are a very positional and slow unit, but they make up for that by just being extremely strong if they stay in the fight unharmed. Having to kill the spellcasters behind the Broodlords first is bullshit and I can't see any way that it can work for a late game terran without sloppiness of the Zerg, in a straight up battle.
Being forced to play with a lot of vikings against Broodlords/Infestors is like playing Mutalisks in ZvZ against Infestors, it just doesn't work... And even if you barely hold because you overextend on Vikings, once you have like 6-10 leftover vikings the zerg just lols and runs you over with 8 Ultralisks + mass Zergling/Baneling.
I think mixing in few numbers of thors is quite nice, because they are very bulky and tank a lot of broodlings so the marines get very strong if the zerg can't get a lot of Banelings, but thors alone can't fight anything against a good opponent and they don't really solve the problem of getting near the Broodlords they just buy you some time and make sure that the Zerg can't clump his air units too much, also they take a lot of time to build.
The problem remains that Terran doesn't have a single strong mid- or lategame unit like the broodlord/colossus/archon that is just plain good in an army battle. They are all easily countered if your opponent knows what to do. Every standard matchup for Terran is based around the marine (and partially the marauder), because they are the only units in the terran arsenal that are just plain good if you know how to use them without a "but" involved once your enemy starts to build unit X (which especially zerg can do very fast, but its also funny how gateway units for Protoss counter every single high tech unit of terran. Feedback alone counters ALL of the 4 highest tech units for terran (ghosts not included) up to a point where they are useless in an army vs. army clash if the Feedbacks connect). The problem is not that they can be countered, the problem is that it doesn't take a lot of effort for the enemy to counter them. I mean the marine is countered by Fungals, Storm, Colossi etc., but the difference to the other terran units is that the amount of effort and ressources spent into the marine counter is enough that you yourself can react to that. If you want to react to a zerg that is countering your BCs for example, you will not have the chance to do so, because the plain Infestor/Corruptor will do just fine against BCs and there is nothing to exploit after that. edit: Tanks of course are decent in TvZ midgame because they are extremely strong against Ling/Baneling and Infestors without BLs, but once Broodlords enter the field they get a lot trickier to use and usually just waste a lot of supply if you got too many tanks earlier.
So I think it should be reasonable to understand even if you are a Zerg player that the snipe nerf is a realization for a lot of terran players that like to play late games without all in timing pushes that Blizzard doesn't want that to happen, so it makes them sad and angry. I personally can understand that very well, even if the snipe nerf is justified. Thats not what I think about when playing terran when I know how exciting and diverse the BW terran matchups are, with strong late game armies in every matchup and exciting battles where the winner is NOT 99% obvious in most games before the armies clash.
late edit:
By the way I don't think the snipe nerf is completely unjustified, I just think it is either completely over the top (down to 35-40 damage would be fine) or tries to solve the problem from the wrong angle... they could try different approaches to make snipe less strong, for example a longer cooldown or more energy costs, which wouldn't hurt so much in terms of micro required.
I personally am too stupid to use ghosts anyway, I love using them but I don't really get the transition into them right... I'm either too far behind anyway so they can't turn the game around or I fuck up the micro in the huge deciding battles. I had like a handful of games where I'd say that I won because of ghosts, and most of them were not really because snipe was extremely strong against Broodlords and Ultralisks (maybe partly) but more because they are really annoying when harassing expansions while cloaked with nukes & overseer snipe 
In most of my TvZs I don't really get to use ghosts at all though, I'm not really playing enough games for good data and not playing on a high enough level that both me and the Zerg get past the midgame safely without making game deciding mistakes before that in 80% of the games.
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On February 12 2012 21:54 Bommes wrote:
I don't know how Blizzard wants terran to fight Broodlord/Infestor in theory, as both Broodlords and Infestors have more range than Vikings and the ghosts cant even come close to the Infestors without dieing to Broodlings, and consider that terran has to get every single infestor before he can allow his vikings to come close to the broodlords if he wants to fight with a lot of vikings instead of a lot of ghosts, because 1 infestor with full energy takes down like 4-10 vikings to half hp and they can't even flee from Corruptors anymore. The goal against Broodlords should be that you kill them asap in every matchup, because thats how Broodlords work for Zerg, they are a very positional and slow unit, but they make up for that by just being extremely strong if they stay in the fight unharmed. Having to kill the spellcasters behind the Broodlords first is bullshit and I can't see any way that it can work for a late game terran without sloppiness of the Zerg, in a straight up battle.
well imho BL/Infestor needs to be looked at.
it the same issue in PvZ, a Zerg who is playing it right will never die (JYP vs. Dimaga at HSC4 comes in mind) , because they get nearly unattackable due to fungals.
