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I've been playing SC2 for about a month or so now, and I want to pick a race and start working more seriously on my builds and matchups. The following is an extract from my blog, and I'd appreciate the advice of more experienced gamers.
Preemptive edit: I know there is a tendancy to respond to the "help me pick a race" topics with "just pick the one you like and get on with it". Well that's easy enough, I really like the Terrans right now - although Protoss also seem really cool.
However, in this case I am considering two specific issues that I think may become long term problems, and I am hoping that more experienced gamers will be able to tell me whether these problems are real, or simply imagined.
As promised, I spent some time this weekend looking at how to extend the 3 Rax build after the push fails to knock an opponent out completely. I did not actually play many more ladder games, but I do have some more replays from before this weekend to post over the next few days or so.
Despite the lack of ladder matches this weekend, the mid-game exercise has been very useful, and it has focused my mind on some of the decisions I need to make.
How we got here.
While not exactly crushing my opponents, I have used the 3 Rax build with a certain degree of success. More importantly, though, I feel that the structure provided by the 3 Rax build has been giving me a framework with which to learn and improve.
Using the same build in every in matchup has given me benchmarks to measure myself against. I know that at time X I should have Y units and Z upgrades. Anything less than that is poor play, and my mechanics are at fault - that's a clear incentive to develop crisper play.
I also get to see a myriad of other strategies (ie, my opponents) measured against the known quantities of my own build, which helps me understand other builds and races, in addition to my own. Because the build is rigid, I've been forced to find micro solutions where I might otherwise have looked for macro solutions.
So all told, I'm very happy with where this approach has taken me, and I would whole heartedly recommend it to any other new player.
Why it's time to move on.
That said, I am starting to feel a little restless. I'm not going to pretend that I've reached the limits of the build, or that I'm playing it perfectly. Some people have taken 3 Rax all the way to Masters, and I am nowhere near that level. However, I am gaining enough experience to see the limits to 3 Rax, and to want focus on something else.
To begin with, 3 Rax is actually quite slow, with the early game is devoted to building infrastructure to support later troop production. A perfectly executed 4 Gate, for example, will hit at about 5:40, which is 2 whole minutes earlier than 3 Rax hits. At that stage, 3 Rax has about one Marine and one Marauder to fight of 4 Gate's 16+ supply army.
It's also quite hard to build on 3 Rax after the push. My testing this weekend shows me that I either need to cut unit production (which seems bad after losing a bunch of units, and also begs the question as to why I built so many production facilities in the first place) or actually tech up quite slowly, around the constant unit production.
That, in and of itself, is not actually too bad. After all, I would have a large army to fall back on. However, it's a large, one dimensional army. The units are not terribly mobile (no Medivacs), have little reach (no Tanks), and die fairly easily to AOE effects (all Bio). To top it off, I lack the ability to produce hard counters.
For this reason, I don't actually think that working on a mid-game for 3 Rax is the right approach; an all-in is probably better. And practicing all-ins exclusively is going to leave me as a fairly one dimensional player.
So, it's time for me to move on.
The Terran option.
After asking myself the "what next" question, I've got two potential answers. If I want to stick with Terrans, I would probably switch to a 1-1-1 build.
I'm actually really impressed by this build, as it unlocks so much fun stuff early in the game. While the early build does not change much between matches, the units produced can be customised to the enemy (Hellions against Zerg, etc), so it would be a step towards having completely different openings against each race.
The build also supports early aggression. A back of the envelope calculation would put a fast Medivac drop at about 5:40, the same time as an early 4 Gate. While unlikely to completely knock an opponent out, it does give me an early game focus and a way to apply pressure before expanding. I like that.
And because all the tech paths are unlocked early, it should be much easier to respond to specific threats with solid counters - getting early Thor's against Muta harass, for example.
All told, this is a build that looks like loads of fun.
The Terran problem.
It's not all kittens and rainbows in Terran-land, though. In fact, I have two specific long term worries about playing Terran: APM and the mirror match.
It is generally accepted (and backed up by tournament data) that each race, while being fairly well balanced and equally difficult (this is NOT an "X is easier than Y" post), requires/rewards different levels of APM. In particular, Protoss requires significantly less APM than Terran, which in turn requires slightly less APM than Zerg.