Its funny that the only solution is to do a archon toilet...that mothership became even standard gameplay 8X...
gonna be funny, how Protoss or Terran will be dealing with this it in HotS
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On February 12 2012 22:30 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 21:54 Bommes wrote:
I don't know how Blizzard wants terran to fight Broodlord/Infestor in theory, as both Broodlords and Infestors have more range than Vikings and the ghosts cant even come close to the Infestors without dieing to Broodlings, and consider that terran has to get every single infestor before he can allow his vikings to come close to the broodlords if he wants to fight with a lot of vikings instead of a lot of ghosts, because 1 infestor with full energy takes down like 4-10 vikings to half hp and they can't even flee from Corruptors anymore. The goal against Broodlords should be that you kill them asap in every matchup, because thats how Broodlords work for Zerg, they are a very positional and slow unit, but they make up for that by just being extremely strong if they stay in the fight unharmed. Having to kill the spellcasters behind the Broodlords first is bullshit and I can't see any way that it can work for a late game terran without sloppiness of the Zerg, in a straight up battle.
well imho BL/Infestor needs to be looked at. it the same issue in PvZ, a Zerg who is playing it right will never die , because they get nearly unattackable due to fungals. Its funny that the only solution is da toilet...that mothership became even standard gameplay, because everything else simply does not work.
What are you talking about? Unattackable?
Siege tanks have 13range, which gives your 9range vikings a micro range of 4 to attack 9.5range broodlords, while being safe against 9range fungals.
Even if a zerg wastes half of his fungal energy to fungal 1-2 vikings by using the 2radius of fungal to have 11 range, you can always have tank protected vikings against Broodlords. (tanks 2shoot infestors)
Tank/Viking + whatever terran composition (usually: hellion/thor, marine/medivac) against broodlord/infestor/corruptor + whatever zerg composition (usually: roach/baneling, zergling/baneling, roach/zergling) can hold against each other pretty well.
I agree that for P it's a bit more difficult, but storms and Vortex are pretty great vs clumped broods/corruptors, Voidrays and Blink stalkers vs unclumped broods/corruptors. Also PvZ as it is being played right now usually doesn't reach this stage anyways. It's won/lost by the huge 2base Protoss allin, everything after that is just one player fighting to survive a bit longer and hoping for the opponent to screw extremly.
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Terrans now have to play better to win, it's a good thing.
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well its really nice that you can easier 2 shot infestors after the patch, but transfuse has a range of 7, which means to emp or snipe, you are in the range of broodlords and infestors, so a good zerg can prevent the ghosts from killing their queens unless the terran risks a side attack with their ghosts. Before a queen could negate a single ghost pretty easily, sure there were broodlord losses but all in all you used 150 minerals and 2 supply to negate 200 minerals 100 gas and 2 supply. Sounds good to me already. (queens also provide anti air, but they are at risk when fending of vikings)
Now a transfuse will block 5 snipes. So when it comes to energy regeneration a queen has 50 less at the start, but when a ghost has 2 new snipes, the queen can block 5 snipes. So now 2 supply 150 minerals, block 500/250 and 5 supply after the change.
So i guess its easy to say, that snipe was only a soft conter to both t3 units, that provided alot of durability compared to the weak marines, that also act as a soft conter, but die fairly easy to splash damage. After the nerf, its more a transfuse hard conters snipe, making it hard to snipe even a single broodlord (you need to land 11 snipes on a broodlord before 1 transfuse hits). And snipe never was effective against ultras even before (the zerg simply ran over a ghost using terran).
So with the queen as a direct snipe conter, the skill is not meant to be rebalanced, since it was perfectly balanced before in tvz. But to be repurposed and i don't like that at the end terran has lost another stable composition that doesn't need hardcore micro against a simple a click.
I mean a zerg not getting queens against ghosts, is like a terran not getting vikings or marines against broodlords. Why defend them by patching something out ? I mean mass ghosts didn't worked in the first place, but why not let people find that out by themself.