This makes sense, of course. When you look at Terran and Protoss, you can see that while Protoss probably requires more APM for base management (you Chronoboost twice as often as you MULE, and warping in units requires more button clicks than just ordering them from the Barracks), Terran units have more activated abilities than Protoss units. So in combat, while each side has casters that need to be controlled, Terrans are also doing a host of other things with their units that pushes their APM upwards.
The difficulty for me, though, is that I know that APM (especially spontaneous, rather than planned APM) is one of my big weaknesses as a gamer. That's why I suck at FPS games, but do rather better at games like EVE, which focus less on reflexes and more on understanding mechanics.
My fear is that I'm going to put a great deal of effort into learning to play Terran, only to find that I have a fairly low skill ceiling because my APM peaks too low.
My other concern is the TvT matchup. I've been watching some Day[9], and while every mirror matchup seems to involve scoring a series of small victories, TvT in particular seems to be a long, grinding game of Tank lines with harassment on the side. That kind of static play just does not appeal to me at all. Not even a little bit.
And yet that's likely to be about 1/3rd of my matches. Ugh.
The Protoss alternative.
If I want to step away from playing Terran, though, I could do something very similar to my 3 Rax practice with the Protoss 4 Gate. It's a strong opening (albeit not as overpowering as it once was) and it gives me those same benchmarks to measure myself against while becoming familiar with the new mechanics.
In addition to requiring lower APM than Terran, the PvP matchup since patch 1.4 seems like much more fun because each teir of their tech is viable, creating a certain "rocks-paper-scissors" feel to the unit compositions as each player tries to counter the other's army. This gives me the sense that there will be far more variance between PvP matches than you find in TvT.
What am I missing?
This feels like a big decision for me. After messing about with an intro strategy I want to start getting serious, but I've been putting off officially choosing a race for weeks now.
Any suggestions that are likely to tip the balance one way or the other?
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Play the one that you like the most and that's it man xD
Balance shouldn't enter in consideration choosing your race.
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Just choose your race by personal taste...balance issues are for really experienced players.
From my point of view you should go with Terran...cause there are not many Terran left on ladder,
Honestly i meet 1 Terran today out of 20 Ladder Matches -.- (Silver League here) :-)
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I see no reason for you to worry. You say your spontaneous APM is bad... but it won't be if you train. Pick terran, pick APM heavy strategies, practice them until they work, then check your APM again. Suddenly, APM will be your strength.
People spend so much time worrying about some innate talent which doesn't exist for anyone, getting good at SC2 is all about practicing and learning. You weren't born without the ability to do high APM, you just haven't trained it enough. Fortunately, it's not even hard to train, I went from 40 APM to 120 APM in BW from just learning to macro. In SC2, you won't get that high so easily, but using Macro Or Die and similar maps, I've gotten my EAPM to around 100 in SC2 and I peak at over 400. It's all about training.
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You should not chose about theoretical APM requirements for each race but if you want to play long term, you should think about the specificities of each race :
- Zerg is a counter-race, based on defense : you never dictate the game
- Protoss is defensive against T and agressive against Z
- Terran is an agressive race,you have to be active, pressure, harass, etc... on both matchups
You do not need massive APM to play SC2, no matter which race you play, it will be far less than in BW or even WC3.
Decision making is often the difference.
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Yeah, APM just increases naturally. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
You can always just mech, which (compared to every other playstyle) relies very little on speed and is all about making the right decisions. Of course, it's not the best against Protoss, but you said you wanted to 1-1-1 there so knock yourself out with that.
However, I think anyone wanting to be good should absolutely not shy away from areas they have issues with. The entire point of playing to improve is that you do things you're bad at. Simply avoiding them is not a good idea at all. If you think you have issues playing a specific style because of certain weaknesses that is the style you should be playing.
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I would say go with the 111, even while ignoring its blatent imbalance in certain matchups (TvP), it allows you to work on hellion drops and cloak banshee harrass etc, thus improving your one-base style to a level that is not just blind all-inning and thus will become viable even at masters level.
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TvT doesn't have to be a tank grind, but it's well worth learning to play the standard matchup because it teaches you a lot about macroing well, the importance of positioning and air dominance. Try iEchoic's build for a fun tankless alternative - it is quite tricky to pull off but if you're set on going tankless it's one of the best strats going.
I'd also recommend moving away from finding 'a build I can win with' (I know that's tempting when you're new) and towards scouting, predicting and reacting - again it's a tougher thing to learn but ultimately you'll be a better player for it. You're on the right track with 1-1-1 there. 3rax and 4Gate are all well and good, but they are kind of cheap 1-base strats that win on a single push or leave you massively behind if they fail. Here is a nice TvP opening that got me thinking a lot more about the importance of very early pokes and pressure and adapting your play according to what you see (good for micro practice too).
As I'm sure many people will tell you, APM's really not important until you get to the higher leagues. Use hotkeys for everything, practice a lot, and it'll go up naturally. Good macro and scouting will get you to gold at the very least.
As for what race to go with, play Terran follow your heart.
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Protoss is a pretty easy race if you like to do simple (all-in) builds.
But then again, terran is just as easy if you're going to do only 3rax and 1-1-1s as you said in OP.
Also, stop worrying about APM, unless you're at the top of the korean ladder, there's always something useful to do with your APM, whatever the race you are playing, and there's no "apm limitation" some races have and some other's don't. (for fun, I tried to win custom games with each race without more then 10-15 apm, you'd be surprised how many master players you can beat with just a clean execution of a build).
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Play each race and pick which is your favourite. Like everyone else has mentioned, APM and other factors won't be relevant until the higher leagues. Just keep playing and you'll improve.
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You're over thinking it. Play to have fun,
1-1-1 vs P is fun (whether the all-in variety or not)
999 rax-bunker cheese push vs Z if fun, so is 11-11 and so is reactor-hellion
TvT is shitty granted, so iEchoic or if you want the game over 3 rax all in with 12 scvs,
By the way not sure why 3 rax is only giving you 1 marine and 1 maurader at 5:40. with 1-1-1 i at least have a bunker with 4 marines so make sure you are not slipping on macro.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
One thing I've noticed is that my APM seemed to just go up depending on what race I play, in terms of how I enjoyed it. I used to Random, but have now switched to Toss full time, because I enjoyed played all 3 MUs as Toss. And as a random tangent, my APM was higher since I felt like I knew where it should be going (totally wrong, but at least I wasn't sitting around being confused!)
I think if you enjoy the match-up enough, your APM will naturally go up. But it should not be a deciding factor.
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Do you want to become a pro?
No? Pick the race which is the most fun to you! Why?
-) APM doesn't matter if you're not Pro. You will get to 50-100 "blizzard"-APM average pretty soon. Everything is playable up to masters with that!
-) You're gonna have the most fun with that race.
-) Zerg can be pretty fun as well, so probably consider that as well.
Yes?
Pick Terran. Not due to any imbalances, but Terran is the least volatile race imo. Long runs in tournaments against weaker players are therefore way easier.
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TvT doesn't have to always be a tank fest, although it did seem like that at the start for me. My opinion is that it's the best of the mirror matchups to play (I can't stand ZvZ, as it is so volatile and different from SC2 as a whole), PvP is fun to watch at a pro level, especially when blink stalkers are involved, but seems really frustrating to actually play. With the bigger maps, you can go bio, but you would need to play an expand based game, and not focus on getting 3 rax with stim early. I know one person on here who made 3 rax work at higher level, but it really does cripple your economy and non-barracks tech so much, that it should be regarded as an all-in strategy to use if you scout a very quick expo etc.
Edit: thinking back, I didn't enjoy doing 3 rax when it was my default strat. I think it's build-and-hope, rather than react and counter. I enjoyed winning the games, but not the games themselves that much. You might enjoy Terran more once you are comfortable with other strats.
If you've been playing for a month, and this is your first RTS, then your APM will improve eventually. I've only been playing since retail, and am only at about 80-90 blizzard APM, but it has slowly crept up (am Gold with Zerg and Plat with Terran). Strangely, as an FPS player for many years, I can jump straight back in to a game of quakelive and feel quite competitive, whereas after a year of SC2, my units still don't do what I'm trying to tell them, I missclick, get flustered etc. I think what you are used to, and what you have experience with really helps, so it might be best to just chose whatever race, and not feel like you have to compensate for a low APM (which is only natural if you've not played much).
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On January 23 2012 21:56 Geiko wrote:
Protoss is a pretty easy race if you like to do simple (all-in) builds.
But then again, terran is just as easy if you're going to do only 3rax and 1-1-1s as you said in OP.
Also, stop worrying about APM, unless you're at the top of the korean ladder, there's always something useful to do with your APM, whatever the race you are playing, and there's no "apm limitation" some races have and some other's don't. (for fun, I tried to win custom games with each race without more then 10-15 apm, you'd be surprised how many master players you can beat with just a clean execution of a build).