With that aside, i guess blizzard wants to see more marine micro, because macroing like crazy and pressuring a zerg player the whole time, so marines work against broodlord infestor looks really impressive. But this role change is really funny to see. The terran sending wave after wave against the zerg deathball.
Anyway you can still macro against a zerg without having to attack all the time, you just have to do the same thing as you did with the ghosts, replace your bio with higher tech.
Another thing i could imagine, that blizzard wants to force mass raven with the seeker missile, but for that the seeker missile cost has to be changed, as it has the cost of the heat seeker missile still. (the speed buff only removed some utility)
I guess nuke was a problem for blizzard also, as it seems to be effective against zerg, but in reality zerg is just wrong at assuming pulling away workers from a nuke works, the nuke is almost cost effective when nuking a hatch, so you have to stop those. which is fairly easy with spines and spores (just reposi them if the terran wants to nuke those)
And before you complain about transfuse ... I use queens with my t3 units, simply because one queen a 2 supply unit, can heal up big units with 500 hp and has 150 hp themself, making them better then ultras against non focused damage. And if you can't put creep on the whole map lategame, you did something wrong, so mobility is no issue.
I don't mind about snipe really, my problem is that zergs don't use their race to the fullest, making it really painful to see a zerg lose to mass ghosts, or still attack with their ultras after the next wave of lings already died.
On February 12 2012 22:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:30 freetgy wrote:On February 12 2012 21:54 Bommes wrote:
I don't know how Blizzard wants terran to fight Broodlord/Infestor in theory, as both Broodlords and Infestors have more range than Vikings and the ghosts cant even come close to the Infestors without dieing to Broodlings, and consider that terran has to get every single infestor before he can allow his vikings to come close to the broodlords if he wants to fight with a lot of vikings instead of a lot of ghosts, because 1 infestor with full energy takes down like 4-10 vikings to half hp and they can't even flee from Corruptors anymore. The goal against Broodlords should be that you kill them asap in every matchup, because thats how Broodlords work for Zerg, they are a very positional and slow unit, but they make up for that by just being extremely strong if they stay in the fight unharmed. Having to kill the spellcasters behind the Broodlords first is bullshit and I can't see any way that it can work for a late game terran without sloppiness of the Zerg, in a straight up battle.
well imho BL/Infestor needs to be looked at. it the same issue in PvZ, a Zerg who is playing it right will never die , because they get nearly unattackable due to fungals. Its funny that the only solution is da toilet...that mothership became even standard gameplay, because everything else simply does not work. What are you talking about? Unattackable? Siege tanks have 13range, which gives your 9range vikings a micro range of 4 to attack 9.5range broodlords, while being safe against 9range fungals. Even if a zerg wastes half of his fungal energy to fungal 1-2 vikings by using the 2radius of fungal to have 11 range, you can always have tank protected vikings against Broodlords. (tanks 2shoot infestors) Tank/Viking + whatever terran composition (usually: hellion/thor, marine/medivac) against broodlord/infestor/corruptor + whatever zerg composition (usually: roach/baneling, zergling/baneling, roach/zergling) can hold against each other pretty well. I agree that for P it's a bit more difficult, but storms and Vortex are pretty great vs clumped broods/corruptors, Voidrays and Blink stalkers vs unclumped broods/corruptors. Also PvZ as it is being played right now usually doesn't reach this stage anyways. It's won/lost by the huge 2base Protoss allin, everything after that is just one player fighting to survive a bit longer and hoping for the opponent to screw extremly.
you forget that 9.5 is the broodling launch range of a broodlord, like carriers have a range of 13, but a launchrange of 8. And broodlings merely have to reach the tanks to let other tanks kill em. You could for example send a few changelings near the terran tanks and attack them with your broodlords, so the broodlings will just move the missing range of 5 to attack the tanks, you could also land multiple waves of broodlings under your broodlords and send those in. But i agree the terran has the range advantage, but not with siege tanks(they just kill themself), but with nukes. Nukes allow the terran to advance (though its 100/100 that costs you a huge lot to move forward by just a half screen). Before its a real stalemate position, where neither zerg nor terran can advance. But the zerg is in the advantage, because their composition is more cost efficient.