10-15 APM is impossible unless you cheese, you would lose because of lack of units since just building units will easily get you over 20 APM.
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On January 23 2012 22:22 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 21:56 Geiko wrote:
Protoss is a pretty easy race if you like to do simple (all-in) builds.
But then again, terran is just as easy if you're going to do only 3rax and 1-1-1s as you said in OP.
Also, stop worrying about APM, unless you're at the top of the korean ladder, there's always something useful to do with your APM, whatever the race you are playing, and there's no "apm limitation" some races have and some other's don't. (for fun, I tried to win custom games with each race without more then 10-15 apm, you'd be surprised how many master players you can beat with just a clean execution of a build). 10-15 APM is impossible unless you cheese, you would lose because of lack of units since just building units will easily get you over 20 APM.
That was using standard 4 gate and a moving my units.
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If you haven't tried all the flavors, I am agreeing with the general consensus and suggesting you to play Random for at least one ladder season. You'll have fun learning all the races, and understand how the game works and the mechanics of all matchups. This will give you a deeper appreciation if you enjoy watching the professionals play in big tournaments. For the longest time, I had no idea what to dissect from a top level Code S Protoss vs Zerg, so I decided to play Zerg for a little while (after already having a lot of experience with both Protoss and Terran) and afterward gained a lot of respect for Zerg players in their view of Protoss. Just like in TvP, playing as Terran you must scout aggressively and micro your heart out... Zerg has to be just as vigilant, but less in terms of army and more into "agressive" economy. The whole why you should pool before hatch first because of cannon rushing the natural off of a forge expand I was clueless to. Also I was clueless to what to think about busting down a forge fast expand and all that stuff. After playing Zerg for a while, it's a much delicate matchup just as Terran is with Protoss and having smart scouting paths and persistent poking will force you to learn playing like that is valuable to all races. It also helps you when you switch back to Protoss and play against a Zerg because you will know all the basic timings and what to expect.
Basically, you learn more about the game as a whole, and have a deeper appreaciation playing as Random for a while.
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you should probably stick with terran, since it sounds like toss would be waay too easy for you... 
But really, as people say: just choose the one you find the most fun.
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On January 23 2012 22:25 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 22:22 Tobberoth wrote:On January 23 2012 21:56 Geiko wrote:
Protoss is a pretty easy race if you like to do simple (all-in) builds.
But then again, terran is just as easy if you're going to do only 3rax and 1-1-1s as you said in OP.
Also, stop worrying about APM, unless you're at the top of the korean ladder, there's always something useful to do with your APM, whatever the race you are playing, and there's no "apm limitation" some races have and some other's don't. (for fun, I tried to win custom games with each race without more then 10-15 apm, you'd be surprised how many master players you can beat with just a clean execution of a build). 10-15 APM is impossible unless you cheese, you would lose because of lack of units since just building units will easily get you over 20 APM. That was using standard 4 gate and a moving my units.
That's pretty hilarious. Still, 1 action to select warp gates, one action for every unit you place, extra actions when switching which unit you're building.. so it should be at least 6 actions per warpin, which you probably do more than once a minute. Adding the a-move to that should add enough actions to push it over 10. That said, I seriously doubt a master player would lose to a 10 APM 4gate ^^
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I would say that Protoss is mostly about decion making and good forcefields etc. so this can fit for low apm player, Terran in other hand can be done with low apm (I remember seeing some thread here on TL where some Terran reached Masters just with 35 ish apm), but good micro and high apm gives huge edge as terran, so if you want to reach full potential of Terran you should learn to be faster
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Mid Masters Terran here, I think you are overstating both of your concerns. I won't write a long post since this has probably been covered, but will simply add in my opinion to give you some more to work with.
1. APM - Mine is about 60-70 blizzard APM (like what you can see when you watch a replay) on average throughout any length of game. To be fair, I don't really spam and I think my APM is very "effective" (not multiple clicking to the same place, that sort of thing). Suffice to say though, that apm isn't very high, and I have achieved a decent level of play (mid masters) and beat players of higher APM than me consistently.
2. TvT - I really enjoy this match up and it is not always a tank fest and a long game (to be fair, it is sometimes, and probably moreso at higher levels). But, not always, and the wide variety of strategies I think keeps this pretty fresh.
If you like Terran, go with it.
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just work on prioritizing good macro, around diamond is where you want to employ more stratrgy, timings, etc.