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On February 12 2012 23:05 FeyFey wrote:
well its really nice that you can easier 2 shot infestors after the patch, but transfuse has a range of 7, which means to emp or snipe, you are in the range of broodlords and infestors, so a good zerg can prevent the ghosts from killing their queens unless the terran risks a side attack with their ghosts. Before a queen could negate a single ghost pretty easily, sure there were broodlord losses but all in all you used 150 minerals and 2 supply to negate 200 minerals 100 gas and 2 supply. Sounds good to me already. (queens also provide anti air, but they are at risk when fending of vikings)
Now a transfuse will block 5 snipes. So when it comes to energy regeneration a queen has 50 less at the start, but when a ghost has 2 new snipes, the queen can block 5 snipes. So now 2 supply 150 minerals, block 500/250 and 5 supply after the change.
So i guess its easy to say, that snipe was only a soft conter to both t3 units, that provided alot of durability compared to the weak marines, that also act as a soft conter, but die fairly easy to splash damage. After the nerf, its more a transfuse hard conters snipe, making it hard to snipe even a single broodlord (you need to land 11 snipes on a broodlord before 1 transfuse hits). And snipe never was effective against ultras even before (the zerg simply ran over a ghost using terran).
So with the queen as a direct snipe conter, the skill is not meant to be rebalanced, since it was perfectly balanced before in tvz. But to be repurposed and i don't like that at the end terran has lost another stable composition that doesn't need hardcore micro against a simple a click.
I mean a zerg not getting queens against ghosts, is like a terran not getting vikings or marines against broodlords. Why defend them by patching something out ? I mean mass ghosts didn't worked in the first place, but why not let people find that out by themself.
With that aside, i guess blizzard wants to see more marine micro, because macroing like crazy and pressuring a zerg player the whole time, so marines work against broodlord infestor looks really impressive. But this role change is really funny to see. The terran sending wave after wave against the zerg deathball.
Anyway you can still macro against a zerg without having to attack all the time, you just have to do the same thing as you did with the ghosts, replace your bio with higher tech.
Another thing i could imagine, that blizzard wants to force mass raven with the seeker missile, but for that the seeker missile cost has to be changed, as it has the cost of the heat seeker missile still. (the speed buff only removed some utility)
And before you complain about transfuse ... I use queens with my t3 units, simply because one queen a 2 supply unit, can heal up big units with 500 hp and has 150 hp themself, making them better then ultras against non focused damage. And if you can't put creep on the whole map lategame, you did something wrong, so mobility is no issue.
I don't mind about snipe really, my problem is that zergs don't use their race to the fullest, making it really painful to see a zerg lose to mass ghosts, or still attack with their ultras after the next wave of lings already died.
yeah, it's a shame that the game is not being balanced around what you do in your offrace sessions, but rather about what people that play 8+ hours a day do.
Also it is a shame, that you whine about Zerg's not using their full potential, when just a few sentences above you talk about how Terran can deal with what Zerg does without Ghosts by using less bio or ravens or more pressure...
On February 12 2012 23:05 FeyFey wrote:
you forget that 9.5 is the broodling launch range of a broodlord, like carriers have a range of 13, but a launchrange of 8. And broodlings merely have to reach the tanks to let other tanks kill em. You could for example send a few changelings near the terran tanks and attack them with your broodlords, so the broodlings will just move the missing range of 5 to attack the tanks, you could also land multiple waves of broodlings under your broodlords and send those in. But i agree the terran has the range advantage, but not with siege tanks(they just kill themself), but with nukes. Nukes allow the terran to advance (though its 100/100 that costs you a huge lot to move forward by just a half screen). Before its a real stalemate position, where neither zerg nor terran can advance. But the zerg is in the advantage, because their composition is more cost efficient.
Yeah, and you could just drop mules on Zerg bases to mine them out and don't fear Zerg macro or use HSM on cloaked banshees and fly them into broodlords... Come back when you have a serious suggestion.
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On February 12 2012 23:05 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Terrans now have to play better to win, it's a good thing.
Yea, and now they actually have to commit just as much as Zerg players do to BL's and Ultras.
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please, i did not understand OP.... can you be clearer?
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Interesting analysis! I think that ghosts will still be used but we will also most probably see some more maras and vikings in play. Also, I think that people seem to forget that nukes exists... ghosts arent only about snipe. There was a game between Morrow and.. cant remember the Z.. the basically killed him with only nukes 
EDIT: It seems that the raven might come into play a bit more now aswell. Either way, I am not affraid of not being able to adapt to this patch!
Peace
Dan
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On February 13 2012 00:04 xTrim wrote:
please, i did not understand OP.... can you be clearer?
He's saying at with the ghost upgrade, ghosts will be cost-effective against a broodlord 90 seconds after being built. After that, they'll be cost effective 3 minutes after launching snipes and being at 0 energy.
They'll won't be a great idea against ultralisks at all post-patch. They weren't exactly a hard counter to ultralisks pre-patch, but Zerg remax 3x faster than Terran, and full energy ghosts were simply amazing against both broodlords and ultralisks.
On February 14 2012 01:23 dotDash wrote:Interesting analysis! I think that ghosts will still be used but we will also most probably see some more maras and vikings in play. Also, I think that people seem to forget that nukes exists... ghosts arent only about snipe. There was a game between Morrow and.. cant remember the Z.. the basically killed him with only nukes EDIT: It seems that the raven might come into play a bit more now aswell. Either way, I am not affraid of not being able to adapt to this patch! Peace Dan
I'm not 100% sure Leenock had his sound/nuke warnings on. He just sat in nukes. I don't think he thought Morrow had a realisitc chance of taking the series.
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On February 14 2012 01:57 boxturtle wrote:
I'm not 100% sure Leenock had his sound/nuke warnings on. He just sat in nukes. I don't think he thought Morrow had a realisitc chance of taking the series.
I believe that it was just so many nukes that Leenock lost it pretty much. Imagine being in that situation.. you have like 6-7bases, your army and techbuildings that can be targeted WHILE you macro and need to make sure there isn't a push coming out soonish behind the nuke. It requires an insanely solid gameplay and mind to cope with that tbh.
Peace
Dan
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On February 12 2012 23:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 23:05 FeyFey wrote:
you forget that 9.5 is the broodling launch range of a broodlord, like carriers have a range of 13, but a launchrange of 8. And broodlings merely have to reach the tanks to let other tanks kill em. You could for example send a few changelings near the terran tanks and attack them with your broodlords, so the broodlings will just move the missing range of 5 to attack the tanks, you could also land multiple waves of broodlings under your broodlords and send those in. But i agree the terran has the range advantage, but not with siege tanks(they just kill themself), but with nukes. Nukes allow the terran to advance (though its 100/100 that costs you a huge lot to move forward by just a half screen). Before its a real stalemate position, where neither zerg nor terran can advance. But the zerg is in the advantage, because their composition is more cost efficient. Yeah, and you could just drop mules on Zerg bases to mine them out and don't fear Zerg macro or use HSM on cloaked banshees and fly them into broodlords... Come back when you have a serious suggestion.
with the speed buff on the seeker missile you can't fly in banshees that easily again, but before it was nice to blow up idle banelings. And if you want to scout yes its nice to scan drop a mule and run it around the base if you expect your opponent not having something home, its best against other terrans though and most of the time more worth then 2 scans. Against zerg its enough to use a proxy racks for scouting, cheaper then a single scan and way more effective. And the mule shouldn't work because of unit speed on creep.
And i wouldn't consider zerg my offrace, somehow my dice likes zerg, another reason is that after playing bit more zerg my ladder rank increases. Of course its just eu master and yes i only play a few games a day, but if something works if nothing happens, its best to do it instead of just sitting and waiting for the opponent to lose patience. Forcing your opponent to do mistakes is something that wins alot of games. And if you see a zerg sending units that doesn't cost a bit at you, you tend to get impatient and don't think, yeah i got time to charge up some yamatos.
Someone playing zerg 8 hours a day doesn't have to mean they know alot about their race, they could just train standard stuff 8 hours a day and have no idea about anything else. Not that i think i know alot about zerg, i just use what i found out which isn't much. But that the burrow banelings while you attack move was more or less becoming public by an offracing pro player is something to consider.
Anyway why force evolution in a game which has an expiration date (hots release). If macro only works stick to it, if everyone does you will be fine till the last expansion is released. I want to use every neat micro trick as much as possible and see if they are worth it or not and it sometimes comes over me to share personal experience not really caring if people listen or don't.
Sorry for the off topic anyway, will be interesting to see how the tvz lategame evolves with the new snipe, being highly effective against infestors now. (when cloaked infestors that aren't controlled often flee outside of the snipe range on creep and you only get off 2 snipes on most of them.)