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TvT isn't really about tank lines anymore.
With that said, if what turns you off about TvT is positional play, you shouldn't really be playing terran anyway, they are by far the most positionally dependent race.
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Starcraft is a game about improving so i don't see any need to choose the race by its APM. I suggest to play either random or every race for a longer term to determine which one brings the most FUN for you. Don't worry much about the difficulty, you can become good with every race and the difference in the difficulty is smaller than most people are saying.
So, as the others already said, follow your heart and play what you like
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Just pick the race you like the most right now!
I did the same ...
I started with Protoss went over to play Zerg and finally I´m Terran.
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Try watching some tournament casts and let yourself be inspired, otherwise you wont have mich motivation to practice your race. Out of curiosity what league are you? Certain races will require more APM as you get higher in certain matchups so don't let apm ceilings limit you. Barring physical handicap, practice will bring your APM up. In addition plaing more macro-oriented will help improve your interest in each race and APM as well... imo lower league starcraft 2 is all about defending (because everyone does 1-base allins). Good macro is hard to come by and playing macro games will be more open ended and exciting to play.
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Dont pick a race exclusively because of difficulty in mechanics. Don't pick a strategy because of the ease of execution. Pick a race you like, a strategy you'd enjoy, and practice.
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The highest APM players in the GSL right now are all Protoss. So. ACtually you are just kind of wrong about the APM thing, I don't think that's generally accepted at all.
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How many games have you played as Terran? I must have played 50-100 games as Zerg before I got over my Terran/Protoss envy and started to realise how bloody awesome my own race was.
Plus if you don't envisage playing at a high level, your APM ceiling won't matter that much. If you're enjoying Terran play, just stick with it. Maybe try an expand build instead of a 1 base timing push?
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Terran and Zerg, to play really well, both require pretty high APM. Terran will be more spikey where Zerg will be more consistent in your action spending. There is a widely spread myth that Zerg requires a ton more APM than the other races because of inject and tumor spreading but the fact remains Terran and Protoss still need to spend actions to build depots and cycle production buildings to produce units.
I wouldn't let your personal APM be the determining factor because it really doesn't matter. Getting to Masters with low APM is probably easiest with Protoss but Protoss requires very specific APM and positioning in battle. There really isn't an "easier" race to play.
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The best advise is to stick with the race you like... Don't focus too much on APM, it will improve alone.
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Terran requires the most APM simply because of the way their macro works and because of the fact that every Terran unit needs micro to be cost effective. In all 3 matchups you usually lose the game instantly if you are not looking at your army when a battle starts. There is a reason that Terrans are rare compared to the other two races at low-to-mid Masters on the ladder. TvT is a difficult matchup but personally I love it because it makes a ton of sense - it is a pretty pure measure of RTS skill.
Just play Protoss until you get to Masters, they're a good beginner race. Strong timings, easy to understand units, easy macro that gets you into the habit of constantly building workers, etc.
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I think you should pick zerg as low apm race.
Zerg has alot of actions but manny of thoose actions make only little difference (this is not my own find btw, a thread has been posted about this a while ago on this forum)
You can basicly skip all thoose tiny actions and still get a decent result by only performing the important actions.
The important actions wich cant be skipped in zerg require less apm then the important actions for the other races so i would go for zerg
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Protoss is your race
Step1.) Mass Army
Step2.) A Move
Step3.) Win
Now go have fun !
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On January 24 2012 04:38 Rassy wrote:I think you should pick zerg as low apm race. Zerg has alot of actions but manny of thoose actions make only little difference (this is not my own find btw, a thread has been posted about this a while ago on this forum) You can basicly skip all thoose tiny actions and still get a decent result by only performing the important actions. The important actions wich cant be skipped in zerg require less apm then the important actions for the other races so i would go for zerg
Obviously spoken by someone who has NEVER played zerg in any great length,
Zerg is a recationary race that requries high APM if you ever plan on going past Plat, You have to have good decision making skills, along with never missing injects, spreading creep, upgrading, and micro'ing muta's if you go the muta route. I haven't read the other thread but speaking from a low-mid zerg masters standpoint, it almost feels like I can never have enough APM, to each there own I guess tho,
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On January 24 2012 05:01 rustypipe wrote:
Protoss is your race
Step1.) Mass Army
Step2.) A Move
Step3.) Win
Now go have fun !
Maybe that works for bronzies and BW. From silver to diamond, terran stim a-move rules all.
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On January 23 2012 21:44 DePHIB wrote:
You should not chose about theoretical APM requirements for each race but if you want to play long term, you should think about the specificities of each race :
- Zerg is a counter-race, based on defense : you never dictate the game
- Protoss is defensive against T and agressive against Z
- Terran is an agressive race,you have to be active, pressure, harass, etc... on both matchups
You do not need massive APM to play SC2, no matter which race you play, it will be far less than in BW or even WC3.
Decision making is often the difference.
Lol less then war3 what are you smoking
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If the question is what race requires the least APM? Then definately protoss as their mechanics, macro and builds are the easiest to execute.
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Pick which race you feel more compelled to play, and mechanics like speed or APM will come with practice.
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Another tip if you want to rely less on Terran micro is to pick a greedier build, like 1rax FE. The logic being that provided you can stay alive at the start, you can afford to be somewhat careless with your army because hey, you've got loads more stuff than him.
http://drop.sc/96720 the first game I basically did a FE on the fly after noticing he had a bunker up. It felt way more like my Zerg games tbh, which is awesome. The thing I like most is it puts the pressure back on your opponent to win the game, as long as you have that one base advantage.
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I'm sorry but if you a-move marines or stalkers in diamond or higher, you're pretty much fucked.
I see Terran and protoss as the same. The only difference is warpgate, if you want to sacrifice that extra apm to look at the screen and click for every warpgate unit, for that mobility of warping in anywhere with pylon power. Then protoss is for you. All terran units are queued, macro-able with only hotkeys (no screentime, no left click). Where only toss air and robo are follow that mechanic.
As for other macro, both toss and terran have building placement requirement (walling, pylon power, addon spacing) taht require your attention. Both require frequent macro apm (chrono boost, mules), if you ignore either, you're making yourself lose.
There no 1-click victory in high level games. Colossus gets so easily picked out by marauders or vikings. You have to constantly move them away. Too close and they die; too far and they're out of range while your ground army is dying.
Zeal/immortal/stalker balls can't be a-moved. They have to be sandwiched and distanced specifically so that zealots aren't getting lured and picked out. Or stalkers aren't tanking marauders with immortals in the back trying to be a dragoon.
Marines are just shit if you don't micro them. They form the stupid arc and c-block themselves if you don't aggressive stutter step. Siege tanks are self explanatory, they're meant to be used sieged and you need to unsiege and move every one of them individually so that they don't actually fail.
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Protoss has a slight advantage in dropping. While a medivac heals mm that are dropped in your base, a phase prism drop cannot be estimated. If a warp prism goes into your base, you don't know how much forces to pull back. It could be 4 zealots, but it could also be 2 immortals with 4 zealots and a later 4 stalkers.
In high level when players can see observers, Terran has better scouting (not map control). It's harder to hit a Terran while they expand than it is to hit a Protoss.
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Terran is slightly more reaction based than Protoss in TvP. It's the Ghost : Viking composition based on Protoss' Colossi : HT/Archon count. Getting too many vikings is a waste as they aren't that good in ground mode. Ghosts vs Colossi is painful to watch.
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I'd like to thank everyone for the excellent advice; it certainly gave me a wider perspective on the game.
All things being equal, I'd want to play Terran. If APM is only going to be an issue at the highest levels, and there are some (very interesting looking) alternatives to Tank based TvT, then I think I'll stick with the plucky humans.
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Go Terran. It's really getting a rare breed the terran player. To some extent I'm fine, because I'm in the "hatin' TvT" group. But then you meet one, and you forget what are you supposed to do. Not to mention the oshit reaper opening, oshit rushed cloaked banshee (or the hellion+marine push I start to see more lately).
Anyway, while a higher APM will result in better success, you won't need to be a very fast player to progress. Most of games are won just because you were able to keep up with economy+making stuff while attacking etc. Even spreading marines vs banelings isn't as intensive as some make it look (and I mean decent spreading, because yeah, there is always room for better).
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After I read your post. It seems to me that zerg would be the easiest for you.
Terran has the hardest micro and spontaneous reaction timing. Protoss mostly just need fast reaction when placing force fields.
Zerg on the other hand dont need this super fast reaction timing.
If you want 1a2a3a just go for zerg or protoss. I dont know what else to say.
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298 Posts
3rax all-in is suitable vs all races, but that's when you play it as an all-in.