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You have a typo after 1.4.3 - Three Ghosts after 90's listed as 250 when it should be 150.
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i agree with your points, but this seems like a drastic change. im not sure if the situation warrants this big of a nerf for ghosts
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On February 12 2012 17:14 Dbla08 wrote:
OP, you forget that pre-patch they can snipe all of those overlords before they drop anything. ghosts are not inefficient at all at killing banelings, 1 shot 1 kill, just shift click or if you want to use the bug, use your scroll wheel and watch ur full energy ghosts kill 8 banelings each for free without them getting within 5 hexes of your ghosts. post patch it won't work so well, as it shouldn't. terrans don't need yet another cost effective way to kill zerglings and banelings, vikings are great at killing broodlords, marauders are roflmao good at killing ultralisks. and saying that using energy to kill units is inefficient seems...very wrong, dropping ghosts on mineral lines may not be spectacular, but it doesn't seem that bad either, higher dps vs light, able to emp queens to stop transfuse, and you can snipe several drones if they try to run away, obviously you need ghosts to defend big broodlord pushes, but the 5+ minutes it takes a zerg to go from lair to broodlords should be sufficient time to make use of ghost's energy before a big broodlord fight, not to mention no good zerg is going to bank up 2k+ gas and minerals for the chance to build a asinine number of broodlords right as they rush to hive to see them die from a handful of well spread vikings. the point of this whole ghost change is that ghosts can kill every low tech unit with 1-3 shots (except roaches i think) from at least 2x the range of the opposition, if not 10x and as you say they come into play with 3 snipes if you get the energy upgrade (no reason to ever not imo unless 2 snipes/ghost are rly gunna save ur ass.) and in late game compositions it makes it nearly impossible to be remotely close to cost efficient as zerg, tanks out range your infestors so fungaling marines should really never happen against a terran that controls correctly (yes, this means that correct play dictates not moving groups of marines beyond 4 hexes infront of your tanks unless your prepared to lose them, assuming the zerg has infestors), or at least not without sacrificing several infestors to do so, which is bad, losing an infestor without trading at least 20 marines per infestor is just horribly bad for you, and even then its questionable, marines build in what, 20 seconds? and cost little enough for a muling terran to not give a fuck if they can kill a few infestors so long as they aren't saccing bases/large chunks of eco in the process.
L O L
YEs standard TvZ in mid game with ghosts? lol. Marines don't build in 20 secs, they build in 25 secs (compared to lings in 24 secs).Why all this theorycrafting? Which dream world are u living in....
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On February 12 2012 16:28 roam wrote:I think the first thing that is clear is that snipe was probably too good against BL. With approximately 90s (approximate build+travel time for one Z wave) before any 2 fights, ghosts could almost negate 4/5 of a BL for free! Against ultras, snipe was not so good, except during the first burst of damage. Ultras, of course, have plenty of other weaknesses. The conclusion I think we can make is that, if there is no composition to cost effectively destroy the ghosts, then they are too good against BL. If the only option is a Z ground attack, with a high tank count, on certain maps, would T be impenetrable*? I think it should be clear, after the patch, that ghosts are no longer by default as efficient against Hive units. After the patch, for 90s idle, ghosts will do less than 1/2 of a BL in damage. It takes 100 energy for the ghost to be cost effective (1:1) against BL. That means ghosts will only be cost effective 45s after they are created (so 90s in total), and 180s (3 MINUTES!) after running out of energy. I suppose the fact that ghosts will be only worth half as much as before should be obvious by the 1/2 cut in snipe damage. But the real point, I think, is that ghosts can still be cost efficient with enough time. The question is if the extra time to accumulate energy is something that can be worked around. Will it be worthwhile to have 40 of your food be worth only 20 food in the next fight? Would you be able to survive the fight? My suspicion is that the buff against infestors will play a role. As long as infestors are needed against viking/raven, ghosts can be efficient against that component of the Z army, though inefficient against BL. Ultimately, the difficulty of army composition and control is increased, and ghosts, regardless of map, cannot deal with BL alone.
So is your mathematical analysis essentially just that you multiplied a number by 2, or was there more analysis in here that I missed? It seems like you're saying that full energy ghosts are still cost effective (a term you chose not to extrapolate on) against BLs.