I would try to find different strategies for the different matchups, I've played Terran casually since May last year (sub 200 games on ladder) and I started off playing 1 style for all races and trying to adapt it and I was just having no luck with it when I started to face silver and gold players. That was the 3rax and then I had tweaked versions of iEchoics 2fact2port for each race.
Since I swapped to different builds for each race I've noticed a much better improvement in my mechanics, APM and my awareness. When you play 1 build all the time it's easy to get a bit of tunnel vision and you don't want to switch tech paths or your BO when you should.
atm I play:
+ Show Spoiler +TvZ Marine Only (1rax FE, with very aggressive harassment with drops, fast upgrades and lots of expanding (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268427) TvP 2 Ghost Timing Push (1 rax FE into 3rax, all normal bio upgrades off TLs, get ghost lab about 44food and push when ghosts have energy for EMP and all TL upgrades are done, don't have a BO for it online that I know but I could inbox you mine) TvT 2port banshee all-in, this matchup is my bugbear and I am working on something more solid. Marine/Hellion elevator is a great 1/1/1 opening that I was having some success with, I think I need to get better at it, find that here: http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456
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Terran requires more APM than protoss, but go with your preference.
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Flip a coin. Terran is heads, Protoss is tails. After you toss the coin in the air, you will know which side you want it to land on.
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I think on a whole, if you want to really commit to being a player and getting good, all three races require pretty high APM. I didn't see a mention of any medical reason you have low APM (nervous disorders, etc), so it IS possible to train you hand speed though repetition. If you've done the same stutter step micro 1000x, it's goign to get faster all the time; if you practice drops and macroing and army positioning, eventually you WILL be able to have the speed/multitask to do all 3 at once, and eventually you'll be able to add a second drop in there and be able to control all 4.
Like you said, though, everyone just says pick one you like. If you're worried about speed and aren't able/willing to work on improving that part of your game, I think both terran and protoss can play a bit slower than zerg. I think on a high level (mid+ master) Terran requires a bit more speed (You NEED to be active with dropships while moving around the map and macroing; period, where protoss can play a bit more passively, although there are styles that require a lot of multitask). Like I said though, it is really very possible to train your speed through repetition, so if there isn't a reason medically to have low speed, through practice you can and will get faster, so if you do enjoy Terran the most, go for it.
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On January 25 2012 08:59 NoisyNinja wrote:
Flip a coin.[...] After you toss the coin [...]
Sneaky. ^^
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Terran is going to require far more APM as they have to constantly be on the offensive. That includes drops, pokes, army positioning and an insane amount more micro when you are engaging a toss. Don't get me wrong, toss has some micro like FF and storms, but terran has ghosts, stim, stutter, splitting, and storm doging to do all at once. If APM is honestly the only thing holding you back here then I'd say go toss. If you are confiedent that you can improve, terran gives you a bit better control but only if you have the skill to do it.
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You all talk about apm like it was a natural born skill that cannot be improved or whatever... Seriously, I am not a good player but in any sport this point of view is like the worst way to train...
We re not talking about 300 APM here... There are masters T with 50 / 60 blizz APM... Everyone can reach this with a bit of training...
You will never need to click manually 15 rax and produce a single unit on each one like on BW...
Choosing a race by supposing your own limitations is something really bad for me. You won't achieve anything in life if you make your choices by evaluating your limitations.
Look replays, streams, play random, and pick the race you want to play because you are attracted by it and by mastering it. It will come naturally, then stick to it, no matter the difficulties, and improve.
And if you re limited to 20 apm by physical reasons, you should consider playing something that is non real time...
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Why do people overthink this stuff so much. Just play random until you get to plat and then pick whichever race you like the most.
If you don't like it, you can always switch later.
EDIT: New post count spells Leet XD
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I've played all 3 races to at least diamond level and objectively speaking, Terran is the hardest and most apm intensive in general, with protoss the easiest, but it varies from matchup to matchup; I would say TvT is the easiest of all mirror matchups, with TvP being the hardest of them all, followed by TvZ. A large part of terran apm goes into base management and micro/control (given that micro rewards T the most). When you factor in other stuff like getting the correct unit composition - this is hardest to achieve IMO among all 3 races - and macro terran becomes hard beyond one/two base play revolving around allins imo despite what everyone says. Protoss is easier in general but PvP can be really micro intensive and decision-making intensive.
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Oh no - this is almost turning into people arguing which race is the easiest. Lets face it - all races can do low apm turtle for high tech deathball - brood/infestor or collosus/templar or mech (TvP is the only match-up where this approach doesn't work at pro level - it will still work in lower leagues), just as all races can do high-multitasking aggression should they choose to.
Basically - whether u need lots of apm depends on how you choose to play the race rather than what race you choose. I play protoss but because of my love for stargate harrass I very often end up with good 20 or 30 more apm than my terran or zerg opponents.
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play the race you were meant to play. find it in your heart and choose what is in your blood.
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On January 25 2012 23:59 radiantshadow92 wrote:
play the race you were meant to play. find it in your heart and choose what is in your blood.
Yeah I'd say play what you really want to play and improve on it from there,
for instance I play Zerg even tho Blizzard CONSTANTLY continues to make a mockery of a once great race.
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I agree with what everyone said about not picking a race by APM. Pick the race you have the most fun with, otherwise you will get tired of the game sooner. Personally I wish I stuck with playing Zerg first over Terran and Protoss second, now I find it difficult to switch because of lack of playtime. Going Bio all the time will get to you after a thousand games, mech is too situational and optional at best.
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On January 23 2012 20:56 Eltanin wrote:
Some people have taken 3 Rax all the way to Masters, and I am nowhere near that level. However, I am gaining enough experience to see the limits to 3 Rax, and to want focus on something else.
To begin with, 3 Rax is actually quite slow, with the early game is devoted to building infrastructure to support later troop production. A perfectly executed 4 Gate, for example, will hit at about 5:40, which is 2 whole minutes earlier than 3 Rax hits. At that stage, 3 Rax has about one Marine and one Marauder to fight of 4 Gate's 16+ supply army.
You are troubleshooting your issues with 3rax rather well. I'm glad you realize that there are some situations where you can't set the pace of the game and need to respond. You just need to try things and see what works. Ask the strategy forum for suggestions when you hit a wall. Pro replays are also great, but I'm not sure how many pro's 3rax anymore. It sounds like your problems with terran are trivial.
APM doesn't matter so much. Almost everyone I play has an APM between 40-90 on the Blizzard counter (i'm plat zerg). Sometimes I'll even lose to someone in the 30's. Hell, I've lost 20 minute zvz's to 30 apm players. Increased APM is a benefit from constant practice, so take it worth a grain of salt. I have 95 APM, which should be enough to get me to masters easily, but skill is NOT proportional to how fast you click your mouse. For the most part, it's another number people use to measure their e-penis.
I'm sure people HAVE taken 3rax to masters, but it doesn't mean you will. I've been encountering a lot of terrans who 3rax recently and I don't have much difficulty holding it off. Sure, the terrans are often good enough to turtle up on two bases and make a scary 3/3 max marine/tank/medivac army. Even if I have 6 bases I could still lose with one poor engagement.
A friend of mine, for instance, just made masters this season. He also plays zerg and relies heavily on 2 base macro-oriented attacks, all-in'ing every zvz, and almost never scouting. It's a gimmicky way to play the race (all opponent has to do is hold big attack and delay very late third), but he plays it very well. Most importantly, he is having fun and I'm not about to rain on that parade.
Sounds like you want to give 1-1-1 a try. Go for it. You're going to need to practice it well and learn the same "troubleshooting steps" you follow now. I personally think that strategy is annoying as hell to deal with (which means my opponent probably loves it!).
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Protoss and it's not even close.
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i'd recommend protoss if you want to get better asap
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Protoss if you're only planning on staying in Bronze-Diamond. If you wanna play vs anyone competent, you should go for Terran. Once you know how to macro and play out a build order, you'll easily be in masters with Terran.
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On January 26 2012 02:35 Dauntless wrote:
Once you know how to macro and play out a build order, you'll easily be in masters with Terran.
Isn't it the same with protoss? Once you know how to macro and play out a bo, you can get master with every race.
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if your worried about apm it gets better with time. i got this game like 3 months ago and my apm(pre apm patch) was like 40-50 avg for a game and now its usually 70-80. the better u get at knowing wat u need to do, when to do it, and most importanly why your doing it, your apm increases.
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This thread has devolved into a ridiculous balance discussion, and everyone is simply stating one race is imba or another race is imba, and to be honest its just flat out pathetic. The races are balanced until GSL level, which is in other words none of us. OP pick whatever race you like the most.
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EPT