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On February 12 2012 21:37 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:28 roam wrote:
After the patch, for 90s idle, ghosts will do less than 1/2 of a BL in damage. It takes 100 energy for the ghost to be cost effective (1:1) against BL. That means ghosts will only be cost effective 45s after they are created (so 90s in total), and 180s (3 MINUTES!) after running out of energy. I suppose the fact that ghosts will be only worth half as much as before should be obvious by the 1/2 cut in snipe damage.
well high templar are basically useless in the first 45s after building, at least ghost are still useful
Maybe u have heard of feedback or this unit called an Acrhon
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On February 12 2012 23:32 BushidoSnipr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 23:05 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Terrans now have to play better to win, it's a good thing. Yea, and now they actually have to commit just as much as Zerg players do to BL's and Ultras.
That sounds really good on paper, but once you realize that a terrans tech switch is much more expensive (production buildings) and there is no way to safely expand like a zerg does (unless its a silly map like Shakuras), it starts to look quite a lot worse for terran.
Besides, terrans arguably already need to play much better to win - its the most mechanical race with the highest skill cap. If you want proof, just look at the huge disparity between kr and foreigner terrans. Making it so that they "have to play better to win" (which is just a backwards way to say "terran op") is going to make the race irrelevant outside Korea if these trends continue.
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The assumption in the argument is that the ghosts actually get off the snipes, which may or may not happen. Needed to add that.
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I'm fucking annoyed by all these pathetic people telling Terran to just fucking play better.
Any statistic is not looked at and declared invalid:
Lategame Terran weakness; to low number of games.
Infestor Broodlord to cost- effective; no, Protoss needs to get better positioning and Terran just needs to use Vikings.
Remax on Ultra/Ling; no, Terran just has to scout better and adapt (like, WTF! Once we see ultras pop out they are in our base before Marauders pop!?)
Use Queens to nullify Ghost Snipe; no, Snipe hits to fast and is unpredictable (LOL unless there's 11 Ghost, ur Broodlord instadies, and even then, Fungal has a bigger range than Ghost, so you can just kill those with Fungal + superior Broodlord range)
Seriously, the Zergs are so busy declaring anything invalid even though there's proof around everywhere, IT IS FUCKING PATHETIC!
Instead of learning to deal with Ghost; better start screaming imbalance and let Blizzard fix it, instead of trying, you know, Zerglings vs Ghost? Oh noes, Tanks! Tank Ghost ImbaImba!
How about Drop/Nydus? Lol to expensive/ to hard to do/ relies on bad Terran play. ....... srsly? Dropping lings around forces an unsiege, Terrans on Ghost/Tank are more immobile than a PF!
I hate it how Blizzard seems to still have this attitude of Terran being OP. Terran micro's the crap out of his pants during fights and has by far the most demanding macro mid- battle (W + Shift + Z + clickclickclick, or worse, Select Hatches + S + Z + hold vs. 5aaaaaaaaaaaadddddgg6ss7vvvvvv, just try which one takes most time to do precise). Terran is not the EZ race, Terran is the hardest of all currently!
And yes, I am frustrated, and no, I don't think I will get banned for this post, as you know, there's a lot of truth in it, and it is not that harsh. Sorry if I offend anybody!!
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Yeah I think the nerf was a bit too much. If we aren't supposed to use Ghosts vs Hive tech, what are we supposed to use instead? The only unit we have that is at least somewhat decent vs both Ultra and BL is the Marine. Which is very lame.
If the nerf goes through then I hope they buff lategame TvZ in some other way. Like a Battlecruiser buff, or a Raven buff.
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On February 14 2012 04:30 ToastieNL wrote:
I hate it how Blizzard seems to still have this attitude of Terran being OP. Terran micro's the crap out of his pants during fights and has by far the most demanding macro mid- battle (W + Shift + Z + clickclickclick, or worse, Select Hatches + S + Z + hold vs. 5aaaaaaaaaaaadddddgg6ss7vvvvvv, just try which one takes most time to do precise). Terran is not the EZ race, Terran is the hardest of all currently!
I don't buy that terran macro is harder. Each race's macro mechanics are difficult for different reasons.
Even if terran was harder to macro, the solution would be to make their macro easier to bring it in line with zerg & protoss. Letting terran macro be extra hard and then compensating by removing the need for them to plan their unit composition in the late game is a bad way to balance a RTS game.
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On February 12 2012 21:54 Bommes wrote:
Are you serious? Even if they are cost efficient in theory, you would have to spam the snipe like a madman and its not like snipe has 30 range, so before you can snipe >60 times against 6 BLs some of your ghosts will die to broodlings/fungal/banelings for sure, which makes them NOT cost effective in any number above 3 or 4. Also you will not always have time to build up 200/200 energy for high amounts of ghosts and if the Zerg decides to push at an unexpected time you are really vulnerable. Late Game TvZ is really back and forth if the terran manages to stay in the game, you can't afford to build up energy for a couple of minutes to be able to fight.
If the patch goes through all ghosts will be good for is sniping infestors and EMP, they will be a onedimensional anti-spellcaster unit for every matchup/needed in TvP against shields.
I don't know how Blizzard wants terran to fight Broodlord/Infestor in theory, as both Broodlords and Infestors have more range than Vikings and the ghosts cant even come close to the Infestors without dieing to Broodlings, and consider that terran has to get every single infestor before he can allow his vikings to come close to the broodlords if he wants to fight with a lot of vikings instead of a lot of ghosts, because 1 infestor with full energy takes down like 4-10 vikings to half hp and they can't even flee from Corruptors anymore. The goal against Broodlords should be that you kill them asap in every matchup, because thats how Broodlords work for Zerg, they are a very positional and slow unit, but they make up for that by just being extremely strong if they stay in the fight unharmed. Having to kill the spellcasters behind the Broodlords first is bullshit and I can't see any way that it can work for a late game terran without sloppiness of the Zerg, in a straight up battle.
Being forced to play with a lot of vikings against Broodlords/Infestors is like playing Mutalisks in ZvZ against Infestors, it just doesn't work... And even if you barely hold because you overextend on Vikings, once you have like 6-10 leftover vikings the zerg just lols and runs you over with 8 Ultralisks + mass Zergling/Baneling.
I think mixing in few numbers of thors is quite nice, because they are very bulky and tank a lot of broodlings so the marines get very strong if the zerg can't get a lot of Banelings, but thors alone can't fight anything against a good opponent and they don't really solve the problem of getting near the Broodlords they just buy you some time and make sure that the Zerg can't clump his air units too much, also they take a lot of time to build.
The problem remains that Terran doesn't have a single strong mid- or lategame unit like the broodlord/colossus/archon that is just plain good in an army battle. They are all easily countered if your opponent knows what to do. Every standard matchup for Terran is based around the marine (and partially the marauder), because they are the only units in the terran arsenal that are just plain good if you know how to use them without a "but" involved once your enemy starts to build unit X (which especially zerg can do very fast, but its also funny how gateway units for Protoss counter every single high tech unit of terran. Feedback alone counters ALL of the 4 highest tech units for terran (ghosts not included) up to a point where they are useless in an army vs. army clash if the Feedbacks connect). The problem is not that they can be countered, the problem is that it doesn't take a lot of effort for the enemy to counter them. I mean the marine is countered by Fungals, Storm, Colossi etc., but the difference to the other terran units is that the amount of effort and ressources spent into the marine counter is enough that you yourself can react to that. If you want to react to a zerg that is countering your BCs for example, you will not have the chance to do so, because the plain Infestor/Corruptor will do just fine against BCs and there is nothing to exploit after that. edit: Tanks of course are decent in TvZ midgame because they are extremely strong against Ling/Baneling and Infestors without BLs, but once Broodlords enter the field they get a lot trickier to use and usually just waste a lot of supply if you got too many tanks earlier.
So I think it should be reasonable to understand even if you are a Zerg player that the snipe nerf is a realization for a lot of terran players that like to play late games without all in timing pushes that Blizzard doesn't want that to happen, so it makes them sad and angry. I personally can understand that very well, even if the snipe nerf is justified. Thats not what I think about when playing terran when I know how exciting and diverse the BW terran matchups are, with strong late game armies in every matchup and exciting battles where the winner is NOT 99% obvious in most games before the armies clash.
+1. Great post, I was going to post on here with a ton more content, but I've posted so many times in so many other places, I've stopped trying.
A piece of my view on it, is that the ghosts are like a 'platform' for late-game TvZ to be based on. It's the one unit that has a good chance against Zerg's three highest tier units, similar to the Marine against Zerg's T1 and T2.
It needs amazing micro to be OP though, above even the level of players like MMA and Mvp.
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EPT
